Mormons; the Problem of Iron, Alcohol & the Wheel

[outhouse]

Most modern alphabets trace back to Egyptian

Um no.

Ours is traced back to Arabic if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Sapiens]

Yes, English too borrows from the Egyptian, and could be called reformed Egyptian. Most modern alphabets trace back to Egyptian. That is why one must compare all of the symbols, noting both the similarities and differences, and the complexity of the letters. Take for example, the 10 most complex symbols from the small sample of Nephite, and see if they are similar to anything that Joseph Smith could have seen/read, etc. Then compare them to the Demotic, and see if they are similar to those. I have compared the symbols to several ancient scripts, and the only hole-in-one is the Demotic, a language that was used by traders to Egyptian in 600 BC., a language which Nephi could have known. To chalk it up to coincidence is naive. It is true that the Rosetta stone had been found, and perhaps some of these characters were on it; perhaps a local newspaper published photos of some of them; that would be a strong argument that Joseph Smith or someone else copied the letters from the photographs, but after 180 years, no such source has been found. Joseph Smith was a poorly educated farmer, who didn't like to read. He had about 3 years of formal schooling. So, yes - I find the photographs to be compelling evidence, whether peer reviewed or not.

Yes, your credulity and willingness to swallow obvious swill and you mistrust of any expert who is not aligned with your preconceived notions, never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Sapiens]

Um no.

Ours is traced back to Arabic if I'm not mistaken.

I believe the source is the Latin Alphabet. Our number system is Arabic.

 

[outhouse]

I believe the source is the Latin Alphabet. Our number system is Arabic.

That's why I left the mistaken part.

I was sure about the numerals.

 

[prometheus11]

That's why I left the mistaken part.

I was sure about the numerals.

Yeah, English uses Arabic numerals. Arabs use Indian numerals. Isn't language great?

 

[silvermoon383]

Part of what makes conlangs so fun to learn!

 

[rrosskopf]

Not accepted. "Society of God" cannot be distinguished from fantasy.

It cannot be distinguished from fantasy by YOU. That is the point. I can distinguish it. I enjoy the society of God. You live in this little tiny box, and ask people to prove that there is a bigger box, and many people tell you about this bigger box, and you refuse to believe them. So yeah - the big box is just fantasy to you. Those of us who live there know differently. Learning that there is a God is the single most defining moment of my life, and the things that I have experienced in relation to that have brought me great joy, knowledge, and understanding. My perceptions, and my intelligence have increased. I have an actual relationship where I have conversations with God and he has conversations with me. It started with the Book of Mormon. It always starts with a story. The Book of Mormon is a very compelling story. The story of the discovery and translation of the Book of Mormon is also compelling. An angel appears to a farm boy, and shows him where to find a stone box. How many of us have ever found a stone box? The box alone would be an amazing archeological find, and it was there for all to see until a storm washed it away. Even better, the stone box is not empty, but holds true treasure in a day and age when the whole country seems to be hunting for lost treasure. Yet the angel states that the true treasure is in the words, and not in the gold. He chastizes Joseph Smith for even thinking of selling it, and refuses to let him take it out of the box until he repents. The protagonist in this story is mortal, and poor, and subject to the same temptations as all of us. He is sitting on one of the greatest discoveries in perhaps the history of the world, and he can't even remove the artifacts from their stone crypt. He agrees to meet with the angel every year on the same day, until the angel deems him ready and worthy to take the contents of the box. Other preparations must also be made. Joseph must obtain a lockable box, in which to keep the artifacts, and he must have help; he can't do this on his own. Finally the day arrives, when Joseph will be allowed to remove the gold book from the box. A family friend is visiting his father's house, so Joseph and his wife Emma "borrow" the friends horse and buggy, to go get the book. Emma takes him to the base of the hill. Word has gotten out, and there are others who know of this red letter day, and who figure that they'll take the treasure for themselves. Joseph Smith is no weak desk-bound academic, but a tall burly farmer, a man comfortable with the axe and the plow. He holds the plates like a football, running towards some distant goal, dodging the trees, rocks, and players of the opposing team. The plates grow heavy, so he hides them under a log, and goes back to retrieve them the following day. He locks them up in the box he borrowed from his brother, and begins the task of translation. Joseph has horrible hand writing, and refuses to write. He gets Emma to write, as he translates. It is slow at first, as he prays, ponders and agonizes over each symbol. He only tells us that he used the power of God; as manifest through seer stones. 1830 was a world in transition, a world where science was becoming king, but most folks still believed in the power of divining rods and seer stones, and most people still believed in God. Emma tires after a while, and the responsibility to scribe goes to a succession of other scribes. Joseph Smith reads a line. Once it is recorded correctly, Joseph goes to the next line. He never returns or loses his place. He is never seen with so much as a slip of paper. He just stares at or through one of the seer stones. Two seer stones were found in the stone box, with a wire frame around them like a pair of spectacles, but they were too far apart; Joseph could look through one or the other, but not both at the same time. This doesn't sound like fantasy; it sounds suspiciously like life. After many months of work, the first book is now complete. Joseph has finished translating the Book of Lehi. He proudly shows it to every interested party. Martin Harris begs and pleads with him to borrow it to show his wife, who is skeptical. Joseph refuses twice, but finally gives in if Martin promises to keep it locked up. Martin takes it home, and shows his wife. Then he shows his friends and neighbors. Pretty soon he doesn't bother to lock it up; it isn't going anywhere. Then suddenly it disappears. There is only one copy. They worked for months and months on the translation. Martin is crushed, fears for his soul, and avoids any communication with Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith, frightened by the sudden silence, sought him out, and seeing Martin's face knew immediately that the worst had happened - Martin had lost the manuscript. Now Joseph too worried about his own soul, as he had gone against the advice of God in loaning the papers to Martin. To add salt to the wounds, the angel shows up and takes back the gold plates. It is the cliff hanger of cliff hangers. All is lost, or is it? The story is real, and the characters are real people. Joseph pleads with God and finally gains a reprieve; he will be allowed to translate once again. He is told to continue where he left off, and the plates are returned to him. Translation goes much faster now, as he now recognizes most of the symbols. After a little over two months, the 250,000 word manuscript was completed. In an age without computers or word processors, Joseph and Oliver Cowdery have produced a book that will change the course of history in just over two months. Joseph Smith is then told to invite three men to be witnesses; until now he has trusted no one to see the plates. The four men retired to a place in the woods, and began to pray. Nothing happened. After a while, it becomes apparent that nothing will happen. Martin Harris told the others that it was his fault, and he withdrew from the group. Then the heavens opened and the remaining three men saw an incredible vision; they saw the angel Moroni, and the gold plates, and heard the voice of God declare the translation to be correct. The vision closed, and Joseph Smith went and found Martin Harris. Together they struggled until the heavens once again opened, and the same vision played upon their senses. Martin Harris was almost terrified, as he exclaimed "It is enough!". Joseph then went and got eight other men to come, allowing them to see the gold plates, hold the plates and thumb through the pages. Later, at least four more individuals would be granted a visit from the angel Moroni, and they added their testimonies to those of the 3 and the 8.

The world was in an uproar. The Book of Mormon, hot off the presses, was immediately boycotted. Hardly anyone would buy a copy. Scientists, newspapermen and religionists all hurled invectives at it, sometimes without actually having seen it. Yet some people did read it, and they had remarkable conversion stories, and those stories also spread; sometimes entire congregations were converted to Mormonism. Critics pointed out that no one wrote on gold plates or brass plates in 600 BC, yet people were convinced that it was of God. This was the first and perhaps most glaring anachronism. Now of course there is a whole genre of ancient scriptures written on gold, silver, brass, copper and even lead plates. The second obvious anachronism was the description of great cities, holding tens of thousands of people. No such cities were known to exist. Just thirteen years later, John Lloyd Stevens would publish his Incidents of Travel in Yucatan, telling of ancient cities buried beneath the jungle canopy. The idea that the Native Americans were a lost tribe of Israel wasn't new, but it was laughable. Two years after the publication of the Book of Mormon, the Catholic church ordered the Titles of the Lords of Totonicapan to be translated into Spanish. Written by descendants of the Maya, it told how the Maya were Israelites who came across the ocean. It wouldn't be translated into English for another 150 years.

Another anachronism in the Book of Mormon is the mention of level roads. No Native American roads were known to exist, level or otherwise. Most New England towns just had deeply rutted dirt roads, and they were made by the settlers, not the indians. The Book of Mormon states :
"And there were many highways cast up, and many roads made, which led from city to city, and from land to land, and from place to place. "
The Mayans would actually "cast up" roads, starting with larger rocks and ending with a type of fine limestone powder which they would tamp into the ground. The roads were smooth, and went from city to city, and land to land, and place to place. They rose above the surrounding country which was often flooded.

Another anachronism was cement buildings. "And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell." The Mayans actually denuded large areas of trees, in the process of refining the limestone into cement. They did indeed build houses out of cement, something that Joseph Smith did not know how to do, and something that was completely unknown in 1830.

 

[prometheus11]

Well that just happened. O>o So....

 

[Sapiens]

I find it had to believe that you'd present a paltry few anachronisms, that if true are just accidental (after your desperate search and even more desperate apologetic justification).

 

[Shad]

Yeah, I was being lazy. There are several published articles, but finding them on the internet is problematic. The site with the best article has a broken search engine. As a programmer, that stuff drives me mad. What's the point of a large library of university level articles, if one cannot find them? In this case, the search engine does find the articles; but clicking on the results redirects to the home page. I'll see if I can find a better source for you.

I understand your issues with databases searches all too well.

 

[Shad]

Yes, English too borrows from the Egyptian, and could be called reformed Egyptian.

No it cant since language is just not that symbols look the same. Each symbol has specific meaning in relation to other symbols. Your reformed Egyptian is gibberish using Egyptian as a template. This is what you do not understand.

So, yes - I find the photographs to be compelling evidence, whether peer reviewed or not.

Which is merely you showing you do not understand even the basics of the language you speak.

 

[serp777]

I kind of expect more. Maybe it's wrong of me to do so, but **** it, I expect the world to make sense goddamn it.

The universe isn't entitled to make sense. Not much about quantum theory makes much sense for instance. What makes sense to us is determined by how we evolved on the planes of africa. Our idea of what makes sense evolves as we learn more about reality.

However, with that being said, Mormonism is entirely ridiculous and most probably false.

 

[Shad]

It cannot be distinguished from fantasy by YOU. That is the point. I can distinguish it. I enjoy the society of God. You live in this little tiny box, and ask people to prove that there is a bigger box, and many people tell you about this bigger box, and you refuse to believe them. So yeah - the big box is just fantasy to you. Those of us who live there know differently. Learning that there is a God is the single most defining moment of my life, and the things that I have experienced in relation to that have brought me great joy, knowledge, and understanding. My perceptions, and my intelligence have increased. I have an actual relationship where I have conversations with God and he has conversations with me. It started with the Book of Mormon. It always starts with a story. The Book of Mormon is a very compelling story. The story of the discovery and translation of the Book of Mormon is also compelling. An angel appears to a farm boy, and shows him where to find a stone box. How many of us have ever found a stone box? The box alone would be an amazing archeological find, and it was there for all to see until a storm washed it away. Even better, the stone box is not empty, but holds true treasure in a day and age when the whole country seems to be hunting for lost treasure. Yet the angel states that the true treasure is in the words, and not in the gold. He chastizes Joseph Smith for even thinking of selling it, and refuses to let him take it out of the box until he repents. The protagonist in this story is mortal, and poor, and subject to the same temptations as all of us. He is sitting on one of the greatest discoveries in perhaps the history of the world, and he can't even remove the artifacts from their stone crypt. He agrees to meet with the angel every year on the same day, until the angel deems him ready and worthy to take the contents of the box. Other preparations must also be made. Joseph must obtain a lockable box, in which to keep the artifacts, and he must have help; he can't do this on his own. Finally the day arrives, when Joseph will be allowed to remove the gold book from the box. A family friend is visiting his father's house, so Joseph and his wife Emma "borrow" the friends horse and buggy, to go get the book. Emma takes him to the base of the hill. Word has gotten out, and there are others who know of this red letter day, and who figure that they'll take the treasure for themselves. Joseph Smith is no weak desk-bound academic, but a tall burly farmer, a man comfortable with the axe and the plow. He holds the plates like a football, running towards some distant goal, dodging the trees, rocks, and players of the opposing team. The plates grow heavy, so he hides them under a log, and goes back to retrieve them the following day. He locks them up in the box he borrowed from his brother, and begins the task of translation. Joseph has horrible hand writing, and refuses to write. He gets Emma to write, as he translates. It is slow at first, as he prays, ponders and agonizes over each symbol. He only tells us that he used the power of God; as manifest through seer stones. 1830 was a world in transition, a world where science was becoming king, but most folks still believed in the power of divining rods and seer stones, and most people still believed in God. Emma tires after a while, and the responsibility to scribe goes to a succession of other scribes. Joseph Smith reads a line. Once it is recorded correctly, Joseph goes to the next line. He never returns or loses his place. He is never seen with so much as a slip of paper. He just stares at or through one of the seer stones. Two seer stones were found in the stone box, with a wire frame around them like a pair of spectacles, but they were too far apart; Joseph could look through one or the other, but not both at the same time. This doesn't sound like fantasy; it sounds suspiciously like life. After many months of work, the first book is now complete. Joseph has finished translating the Book of Lehi. He proudly shows it to every interested party. Martin Harris begs and pleads with him to borrow it to show his wife, who is skeptical. Joseph refuses twice, but finally gives in if Martin promises to keep it locked up. Martin takes it home, and shows his wife. Then he shows his friends and neighbors. Pretty soon he doesn't bother to lock it up; it isn't going anywhere. Then suddenly it disappears. There is only one copy. They worked for months and months on the translation. Martin is crushed, fears for his soul, and avoids any communication with Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith, frightened by the sudden silence, sought him out, and seeing Martin's face knew immediately that the worst had happened - Martin had lost the manuscript. Now Joseph too worried about his own soul, as he had gone against the advice of God in loaning the papers to Martin. To add salt to the wounds, the angel shows up and takes back the gold plates. It is the cliff hanger of cliff hangers. All is lost, or is it? The story is real, and the characters are real people. Joseph pleads with God and finally gains a reprieve; he will be allowed to translate once again. He is told to continue where he left off, and the plates are returned to him. Translation goes much faster now, as he now recognizes most of the symbols. After a little over two months, the 250,000 word manuscript was completed. In an age without computers or word processors, Joseph and Oliver Cowdery have produced a book that will change the course of history in just over two months. Joseph Smith is then told to invite three men to be witnesses; until now he has trusted no one to see the plates. The four men retired to a place in the woods, and began to pray. Nothing happened. After a while, it becomes apparent that nothing will happen. Martin Harris told the others that it was his fault, and he withdrew from the group. Then the heavens opened and the remaining three men saw an incredible vision; they saw the angel Moroni, and the gold plates, and heard the voice of God declare the translation to be correct. The vision closed, and Joseph Smith went and found Martin Harris. Together they struggled until the heavens once again opened, and the same vision played upon their senses. Martin Harris was almost terrified, as he exclaimed "It is enough!". Joseph then went and got eight other men to come, allowing them to see the gold plates, hold the plates and thumb through the pages. Later, at least four more individuals would be granted a visit from the angel Moroni, and they added their testimonies to those of the 3 and the 8.

Argument from emotions backed by religious rhetoric.

The world was in an uproar. The Book of Mormon, hot off the presses, was immediately boycotted. Hardly anyone would buy a copy. Scientists, newspapermen and religionists all hurled invectives at it, sometimes without actually having seen it. Yet some people did read it, and they had remarkable conversion stories, and those stories also spread; sometimes entire congregations were converted to Mormonism. Critics pointed out that no one wrote on gold plates or brass plates in 600 BC, yet people were convinced that it was of God. This was the first and perhaps most glaring anachronism. Now of course there is a whole genre of ancient scriptures written on gold, silver, brass, copper and even lead plates. The second obvious anachronism was the description of great cities, holding tens of thousands of people. No such cities were known to exist. Just thirteen years later, John Lloyd Stevens would publish his Incidents of Travel in Yucatan, telling of ancient cities buried beneath the jungle canopy. The idea that the Native Americans were a lost tribe of Israel wasn't new, but it was laughable. Two years after the publication of the Book of Mormon, the Catholic church ordered the Titles of the Lords of Totonicapan to be translated into Spanish. Written by descendants of the Maya, it told how the Maya were Israelites who came across the ocean. It wouldn't be translated into English for another 150 years.

You know your conversion stories are used by other people following other religions that reject your own. Another argument from emotions. The Maya were never Israelite, their DNA is not from the area at all, it is Asian. Besides you assume the reference of across the sea is about the Atlantic. However if you read the text, which you didn't, you would have noted the sea was the Gulf of Mexico thus they were from the West not the East across the Atlantic. The claim is still laughable as even more evidence against your view has been added to over the last 150 years.

Another anachronism in the Book of Mormon is the mention of level roads. No Native American roads were known to exist, level or otherwise. Most New England towns just had deeply rutted dirt roads, and they were made by the settlers, not the indians. The Book of Mormon states :
"And there were many highways cast up, and many roads made, which led from city to city, and from land to land, and from place to place. "
The Mayans would actually "cast up" roads, starting with larger rocks and ending with a type of fine limestone powder which they would tamp into the ground. The roads were smooth, and went from city to city, and land to land, and place to place. They rose above the surrounding country which was often flooded.

Roads are very common in many civilizations. Besides you are ignorant that Diego Lopez Cogolludo mentioned a road system in 1688. So you assumption that there were no roads is solely based on your refusal to fact check LDS apologists.

"There are remains of paved highways which transverse all this kingdom and they say they ended on the east on the seashore...so that they may arrive at Cozumel for the fulfillment of their vows, to offer their sacrifice, to ask for help in their needs, and for the mistaken adoration of their false Gods".

Another anachronism was cement buildings. "And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell." The Mayans actually denuded large areas of trees, in the process of refining the limestone into cement. They did indeed build houses out of cement, something that Joseph Smith did not know how to do, and something that was completely unknown in 1830.

Problem here is that the Mayans didn't use cement. They used a mixture that was compared to it but not cement used by Europeans. So Smith was still wrong, as are you, since you equivocate cement from Europeans with what the Mayans used.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It cannot be distinguished from fantasy by YOU. That is the point. I can distinguish it. I enjoy the society of God. You live in this little tiny box, and ask people to prove that there is a bigger box, and many people tell you about this bigger box, and you refuse to believe them. So yeah - the big box is just fantasy to you. Those of us who live there know differently. Learning that there is a God is the single most defining moment of my life, and the things that I have experienced in relation to that have brought me great joy, knowledge, and understanding. My perceptions, and my intelligence have increased. I have an actual relationship where I have conversations with God and he has conversations with me. It started with the Book of Mormon. It always starts with a story. The Book of Mormon is a very compelling story. The story of the discovery and translation of the Book of Mormon is also compelling. An angel appears to a farm boy, and shows him where to find a stone box. How many of us have ever found a stone box? The box alone would be an amazing archeological find, and it was there for all to see until a storm washed it away. Even better, the stone box is not empty, but holds true treasure in a day and age when the whole country seems to be hunting for lost treasure. Yet the angel states that the true treasure is in the words, and not in the gold. He chastizes Joseph Smith for even thinking of selling it, and refuses to let him take it out of the box until he repents. The protagonist in this story is mortal, and poor, and subject to the same temptations as all of us. He is sitting on one of the greatest discoveries in perhaps the history of the world, and he can't even remove the artifacts from their stone crypt. He agrees to meet with the angel every year on the same day, until the angel deems him ready and worthy to take the contents of the box. Other preparations must also be made. Joseph must obtain a lockable box, in which to keep the artifacts, and he must have help; he can't do this on his own. Finally the day arrives, when Joseph will be allowed to remove the gold book from the box. A family friend is visiting his father's house, so Joseph and his wife Emma "borrow" the friends horse and buggy, to go get the book. Emma takes him to the base of the hill. Word has gotten out, and there are others who know of this red letter day, and who figure that they'll take the treasure for themselves. Joseph Smith is no weak desk-bound academic, but a tall burly farmer, a man comfortable with the axe and the plow. He holds the plates like a football, running towards some distant goal, dodging the trees, rocks, and players of the opposing team. The plates grow heavy, so he hides them under a log, and goes back to retrieve them the following day. He locks them up in the box he borrowed from his brother, and begins the task of translation. Joseph has horrible hand writing, and refuses to write. He gets Emma to write, as he translates. It is slow at first, as he prays, ponders and agonizes over each symbol. He only tells us that he used the power of God; as manifest through seer stones. 1830 was a world in transition, a world where science was becoming king, but most folks still believed in the power of divining rods and seer stones, and most people still believed in God. Emma tires after a while, and the responsibility to scribe goes to a succession of other scribes. Joseph Smith reads a line. Once it is recorded correctly, Joseph goes to the next line. He never returns or loses his place. He is never seen with so much as a slip of paper. He just stares at or through one of the seer stones. Two seer stones were found in the stone box, with a wire frame around them like a pair of spectacles, but they were too far apart; Joseph could look through one or the other, but not both at the same time. This doesn't sound like fantasy; it sounds suspiciously like life. After many months of work, the first book is now complete. Joseph has finished translating the Book of Lehi. He proudly shows it to every interested party. Martin Harris begs and pleads with him to borrow it to show his wife, who is skeptical. Joseph refuses twice, but finally gives in if Martin promises to keep it locked up. Martin takes it home, and shows his wife. Then he shows his friends and neighbors. Pretty soon he doesn't bother to lock it up; it isn't going anywhere. Then suddenly it disappears. There is only one copy. They worked for months and months on the translation. Martin is crushed, fears for his soul, and avoids any communication with Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith, frightened by the sudden silence, sought him out, and seeing Martin's face knew immediately that the worst had happened - Martin had lost the manuscript. Now Joseph too worried about his own soul, as he had gone against the advice of God in loaning the papers to Martin. To add salt to the wounds, the angel shows up and takes back the gold plates. It is the cliff hanger of cliff hangers. All is lost, or is it? The story is real, and the characters are real people. Joseph pleads with God and finally gains a reprieve; he will be allowed to translate once again. He is told to continue where he left off, and the plates are returned to him. Translation goes much faster now, as he now recognizes most of the symbols. After a little over two months, the 250,000 word manuscript was completed. In an age without computers or word processors, Joseph and Oliver Cowdery have produced a book that will change the course of history in just over two months. Joseph Smith is then told to invite three men to be witnesses; until now he has trusted no one to see the plates. The four men retired to a place in the woods, and began to pray. Nothing happened. After a while, it becomes apparent that nothing will happen. Martin Harris told the others that it was his fault, and he withdrew from the group. Then the heavens opened and the remaining three men saw an incredible vision; they saw the angel Moroni, and the gold plates, and heard the voice of God declare the translation to be correct. The vision closed, and Joseph Smith went and found Martin Harris. Together they struggled until the heavens once again opened, and the same vision played upon their senses. Martin Harris was almost terrified, as he exclaimed "It is enough!". Joseph then went and got eight other men to come, allowing them to see the gold plates, hold the plates and thumb through the pages. Later, at least four more individuals would be granted a visit from the angel Moroni, and they added their testimonies to those of the 3 and the 8.

The world was in an uproar. The Book of Mormon, hot off the presses, was immediately boycotted. Hardly anyone would buy a copy. Scientists, newspapermen and religionists all hurled invectives at it, sometimes without actually having seen it. Yet some people did read it, and they had remarkable conversion stories, and those stories also spread; sometimes entire congregations were converted to Mormonism. Critics pointed out that no one wrote on gold plates or brass plates in 600 BC, yet people were convinced that it was of God. This was the first and perhaps most glaring anachronism. Now of course there is a whole genre of ancient scriptures written on gold, silver, brass, copper and even lead plates. The second obvious anachronism was the description of great cities, holding tens of thousands of people. No such cities were known to exist. Just thirteen years later, John Lloyd Stevens would publish his Incidents of Travel in Yucatan, telling of ancient cities buried beneath the jungle canopy. The idea that the Native Americans were a lost tribe of Israel wasn't new, but it was laughable. Two years after the publication of the Book of Mormon, the Catholic church ordered the Titles of the Lords of Totonicapan to be translated into Spanish. Written by descendants of the Maya, it told how the Maya were Israelites who came across the ocean. It wouldn't be translated into English for another 150 years.

Another anachronism in the Book of Mormon is the mention of level roads. No Native American roads were known to exist, level or otherwise. Most New England towns just had deeply rutted dirt roads, and they were made by the settlers, not the indians. The Book of Mormon states :
"And there were many highways cast up, and many roads made, which led from city to city, and from land to land, and from place to place. "
The Mayans would actually "cast up" roads, starting with larger rocks and ending with a type of fine limestone powder which they would tamp into the ground. The roads were smooth, and went from city to city, and land to land, and place to place. They rose above the surrounding country which was often flooded.

Another anachronism was cement buildings. "And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell." The Mayans actually denuded large areas of trees, in the process of refining the limestone into cement. They did indeed build houses out of cement, something that Joseph Smith did not know how to do, and something that was completely unknown in 1830.

Sounds made up to me.

 

[Nietzsche]

It cannot be distinguished from fantasy by YOU. That is the point. I can distinguish it. I enjoy the society of God. You live in this little tiny box, and ask people to prove that there is a bigger box, and many people tell you about this bigger box, and you refuse to believe them. So yeah - the big box is just fantasy to you. Those of us who live there know differently. Learning that there is a God is the single most defining moment of my life, and the things that I have experienced in relation to that have brought me great joy, knowledge, and understanding. My perceptions, and my intelligence have increased. I have an actual relationship where I have conversations with God and he has conversations with me. It started with the Book of Mormon. It always starts with a story. The Book of Mormon is a very compelling story. The story of the discovery and translation of the Book of Mormon is also compelling. An angel appears to a farm boy, and shows him where to find a stone box. How many of us have ever found a stone box? The box alone would be an amazing archeological find, and it was there for all to see until a storm washed it away. Even better, the stone box is not empty, but holds true treasure in a day and age when the whole country seems to be hunting for lost treasure. Yet the angel states that the true treasure is in the words, and not in the gold. He chastizes Joseph Smith for even thinking of selling it, and refuses to let him take it out of the box until he repents. The protagonist in this story is mortal, and poor, and subject to the same temptations as all of us. He is sitting on one of the greatest discoveries in perhaps the history of the world, and he can't even remove the artifacts from their stone crypt. He agrees to meet with the angel every year on the same day, until the angel deems him ready and worthy to take the contents of the box. Other preparations must also be made. Joseph must obtain a lockable box, in which to keep the artifacts, and he must have help; he can't do this on his own. Finally the day arrives, when Joseph will be allowed to remove the gold book from the box. A family friend is visiting his father's house, so Joseph and his wife Emma "borrow" the friends horse and buggy, to go get the book. Emma takes him to the base of the hill. Word has gotten out, and there are others who know of this red letter day, and who figure that they'll take the treasure for themselves. Joseph Smith is no weak desk-bound academic, but a tall burly farmer, a man comfortable with the axe and the plow. He holds the plates like a football, running towards some distant goal, dodging the trees, rocks, and players of the opposing team. The plates grow heavy, so he hides them under a log, and goes back to retrieve them the following day. He locks them up in the box he borrowed from his brother, and begins the task of translation. Joseph has horrible hand writing, and refuses to write. He gets Emma to write, as he translates. It is slow at first, as he prays, ponders and agonizes over each symbol. He only tells us that he used the power of God; as manifest through seer stones. 1830 was a world in transition, a world where science was becoming king, but most folks still believed in the power of divining rods and seer stones, and most people still believed in God. Emma tires after a while, and the responsibility to scribe goes to a succession of other scribes. Joseph Smith reads a line. Once it is recorded correctly, Joseph goes to the next line. He never returns or loses his place. He is never seen with so much as a slip of paper. He just stares at or through one of the seer stones. Two seer stones were found in the stone box, with a wire frame around them like a pair of spectacles, but they were too far apart; Joseph could look through one or the other, but not both at the same time. This doesn't sound like fantasy; it sounds suspiciously like life. After many months of work, the first book is now complete. Joseph has finished translating the Book of Lehi. He proudly shows it to every interested party. Martin Harris begs and pleads with him to borrow it to show his wife, who is skeptical. Joseph refuses twice, but finally gives in if Martin promises to keep it locked up. Martin takes it home, and shows his wife. Then he shows his friends and neighbors. Pretty soon he doesn't bother to lock it up; it isn't going anywhere. Then suddenly it disappears. There is only one copy. They worked for months and months on the translation. Martin is crushed, fears for his soul, and avoids any communication with Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith, frightened by the sudden silence, sought him out, and seeing Martin's face knew immediately that the worst had happened - Martin had lost the manuscript. Now Joseph too worried about his own soul, as he had gone against the advice of God in loaning the papers to Martin. To add salt to the wounds, the angel shows up and takes back the gold plates. It is the cliff hanger of cliff hangers. All is lost, or is it? The story is real, and the characters are real people. Joseph pleads with God and finally gains a reprieve; he will be allowed to translate once again. He is told to continue where he left off, and the plates are returned to him. Translation goes much faster now, as he now recognizes most of the symbols. After a little over two months, the 250,000 word manuscript was completed. In an age without computers or word processors, Joseph and Oliver Cowdery have produced a book that will change the course of history in just over two months. Joseph Smith is then told to invite three men to be witnesses; until now he has trusted no one to see the plates. The four men retired to a place in the woods, and began to pray. Nothing happened. After a while, it becomes apparent that nothing will happen. Martin Harris told the others that it was his fault, and he withdrew from the group. Then the heavens opened and the remaining three men saw an incredible vision; they saw the angel Moroni, and the gold plates, and heard the voice of God declare the translation to be correct. The vision closed, and Joseph Smith went and found Martin Harris. Together they struggled until the heavens once again opened, and the same vision played upon their senses. Martin Harris was almost terrified, as he exclaimed "It is enough!". Joseph then went and got eight other men to come, allowing them to see the gold plates, hold the plates and thumb through the pages. Later, at least four more individuals would be granted a visit from the angel Moroni, and they added their testimonies to those of the 3 and the 8.

The world was in an uproar. The Book of Mormon, hot off the presses, was immediately boycotted. Hardly anyone would buy a copy. Scientists, newspapermen and religionists all hurled invectives at it, sometimes without actually having seen it. Yet some people did read it, and they had remarkable conversion stories, and those stories also spread; sometimes entire congregations were converted to Mormonism. Critics pointed out that no one wrote on gold plates or brass plates in 600 BC, yet people were convinced that it was of God. This was the first and perhaps most glaring anachronism. Now of course there is a whole genre of ancient scriptures written on gold, silver, brass, copper and even lead plates. The second obvious anachronism was the description of great cities, holding tens of thousands of people. No such cities were known to exist. Just thirteen years later, John Lloyd Stevens would publish his Incidents of Travel in Yucatan, telling of ancient cities buried beneath the jungle canopy. The idea that the Native Americans were a lost tribe of Israel wasn't new, but it was laughable. Two years after the publication of the Book of Mormon, the Catholic church ordered the Titles of the Lords of Totonicapan to be translated into Spanish. Written by descendants of the Maya, it told how the Maya were Israelites who came across the ocean. It wouldn't be translated into English for another 150 years.

Another anachronism in the Book of Mormon is the mention of level roads. No Native American roads were known to exist, level or otherwise. Most New England towns just had deeply rutted dirt roads, and they were made by the settlers, not the indians. The Book of Mormon states :
"And there were many highways cast up, and many roads made, which led from city to city, and from land to land, and from place to place. "
The Mayans would actually "cast up" roads, starting with larger rocks and ending with a type of fine limestone powder which they would tamp into the ground. The roads were smooth, and went from city to city, and land to land, and place to place. They rose above the surrounding country which was often flooded.

Another anachronism was cement buildings. "And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell." The Mayans actually denuded large areas of trees, in the process of refining the limestone into cement. They did indeed build houses out of cement, something that Joseph Smith did not know how to do, and something that was completely unknown in 1830.

Spacing is your friend. Mind fixing this so I don't go cross-eyed just reading it?

 

[rrosskopf]

Argument from emotions backed by religious rhetoric.

Let's look at the dictionary...
rhetoric: 1. language that is intended to influence people and that may not be honest or reasonable
I believe it to be both honest and reasonable, so maybe you meant that differently.
2. the art or skill of speaking or writing formally and effectively especially as a way to persuade or influence people
Ah, a compliment. Thank you. Writing ineffectively so as not to persuade people would be pointless.
Is it an argument from emotions? I feel good about it, therefore it must be true? I suppose is sounds that way. Perhaps there is some truth to that. I feel good about things that ring true. I despise deception. The history of Mormonism rings true on so many levels. Do you believe in things that don't ring true?

You know your conversion stories are used by other people following other religions that reject your own.

Actually that is very rare. I haven't found that to be the case. The Catholic and Protestant churches both reject modern revelation, so they don't expect to ask and get answers straight from God. Muslims also reject modern revelation. The Jews have rejected all prophets for over two thousand years. None of them are taught to pray and ask God whether their religious systems are true. In the rare event that they act contrary to their churches' teachings, they may have a religious experience, but it seldom if ever confirms Protestantism or Catholicism, or any other system as a whole. It is usually just some small concept or part of the whole. If a Catholic or Protestant has a vision where they become convinced that Jesus is their Savior; well that in no way detracts from the teachings of Mormonism. A person doesn't have to be Mormon, to get answers from God. In fact, about half of the adult membership of the Mormon or LDS church are converts from those other religions, after receiving some sort of revelation from God. That is a boast that few churches can make. I only know of one.

The Maya were never Israelite, their DNA is not from the area at all, it is Asian.

There are several different peoples that fall under the umbrella of "Maya". They have intermingled for over a thousand years, so original bloodlines are no longer present. The Olmecs were the founding race, so one would expect Olmec DNA to be dominant. The Title of the Lords of Totonicapan is the history of just one group of Mayan people, and they clearly state that they are Israelites, children of Abraham, and that they came from a land across the sea. The Lacandon Maya trace their ancestry to a man named Jawbone, who came from across the sea. Lehi, the progenitor of both Lamanites and Nephites, literally means Jawbone. These aren't just made up stories, but actual history as described by non-Mormons. Like I said, the Book of Mormon rings true on many levels.

 

[rrosskopf]

Spacing is your friend. Mind fixing this so I don't go cross-eyed just reading it?

It seems to strip out all the spaces. I didn't write it like this.

 

[Sapiens]

Let's look at the dictionary...
rhetoric: 1. language that is intended to influence people and that may not be honest or reasonable
I believe it to be both honest and reasonable, so maybe you meant that differently.
2. the art or skill of speaking or writing formally and effectively especially as a way to persuade or influence people
Ah, a compliment. Thank you. Writing ineffectively so as not to persuade people would be pointless.
Is it an argument from emotions? I feel good about it, therefore it must be true? I suppose is sounds that way. Perhaps there is some truth to that. I feel good about things that ring true. I despise deception. The history of Mormonism rings true on so many levels. Do you believe in things that don't ring true?

Yes, you should look at the dictionary. I expect (from context) what was meant was:
rhetoric:
language designed to have a persuasive or impressive effect on its audience, but often regarded as lacking in sincerity or meaningful content.
"all we have from the opposition is empty rhetoric"
synonyms: bombast, turgidity, grandiloquence, magniloquence, pomposity,extravagant language, purple prose;
wordiness, verbosity, prolixity;
informa: hot air;
rare: fustian
"empty rhetoric"

Actually that is very rare. I haven't found that to be the case. The Catholic and Protestant churches both reject modern revelation, so they don't expect to ask and get answers straight from God. Muslims also reject modern revelation. The Jews have rejected all prophets for over two thousand years. None of them are taught to pray and ask God whether their religious systems are true. In the rare event that they act contrary to their churches' teachings, they may have a religious experience, but it seldom if ever confirms Protestantism or Catholicism, or any other system as a whole. It is usually just some small concept or part of the whole. If a Catholic or Protestant has a vision where they become convinced that Jesus is their Savior; well that in no way detracts from the teachings of Mormonism. A person doesn't have to be Mormon, to get answers from God. In fact, about half of the adult membership of the Mormon or LDS church are converts from those other religions, after receiving some sort of revelation from God. That is a boast that few churches can make. I only know of one.

Boast:
talk with excessive pride and self-satisfaction about one's achievements, possessions, or abilities.
"Ted used to boast, “I manage ten people”"
synonyms: brag, crow, swagger, swank, gloat, show off;
exaggerate, overstate;
informal: talk big, bloviate, blow one's own horn, lay it on thick
"his mother had been boasting about him"

There are several different peoples that fall under the umbrella of "Maya". They have intermingled for over a thousand years, so original bloodlines are no longer present. The Olmecs were the founding race, so one would expect Olmec DNA to be dominant. The Title of the Lords of Totonicapan is the history of just one group of Mayan people, and they clearly state that they are Israelites, children of Abraham, and that they came from a land across the sea. The Lacandon Maya trace their ancestry to a man named Jawbone, who came from across the sea. Lehi, the progenitor of both Lamanites and Nephites, literally means Jawbone. These aren't just made up stories, but actual history as described by non-Mormons. Like I said, the Book of Mormon rings true on many levels.

There is no DNA evidence to support your wild claims.

It seems to strip out all the spaces. I didn't write it like this.

Next thing we know that will be a miracle rather than a cut and paste mistake.

 

[Shad]

Let's look at the dictionary...
rhetoric: 1. language that is intended to influence people and that may not be honest or reasonable
I believe it to be both honest and reasonable, so maybe you meant that differently.
2. the art or skill of speaking or writing formally and effectively especially as a way to persuade or influence people

You forgot about this one: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rhetoric

language that is intended to influence people and that may not be honest or reasonable

Ah, a compliment. Thank you. Writing ineffectively so as not to persuade people would be pointless.

It wasn't a compliment.

Is it an argument from emotions? I feel good about it, therefore it must be true?

The conversion stories are just that.

I despise deception.

Then you shouldn't be a member of the LDS since everything you post here created by them is a lie.

The history of Mormonism rings true on so many levels.

You have failed to demonstrate any of it as true

Do you believe in things that don't ring true?

Yes. One example would be that theist fact check their apologists before posting their tripe on the forum.

Actually that is very rare. I haven't found that to be the case. The Catholic and Protestant churches both reject modern revelation, so they don't expect to ask and get answers straight from God. Muslims also reject modern revelation. The Jews have rejected all prophets for over two thousand years. None of them are taught to pray and ask God whether their religious systems are true. In the rare event that they act contrary to their churches' teachings, they may have a religious experience, but it seldom if ever confirms Protestantism or Catholicism, or any other system as a whole. It is usually just some small concept or part of the whole. If a Catholic or Protestant has a vision where they become convinced that Jesus is their Savior; well that in no way detracts from the teachings of Mormonism. A person doesn't have to be Mormon, to get answers from God. In fact, about half of the adult membership of the Mormon or LDS church are converts from those other religions, after receiving some sort of revelation from God. That is a boast that few churches can make. I only know of one.

So what? You are attempting to prop up your religion by using the examples of the failures of others but keep forgetings Smith and your LDS apologistics has been refuted over and over again. Maybe read this thread again.

There are several different peoples that fall under the umbrella of "Maya". They have intermingled for over a thousand years, so original bloodlines are no longer present.

Haplogrouping do not vanish over a short time span of 2k years.

The Olmecs were the founding race, so one would expect Olmec DNA to be dominant.

There is no such DNA type, their type is Q3, C3 or a variant of either which are from Asia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png

The Title of the Lords of Totonicapan is the history of just one group of Mayan people, and they clearly state that they are Israelites, children of Abraham, and that they came from a land across the sea.

Nope read the text. They came from the place where the sun rises. This could be any place east of Guatemala. Beside the obvious key problem is that they claim they came from the place where the sun rises. This is clearly a myth since the location of the rising Sun is nowhere. You can keep going east for eternity and never get to this spot. You treat a myth based on primitives that thought the Earth was flat. Try again. You LDS apologists lied to you, besides the haplogrouping refutes this story. DNA trumps myths.

 

[rrosskopf]

Besides you are ignorant that Diego Lopez Cogolludo mentioned a road system in 1688.

I have to say that I definetely didn't know that he spoke English, or that his notes were required reading in grade school.