• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Mormons: DNA Shows that Native North Americans were Never Jewish. What is your Response to This?

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
No, that’s not what I am debating at all. Look, I know you are of Jewish descent yourself, but I really haven’t read enough of your posts to know if you are even a theist. If you are, and if you believe in the Abrahamic God, you would have to concede that there are many Old Testament stories that simply cannot be proven to have ever happened. There isn’t even any historical evidence to support the Exodus.
This is correct. Large parts of the OT appear to be false as well. Obviously, this makes the Mormon theological position even worse.

Another point is that at least the OT stuff is supposed to have happened thousands of years ago. It's more difficult to establish for certain exactly what did happen. The BoM is set more recently, so its factual falsity is more dramatic and clear.
As a theist, a Christian and a Latter-day Saint, I believe that with God’s help, Lehi’s voyage would not have been impossible, but I have never claimed it could be proven to have happened any more than I have claimed that Moses turned the waters of the Nile into blood or that God spoke to him from a burning bush. I’m sorry if I’m not debating what you want me to debate, but the topic of the OP concerns DNA evidence for the Book of Mormon and that’s all it concerns.
You are welcome to believe all sort of things, no matter how ridiculous. That is not the same as claiming they are true, or that anyone else should believe them. (which of course, the Mormon Church does every day all over the world, in the person of pairs of young men carrying black backpacks and riding bicycles.) Not only can it not be proven to have happened, it can easily be proven NOT to have happened.
You didn’t answer my question. I’ll repeat it. I asked you to assume, for the sake of argument, that two Middle-Eastern families actually had migrated here 2600 years, and to tell me why scientists would expect today's population of Native Americans to carry the genetic markers of these individuals.
But there's a lot more in the book than that, isn't there? There are millions of descendants (itself impossible, of course, according to population studies) who fill up the land from sea to sea, and who die by the tens of thousands in huge battles fought with swords and chariots. None of these things left a trace of evidence, either genetic or archeological.
We haven’t made any archeological or genetic claims. That’s what you seem to be missing. The Book of Mormon is not an archeological or genetic document any more than the Bible is.
Is it supposed to be factual?
It is a religious text. If we were to say that DNA evidence proves the American Indians to be descendants of ancient Middle-Easterners, you would have the right to demand evidence, but we haven’t done that. If we had claimed that certain archeological finds were ancient Book of Mormon ruins, it would be entirely logical for you to ask for proof, but we haven’t done that either.
Are you saying the entire BoM is one long allegory, and none of the events in it actually happened? If so, we're in agreement.
There you go again with this condescending, superior attitude. Why, Caladan? Aside from believing differently than you, what have I done to deserve this unabashed contempt?
Perhaps it is a fair question, even if it is off-topic. Here’s my answer: According to the Book of Mormon, the Lord said to Nephi, “inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall be led to a land of promise; yea, even a land which I have prepared for you; yea, a land which is choice above all other hands.” Now, having responded to your question, I am going to ask you a second time to respond to mine. I believe it is an equally fair question: If two Native American families plus one single Native American male had migrated to the Middle East 2600 years ago and had intermarried with the native Middle-Eastern population, would anybody today claim that the Middle East was settled by the Native Americans? Would you expect to see DNA evidence to support such a claim?
One of the problems with this modern, odd interpretation of the BoM, adopted only after science disproved any possibility of the standard view, is that the BoM itself never mentions any native peoples, or intermarrying with them.

Obviously, if you travel to a foreign land and meet and become as one with the people there, you would mention that.

And of course, the land described in the BoM does not match America in any particular, whether flora, fauna, resources, technology, agriculture, language, customs or any other way.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I think it’s the position of most educated Mormons now.
Don't know, haven't taken a poll. It's certainly a dramatic departure from the historic position of the Mormon Church.
Joseph Smith undoubtedly believed that which he wrote on the title page of the Book of Mormon. It is not found anywhere within the text of the book nor did he claim it as revelation. It merely represented what he personally felt to be an accurate statement. Turns out he was wrong.
And here you start down the path to destroying Mormon theology. If the founder of the Church, supposed recipient of divine revelation, and all of his prophetic heirs, have all been utterly, deeply wrong about what the founding text is about, you have built the entire religion on a foundation of sand.
(and then you add the fact that Smith didn't know Egyptian from Irish, and was repeatedly duped into believing gibberish was Egyptian, etc.)
Over time, a lot of things happened and “they” held a variety of differing opinions on the matter. As early as 1875, George M Ottinger, a faculty member at the University of Deseret (later the University of Utah) suggested that other groups besides the people whose story is told in the Book of Mormon had colonized the American continent. In the early 1900’s LDS General Authorities were saying much the same thing. B. H. Roberts insisted that migrations from northeast Asia over the Bering Strait were absolutely “indisputable.” LDS publications were teaching this as early as 1902.
The official position of the Mormon Church, as disseminated by men supposed to be receiving revelation from God, was that Indians are Lammanites.

In 1927, LDS Scholar Janne Sjodahl wrote that “students should be cautioned against the error of supposing that all the American Indians are the descendants of Lehi, Mulek and their companions. [It is] not improbably that American has received other immigrants from Asia and other parts of the globe.”
Yes, scholars use scholarly methods to figure out the truth. Religious revelation--not so much.
In 1929, long, long before the DNA issue was ever brought to light, Anthony W. Ivins, a counselor to the LDS Prophet, said, “We must be careful in the conclusions we reach. The Book of Mormon teaches the history of three distinct peoples, or two peoples and three different colonies of people, who came from the old world to this continent. It does not tell us that there was no one here before them. It does not tell us that people did not come after. And so if discoveries are made which suggest differences in race origins, it can very easily be accounted for, and reasonably, for we do believe that other people came to this continent.” This same line of thought continued to be taught in essays written by noted LDS scholars throughout the ‘50s, ‘60s, 70’s and 80’s.
Gotta love those scholars. Scholarship works. Revelation fails. And so, therefore, does Mormon theology.

You can't have it both ways. Either these apostles were right--which you agree they weren't--or they were not receiving divine revelation, in which case the house of cards that is LDS theology falls down.

Finally, Bruce R. McConkie, who oversaw the editing of the 1981 version of the Book of Mormon, inserted the statement to the effect that the Lamanites were the “principal ancestors” of the American Indians, did so of his own volition. Had another of the General Authorities been given that assignment, the text would likely have read differently. (McConkie made a number of statements over the years which were his opinion only, and which did not reflect the views of the Church as a whole.)
It has always been taught that the migration involved two nuclear families and one single male. That has never changed.
Apparently Mr. McConkie was not receiving divine revelation.
Also, that position was a retreat, a concession to the modern scientific view.
The Book of Mormon does not specifically state this. There are, however, numerous clues throughout the book that this is the case. There are groups such as the Amalekites, whose origin is unknown, who came under Nephite power. Other groups are described as “Lamanitish” and “Ishmaelitish,” indicating a foreign origin. Early on in the book, Nephi write that he was made king over his people. Had there been only a couple of dozen people, there would hardly have been a need for a king. It is also mentioned that early in their history, the Nephites also were involved in an economy which involved trade with other groups of people. These facts have been noted for years and are not desperate reversals of the LDS position as you would have people believe.
I repeat. The history laid out in the BoM does not include a single human being living here before the fictional settlers arrived. Zero. Bupkus. Zip. Nada.
And as I have shown above, there have always been LDS leaders who believed otherwise.
There have been scholars who believed otherwise, not Joseph Smith, not Brigham Young, and not the apostles of the Church.

And I can understand why you want to believe that there was an “official position” when there really wasn’t – and isn’t – one.
This is simply false.
It wasn’t “destroyed by scientific advances in the 1980s” because it didn’t exist. There have always been a variety of different viewpoints, but despite what you say, one was no more “official” than the next. The very real possibility of Lehi’s group arriving on an already populated continent has been considered by LDS scholars and the Church’s leadership for over 100 years.
And so you toss LDS theology out the window to rescue the veracity of the BoM, adding a pretzel-like interpretation of the text.

So now that you've discarded a fundamental tenet of the religion, and a clear, obvious, literal reading of your founding text, was it worth it?

Well, we’re kind of damned if we do and damned if we don’t, huh? We can’t win either way.
Correct. When your beliefs are incorrect, there is no good way to defend them.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Sheesh you and your superiority complex need to get off your high-horse, Caladan. I know what the thread is about. I CAN AND DO read.

Katzpur, I know that article has nothing to do with Mormonism. However, what you and Caladan failed to see was my first post in this thread.
Caladan is just refusing to admit he made a mistake. To admit he might be wrong about what i have to say is, much like he views me, beneath him.
No. you're still not getting it. its OK.
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
Personally, I try to use more reliable sources when forming my opinions, but I do permit myself to buy a National Enquirer every couple of years or so. ;)

Actually it was.meant to be a joke. No offense. I don't know enough about LDS (aside from what you told.me about how.mormons.view God) I just found the.video.funny
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Leaving aside the DNA and genetics for the moment.

Of all, the Western Semitic people living in the coastal regions in ancient time, the Israelites were never known as a seafaring nation. The Israelites were unlike their northern neighbor, the Phoenicians. I seriously don't think the Israelites could possibly sailed to the North American continent, let alone, have the technology to build ships capable to traverse the Atlantic.
Something occurs to me about this:

If we assume that the Israelites were able to build an Ark to weather a global flood for more than a year, then I don't think your objection is valid.

If we conclude that the Ark couldn't have been built, then your objection has implications for many Christian denominations, not just the LDS Church.
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
Well one doesn't need to trace mitochondrial DNA to prove anything. Archeological evidence shows that early humans during the post ice age area inhabitant parts of North America way before Jerusalem, Jesus, or any Jew existed......Native American culture if I am not mistaken is a lot older than Jewish culture.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Something occurs to me about this:

If we assume that the Israelites were able to build an Ark to weather a global flood for more than a year, then I don't think your objection is valid.

If we conclude that the Ark couldn't have been built, then your objection has implications for many Christian denominations, not just the LDS Church.
First of all, there is no archaeological evidence of such vessel, like the Ark, being built, to that size. And such a size, could not be use to navigate, which is important part of "seafaring", which is really my 2nd point.

Seafaring required the vessel to be navigable, which the Ark clearly wasn't. They just shut themselves in the Ark, without destination in mind. The Ark wasn't built for steering or piloting.

The Phoenicians were great maritime and naval nation, since the Bronze Age, and the evidences are very clear on how far they have travelled because of trades and colonies. The same can't be said about the Israelites.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Well one doesn't need to trace mitochondrial DNA to prove anything. Archeological evidence shows that early humans during the post ice age area inhabitant parts of North America way before Jerusalem, Jesus, or any Jew existed......Native American culture if I am not mistaken is a lot older than Jewish culture.
And this irrelevant piece of information is related to the topic at hand, how exactly?
for the love of whichever god or no god you people believe in. try to stick to the point and read the exchange of debate once in your life. so the next forum you join would be more hospitable to you.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
The Phoenicians were great maritime and naval nation, since the Bronze Age, and the evidences are very clear on how far they have travelled because of trades and colonies. The same can't be said about the Israelites.
You are approaching the problem from a completely wrong angle.
First of all. the Israelites did have seafaring capabilities. the main point that I've made. is, that even the Phoenicians. some of the most proficient seafarers in the ancient world, who based a great slice of their economy on trade by sea routes, and by colonization of the Mediterranean basin, could not have arrived to much closer geographical locations than North America.
consider this. just like people try to make an enigma by claiming that Jews arrived to the New World. there are similar people in 'the west', in places such as Britain, who idolize another Canaanite influenced society of the Near East, such as the Phoenicians, and claim they have established colonies in what is now the British isles, in order to establish some sort of a genetic linkage to the stardust these people are made of, no matter how lame the connection they make is.
 
Last edited:

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
I am Native American. If by Native American you mean descended from the people who crossed from Asia to what is now Alaska long ago, therefore I look faintly Asian.

I am Jewish, as were many Jews who fled the persecution of Spain to the New World, all the while pretending to be Xian, to satisfy our tormentors. And that title is not without merit, as the famous Inquisition aptly proved.

I am an authentic Native American Jew. There were none before my ancestors, IMHO.
 
Last edited:

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
I am an authentic Native American Jew. There were none before my ancestors, IMHO.
Hahaha. North American gentiles can build a religion on you Zardos. and then persecute you all over again, after they've fulfilled their 'spiritual needs'.
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
And this irrelevant piece of information is related to the topic at hand, how exactly?
for the love of whichever god or no god you people believe in. try to stick to the point and read the exchange of debate once in your life. so the next forum you join would be more hospitable to you.

I still await for you to take off glasses. Not only to see reality but actually re-read.......My point is to contradict the book of Mormon ideology that the idea that israelites weren't the first ones here nor is there any archeological evidence (or DNA) of any kind that would support it. In addition to reading the OP we don't have to go that far in looking at DNA evidence as the author of this thread suggest we can look at archeological evidence which contradicts the book of mormon ideology that migration happened approx circa 600 BCE from middle east to America.

However DNA evidence shows "even from the minority of native american tribes" show no genetic link to early israelites see: The Book of Mormon and North American archeology

In addition archeological evidence suggest humans were here well before any Israelite civilization was even established well before last Ice Age approximately 50,000 years ago see: New Evidence Puts Man In North America 50,000 Years Ago
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
I am Native American. If by Native American you mean descended from the people who crossed from Asia to what is now Alaska long ago, therefore I look faintly Asian.

I am Jewish, as were many Jews who fled the persecution of Spain to the New World, all the while pretending to be Xian, to satisfy our tormentors. And that title is not without merit, as the famous Inquisition aptly proved.

I am an authentic Native American Jew. There were none before my ancestors, IMHO.

Hmmm by "New world" I assume you are referring to the colonies? Earliest settlement if Jews were approx 350 years ago see: Coming to America: Fleeing religious persecution, the first Jews arrived in the Colonies 350 years ago - US News and World Report

Spanish inquistion started in mid 1470's which was hundreds of years prior to first recorded settlement of the first Jews in the colonies.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
I still await for you to take off glasses. Not only to see reality but actually re-read.......My point is to contradict the book of Mormon ideology that the idea that israelites weren't the first ones here nor is there any archeological evidence (or DNA) of any kind that would support it. In addition to reading the OP we don't have to go that far in looking at DNA evidence as the author of this thread suggest we can look at archeological evidence which contradicts the book of mormon ideology that migration happened approx circa 600 BCE from middle east to America.

However DNA evidence shows "even from the minority of native american tribes" show no genetic link to early israelites see: The Book of Mormon and North American archeology

In addition archeological evidence suggest humans were here well before any Israelite civilization was even established well before last Ice Age approximately 50,000 years ago see: New Evidence Puts Man In North America 50,000 Years Ago
I don't buy your backtrack. especially in line of your off topic summery in it. which is 100% unrelated to the debate at hand. since NO ONE is arguing which culture predates which, and is a detail with no relevance to the claim that a group of Jews joined the communities native to North America at the time.
So either you are doing a lousy job and joining in an existing debate. or your are simply smearing BS all over me.
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
I don't buy your backtrack. especially in line of your off topic summery in it. which is 100% unrelated to the debate at hand. since NO ONE is arguing which culture predates which, and is a detail with no relevance to the claim that a group of Jews joined the communities native to North America at the time.
So either you are doing a lousy job and joining in an existing debate. or your are simply smearing BS all over me.

Sigh*

Do you accept the DNA evidence as refuting the traditional doctrine of the LDS church, or do you think somehow that science is mistaken? If you admit that the DNA evidence must be correct, then how do you uphold any prophetic claims of Joseph Smith?

I am saying that in addition (meaning to add.my point)

Even though the OP espouses the above question, I am saying suggestively we don't need to go far in a DNA debate against the Joseph Smith doctrine just look at archeologicsl evidence that predates any possible Israelite migration.

You say no one is doubt who was here first is the reason why I posted the link. So it is quite relevant.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
First of all, there is no archaeological evidence of such vessel, like the Ark, being built, to that size.
Oh, I totally agree. My point was just that sometimes, there's a double standard for Mormons.

And such a size, could not be use to navigate, which is important part of "seafaring", which is really my 2nd point.

Seafaring required the vessel to be navigable, which the Ark clearly wasn't. They just shut themselves in the Ark, without destination in mind. The Ark wasn't built for steering or piloting.

The Phoenicians were great maritime and naval nation, since the Bronze Age, and the evidences are very clear on how far they have travelled because of trades and colonies. The same can't be said about the Israelites.
But the average Israelite probably didn't have God as his naval architect and navigator:

1 Nephi 18:

2Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men.

12And it came to pass that after they had bound me insomuch that I could not move, the acompass, which had been prepared of the Lord, did cease to work.

Again, how we respond to this has implications beyond the Book of Mormon, because if we dismiss it with an "oh, well God doesn't directly interfere in the affairs of humanity", then we effectively dismiss every prophet and every miracle of every religion.
 
Top