Mormons: DNA Shows that Native North Americans were Never Jewish. What is your Response to This?

[Jose Fly]

I have 26 posts on this thread. No one has responded to the main points I've made, although a great many have attempted to flat out disregard the facts I have presented. In case anybody's interested, they are numbers 10, 11, 13, 44, 45, 46, 47, 49, 50, 52, 70, 73, 77, 81, 85, 86, 90, 91, 92, 100, 101, 129, 130, 131, 133 and 134.

The initial premise as stated in the OP is flawed. I already explained that, but it has been ignored for 162 posts. I'm not holding my breath, expecting anything to change at this point.

Recreate history much?

The evidence and issues you left unaddressed were numerous and substantial. In looking back over our conversation, it seems clear that:

1) There is no standard of accuracy for Mormon prophets or their statements;

2) The term "Lamanites" can mean either ancient Israelites who came to N. America, built enormous civilizations, "covered the face of the earth", but left absolutely no trace of themselves, or it can mean "Native Americans" without any link to the ancient Israelites at all (depending on convenience to the Mormon at the time);

3) Roughly 4 generations is sufficient time for a population to shed all genetic traces of its ancestry (SNP's, CNV's, microsats, mtDNA markers); and

4) Introductions to the Book of Mormon are based on mere assumption, including parts written by alleged Mormon prophets.

That's just a sample, but covers the primary issues. It's amusing to see the level of back peddling the faithful will engage in to avoid admitting obvious, fundamental flaws within their belief system.

 

[Apex]

No one here is comparing members. Katzpur. neither myself nor Autodidact would spend a good portion of the evening debating you if we thought that it is costing a valuable portion of our time.
This is a religious debate forum. and for any religious (or social and political) beliefs that we are confronted with, and which we recognise to be unconstructive we will debate. it is of course the reason, why we log on and spend time on the forum. to sharpen our understanding of current and historical religious and political affairs.

Caladan, as much as I like your posts in other parts of the forums, when it comes to this topic you really just turn into an *******. I am sorry, but that is the truth. You were treating Katz like a total piece of ****.

 

[Caladan]

Caladan, as much as I like your posts in other parts of the forums, when it comes to this topic you really just turn into an *******. I am sorry, but that is the truth. You were treating Katz like a total piece of ****.

Apex. although I understand where you are coming from. this is how we debate in real life in universities in central Israel. its not going to change. if we see an anti constructive argument will tear both the argument and the person apart. this is how you do science or history.
This is a religious debate forum. members need to get used to it, and think really hard what they came here for. to hold at all costs at archaic an unrealistic beliefs which harm the rest of us and our societies or to actually debate, no terms made. but go straight head to head with your intellect weapons and the sheer amount of information you laboured on physically and mentally.
There isn't really any other way that I know of. and I am not willing to compromise on my knowledge or experience.
especially when revisionism of my nation is involved. this is sacred war as far as I am concerned.

 

[Autodidact]

Caladan, as much as I like your posts in other parts of the forums, when it comes to this topic you really just turn into an *******. I am sorry, but that is the truth. You were treating Katz like a total piece of ****.

What sparked this disproportionate, rude and rule-violating response?

 

[Frank Merton]

The current prophet is supposed to continue to receive revelations from God. So when a given policy or theology is damaging enough to the church, and enough political pressure is applied, he gets a revelation to change it.

That seems unnecessarily cynical. While I can imagine a religious institution changing positions under political pressure, the inference of caving you seem to make is excessive.

Can anyone tell me examples of where the Mormons have done this?

 

[waitasec]

That seems unnecessarily cynical. While I can imagine a religious institution changing positions under political pressure, the inference of caving you seem to make is excessive.

Can anyone tell me examples of where the Mormons have done this?

i can think of two..
racism and polygamy

 

[Katzpur]

That seems unnecessarily cynical. While I can imagine a religious institution changing positions under political pressure, the inference of caving you seem to make is excessive.

Can anyone tell me examples of where the Mormons have done this?

I had previously stated that I did not intend to continue to post on this thread. With respect to the question posed by the OP, my decision still stands. Since this question is on another topic entirely, I will respond with two examples that others will likely raise if I don't.

1. Polygamy. The Church officially discontinued the practice of polygamy shortly before Utah was granted statehood, following a lengthy period of persecution. At the time the Mormon pioneers settled in the Great Basin in 1847, the practice was just beginning. There were no federal laws against it at that time. At its peak, perhaps 5% of all Mormon men had more than one wife, and no one was forced into the practice. At any rate, the practice was discontinued primarily due to threats of imprisonment of the men, and the confiscation of both Church and personal property by the federal government. In short, had the practice not been discontinued when it was, the Church would simply have ceased to exist. What has become known as the "Manifesto" was issued in 1893, discontinuing the practice.

2. Blacks and the Priesthood. While membership in the Church has always been open to anyone, for a number of years, men of African American ancestory were prohibited from holding the Church's lay priesthood. The Church was under considerable pressure to change this policy (which I do not personally believe to have been divinely instituted in the first place) in the early 1960's. Non-Mormons saw the ban as being a civil rights issue. Members of the Church, on the other hand, did not believe the laws of the land should dictate Church policy. Over the next fifteen years, however, pressure from the outside died down considerably. By the time the ban was lifted in 1978, political pressure was pretty much a non-issue. That was so much the case, in fact, that the announcement came as quite a surprise to everybody, both within and outside of the Church.

 

[Rakhel]

To the best of my knowledge, the only group still claiming that Native Americans are Jewish is the Hebrew Israelites.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

To the best of my knowledge, the only group still claiming that Native Americans are Jewish is the Hebrew Israelites.

What do you mean by "Hebrew Israelites"?

I remember reading on a group of African Americans who were the followers of Malachi Z. York (now in prison) who kind of made this claim as well. They, he and his followers, would dress in Indian garb. Later they started to identify themselves more with Egyptian.

 

[Rakhel]

Sorry should have said Black Hebrew Israelites
Black Hebrew Israelites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Sorry should have said Black Hebrew Israelites
Black Hebrew Israelites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh yes.... I'm kind of familiar with them as well. I knew a man who considered himself a (Black Hebrew Israelite). I've seen a few youtube videos of their ideology as well. Thanks.....

 

[Rakhel]

Oh yes.... I'm kind of familiar with them as well. I knew a man who considered himself a (Black Hebrew Israelite). I've seen a few youtube videos of their ideology as well. Thanks.....

No problem

 

[Caladan]

To the best of my knowledge, the only group still claiming that Native Americans are Jewish is the Hebrew Israelites.

rakhel, you need to read the last exchange of posts in this thread.
we deny that any Middle eastern Jews made their way to North America. even if it was an elite rebel group from the Judean hills which numbered in four people.

 

[Rakhel]

rakhel, you need to read the last exchange of posts in this thread.
we deny that any Middle eastern Jews made their way to North America. even if it was an elite rebel group from the Judean hills which numbered in four people.

NO, actually I don't. When I spoke of Hebrew Israelites I was not referring to Jews. I was referring to a group who are calling themselves Hebrew Israelites who use Mormon ideas to boast their claims that they are the true Israelites as apposed to the European Jews who they claim are actually Khazar.
Finish reading my posts before you assume I know not what I speak of.
Black Hebrew Israelites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PS There are a few of them in Arid, Israel.

 

[Katzpur]

I was referring to a group who are calling themselves Hebrew Israelites who use Mormon ideas to boast their claims that they are the true Israelites as apposed to the European Jews who they claim are actually Khazar.
Finish reading my posts before you assume I know not what I speak of.
Black Hebrew Israelites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's nothing in this article relating to Mormonism, rakhel. The churches mentioned in the article aren't even related to the LDS Church. I'm confused.

 

[Caladan]

NO, actually I don't. When I spoke of Hebrew Israelites I was not referring to Jews. I was referring to a group who are calling themselves Hebrew Israelites who use Mormon ideas to boast their claims that they are the true Israelites as apposed to the European Jews who they claim are actually Khazar.
Finish reading my posts before you assume I know not what I speak of.
Black Hebrew Israelites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PS There are a few of them in Arid, Israel.

And you need to read my posts more carefully. because this was not the main point of it. the 'Black Hebrew Israelites' are secondary. as we are discussing the Mormon belief that a small number of Jews made their way to North America, and interbred with the local Native Americans. which is of course one of the main issues of this debate. as Katzpur is working hard to remind people who stray off topic.
While myself, and I believe that Autodidact as well. utterly dismiss the claim that any Jews, even a single Jewish man, made their way to North America sometime in the Iron Age.

 

[Rakhel]

Sheesh you and your superiority complex need to get off your high-horse, Caladan. I know what the thread is about. I CAN AND DO read.

Katzpur, I know that article has nothing to do with Mormonism. However, what you and Caladan failed to see was my first post in this thread.
Caladan is just refusing to admit he made a mistake. To admit he might be wrong about what i have to say is, much like he views me, beneath him.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur, I know that article has nothing to do with Mormonism.

Sorry, I apologize. I guess I misunderstood what you were saying. That's why I was confused.

 

[Rakhel]

I believe that that group participates in replacement theology. They took important aspects of Judaism, Christianity, and any other religion they came across and laid claim. Old Mormon view is that native Americans are Jewish. This is the view of this other group. That was what I was saying.

 

[gnostic]

Leaving aside the DNA and genetics for the moment.

Of all, the Western Semitic people living in the coastal regions in ancient time, the Israelites were never known as a seafaring nation. The Israelites were unlike their northern neighbor, the Phoenicians. I seriously don't think the Israelites could possibly sailed to the North American continent, let alone, have the technology to build ships capable to traverse the Atlantic.