Mosque at Ground Zero

[TashaN]

I know this was directed at Badran, but i hope you wouldn't mind if i answered you.

You make many a good point Badran. I cannot debate your statements with logic.

Let me ask you a question though. I believe it is a fair question.

How do you feel about a Christian going to Mecca? Before you answer this, how do you not know that if I did make this journey, I might be inspired to convert to Islam?

Hmmm, i thought America was the example which the world have to follow! no?

Any Muslim today can tell you clearly how many Muslim countries today are far behind the western world when it comes to freedom of expression, religious freedom, etc.

I find it odd that you are asking the *un-civilized* world such a question. You live in a democratic country but most of Muslims don't.

If you gave up in your values then there is nothing left for us to follow, don't you think so? We call this hypocrisy.

 

[YmirGF]

And Olbermann is by far the best speaker, and journalist, on television, bar none.

Though I am not a fan of any "talking heads" on American TV, Keith Olberman has to be one of the most self-righteous, pompous twits I have yet to see. To state that he is "by far the best speaker and journalist" is effectively assassinating any credibility you may have once had.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Another thing to think about: You know how when some people are asked to use culturally-sensitive language, they respond with, "Why can't they just get over it already?" I'll bet that those very same people would take great offense to the exact same response over this proposed cultural center.

 

[YmirGF]

Sorry Paul, but i'm somehow confused here. Don't you think you are you generalizing here? ALL Muslims were violent cowards?

I know you are not especially adept at gleaning salient points, TashaN, but you may want to read the statement, in context. It makes perfect sense. Just think about it a bit. It's OK, I'll wait.

 

[TashaN]

I know you are not especially adept at gleaning salient points, TashaN, but you may want to read the statement, in context. It makes perfect sense. Just think about it a bit. It's OK, I'll wait.

If i haven't read it all over and over i wouldn't have asked you. You know English is not my first language so can you please be kind enough and generous enough to clarify your statement for me?

 

[YmirGF]

If i haven't read it all over and over i wouldn't have asked you. You know English is not my first language so can you please be kind enough and generous enough to clarify your statement for me?

You English seems just fine most of the time, TashaN.

To recap:

Ineed! After almost a decade of the attack and how most of Americans react toward this issue, Bin Laden must be laughing by now. He proved his theory that the attack has split the world into two.

Ridiculous. The world was not of one mind prior to the event. Osama bin Hidin' merely awoke a people who were largely ignorant of, or indifferent to, Islam. By association, due to ignorance, Muslims were deemed to be violent cowards. The cartoon incident hardly improved this image. Nor did the Teddy bear fiasco... or the killing of Theo Van Gogh.

Sorry Paul, but i'm somehow confused here. Don't you think you are you generalizing here? ALL Muslims were violent cowards?

As a Muslim, you probably are not all that aware that people in North America prior to 9/11 knew little to nothing about Islam.
Almost nothing. It is only slightly better today.

What I am meaning is:

In the ignorant minds of the masses.... all Muslims were seen to be violent cowards... due to the statement(s) of the terrorists that cited Islamic scriptures. It took a rather long while to for people to educate themselves to understand that this was a small, radical group of Muslims who were not representative of Muslims IN GENERAL. Many people still do not realize this. In context, I was offering an opinion on how, people who knew nothing about Islam, took the words of the terrorists at face value and wrongly assumed the connection or "guilt by association".

Frankly speaking, the only ones left who still think that Muslims really are violent cowards are those who have not educated themselves about Islam.

Does that make more sense? I don't know that I can make it much plainer.

 

[arimoff]

Of course not all people who oppose this are necessarily doing this because they are racists or because they hate muslims or whatever.

However all the arguments i heard so far indicates that most of those people have terrible reasons behind their opposition. For those who might have the reason you proposed, being afraid or worried about the center being a nest for radicals, they are simply giving in to their naive feelings, and are doing something wrong based on those feelings.

How can it be guaranteed that the center will not be a nest to the radicals? why should muslims be obliged to meet their demands and provide them with a guarantee (assuming that is possible)? And why should people who simply want a guarantee oppose the building? I mean they are already acting on the supposed possibility that this center for some unexplained reason will be a "nest" for radicals.

your ignorance astonishes me, as if there is no radicals among Muslims?

 

[TashaN]

You English seems just fine most of the time, TashaN.

To recap:

As a Muslim, you probably are not all that aware that people in North America prior to 9/11 knew little to nothing about Islam.
Almost nothing. It is only slightly better today.

What I am meaning is:

In the ignorant minds of the masses.... all Muslims were seen to be violent cowards... due to the statement(s) of the terrorists that cited Islamic scriptures. It took a rather long while to for people to educate themselves to understand that this was a small, radical group of Muslims who were not representative of Muslims IN GENERAL. Many people still do not realize this. In context, I was offering an opinion on how, people who knew nothing about Islam, took the words of the terrorists at face value and wrongly assumed the connection or "guilt by association".

Frankly speaking, the only ones left who still think that Muslims really are violent cowards are those who have not educated themselves about Islam.

Does that make more sense? I don't know that I can make it much plainer.

Very clear now. I'm glad i was wrong. Thank you for clarifying that, and i agree with you, except for the part that they were thinking of all Muslims only as violent cowards. Many people thought of Muslims "especially middle eastern Muslims" as un-civilized but rich tribes who still live in the desert, have got oil, but still riding horses and camels.


EDIT: Hey, don't tell me many people still believe so until today?

 

[arimoff]

Are we going to be a religious tolerant country or not? I guess this is what it all boils down to. The thing is, we have taken this tolerance to a whole new level.

Christmas is coming and I don't want anyone defending the religious center flip flopping when it is time to decorate for the holiday.

Lets see what happens. In New York holiday season public places and streets are decorated with Christmas and Hanukkah decorations, street signs happy Hanukkah hang on the streets where churches are and Mary Christmas sighs hang on the streets where synagogues are and not only no body complains but people don't even notice it because its the norm. Knowing how low tempered Muslims are it will be interesting to see if they start to complain that New York is insulting their prophet and god by hanging happy Christmas and happy Hanukkah signs.

 

[TashaN]

your ignorance astonishes me, as if there is no radicals among Muslims?

No need for name calling please. Read below:

Imam at center of Ground Zero controversy helped Bush administration - Yahoo! News

That was interesting huh?

 

[beenie]

Thank you for your reply, Ssainhu. You are too kind in answering.

you're welcome.

To be honest, only hopeless fools are stating that it is in line of sight from the former World Trade Centre. In many ways, Imam Rauf brought this on himself due to the title of his book, "Seruan Azan Dari Puing WTC: Dakwah Islam di Jantung Amerika Pasca 9/11", which translates as "A Call to Prayer from the WTC Rubble: Islamic Dawah from the Heart of America Post 911". So, in reality, it is Imam Rauf who has placed himself at "ground zero", not others. Food for thought. For the record, I don't think many are stating that there is any doubt about the legality or even the right of Muslims to build this proposed "cultural centre".

we agree on this point. unfortunately, those "fools" are very loud and influential to those who are unfamiliar with NYC and Islam in general.

I agree 100% and am far from being impressed at Imam Rauf's handling of those who are against his proposal. Beside this is the fact that he doesn't own all the land required to build the proposed "cultural centre", as of yet. That is an interesting fact that not too many are dwelling on. To my knowledge the other owner of the remaining property hasn't said a word about his plans for his holdings, though I haven't been paying much attention for about a week. (It's too darn hot here... ... and this frost giant has been slowly melting.)

if Imam Rauf doesn't own the land yet, then i hope negotiations are still open. they sure should be.

I think it is intellectually dishonest hyperbole myself. The simple fact that Iman Rauf and his wife "Daisy" have handled the whole blowup over the proposed "cultural centre" very poorly and that does not bode well. Evidently this isn't the man to be asked to help build bridges although it certainly seems that there is no lack of people who would buy a bridge from him, sight unseen.

Again, his handling of the whole affair, thus far, doesn't give me much encouragement. Do remember also that this is a proposal for the largest mosque... sorry "cultural centre" in the United States. This isn't some small project. It's the biggest of its kind.

i will have to research Imam Rauf's dealings with the issue, as i haven't really heard much about him one way or the other. my focus isn't so much on him as it is on the project as a whole...which i have openly stated that i'm not 100% comfortable with.

Hmmm. Can I guess you a rain check on the trust thingy? The TV film "Dispatches: Undercover Mosque" about the goings on in the largest Mosque in England doesn't really give me much confidence that this group of Muslims will "do the right thing". The leaders of that mosque sound much like Imam Rauf.

i hope that if this project does go through, the people who run it can change all our minds. let me make this abundantly clear; i don't blindly trust anyone. just because they share my faith doesn't make me raise an eyebrow when proposing something so huge. however, i don't think Imam Rauf should be put under undue scrutiny that other religious leaders don't have to endure.

I appreciate your honesty. I really do.

thank you again.

I think you are seeing what you want to. IF anything, the leaders who oppose the building of this particular "cultural centre" implore their readers and listeners to learn as much about Islam as they can, so that they can decide for themselves. (Cool... an owl is hooting like crazy. In agreement? Hmmmm.)

could NOT agree more. i urge everyone to learn more about any culture/religion/situation before making any judgements. this goes for Muslims too. again, i don't blindly trust anyone. we as a Muslim community should decipher if Imam Rauf is a leader we wish to represent us, especially since this particular project is so spot-lighted and controversial.

I

really hear what you are saying. The thing that makes me wonder is why are we all so concerned about Muslim sensitivities and yet non-Muslims sensitivities are laughed out of the room? Are Muslims special or something?

Personally, I don't see anyone pushing around Muslims, other than perhaps, their fellow Muslims. So, are you folks special or what?

of course we're special. i kid, i kid. well, i suppose since Muslims are under scrutiny, we're all more sensitive and aware of the comments and thoughts about us as a whole. you'll have to admit, many are guilty of clumping all of us together as the "radical jihadists".

I don't listen to either of those fellows, though I am aware that they are greatly vilified. I haven't found much they had said to be of great interest, quite frankly. I do agree though, I think the VERY BEST course, would be for Imam Rauf to come up with an alternate location... further away that the site (he does not completely own -- yet) and announce publicly that he is doing so, not out of intimidation, but rather, out of sensitivity. This is about outreach and dialogue, after all. What's good for the goose is indeed good for the gander. I think if he were to do this, people would begin to take him a bit more seriously. It would show that he does actually know something about dialogue. Dialogue, by its very definition, IS a two-way street.

see, and i agree here as well. i would, as an American-born Muslim, have HUGE respect for Imam Rauf if he did exactly what you proposed. if he, out of sensitivity for the people affected by 9/11, proposed an alternate location for this center/mosque, then i would expect that others would cease questioning his motives as well. i would also hope that should he do this, the other location he chooses would not face the same fate this one could. perhaps his simple gesture to change the location would change the hearts of those who oppose it and some agreement could be made. i am a firm believer in dialogue and compromise.

The same applies to Muslims. Goose; gander...

lol i use the goose, gander argument on my kids daily.

 

[Evandr]

How can it be guaranteed that the center will not be a nest to the radicals? why should muslims be obliged to meet their demands and provide them with a guarantee (assuming that is possible)? And why should people who simply want a guarantee oppose the building? I mean they are already acting on the supposed possibility that this center for some unexplained reason will be a "nest" for radicals.

Here's a thought, If I were a Muslim extremists looking to build a nest of radicals I really do not think I would try to do it somewhere that would draw so much attention. I really think that that reason to oppose the Mosque is moot, if anything people that fear Islamic extremism should prefer the mosque be at a location that will continually have the results of extremism right around the corner; it would tend to prevent complacency on the issue of extremism.

I know that that sounds funny coming from me because, in previous posts, I have leaned toward being against the Mosque at this time so I guess, if I really try to look at all the issues and possibilities without bias, there are good arguments on both sides of the issue. I say we let the people of New York City and local governments handle it and just sit back and watch to see what we can learn from it without adding to the complications.

 

[croak]

I have another question. How easy or wise is it to build a Christian church in Islamic terrotories? I don't know if you can but even so, I would not want to be the priest standing on the door step welcoming in passers-by.

What do you mean by "Islamic territories"? If you mean places like Saudi Arabia, well, I think we can all agree that their laws are a little bit crazy (maybe a lot). If you mean Muslim-majority countries, well, I suggest you do your research. Take a look at Lebanon, for instance: mosques and churches all over the country, priests and sheikhs standing side by side....

I know, I'm comparing apples to oranges but this country was built on Christian principles, other religions came after and were accepted for who they were, they were given the right to come freely. At least owing the Christian world that much, is it really too hard to ask that a little restraint be exorcised out of respect for those thousands who might feel the heartach?

So much for those who came before.

But really, what is the point of what you're saying? A mosque shouldn't be built because the US was built on Christian principles and the 9/11 perpetrators were Muslim? Really, now?

I agree 100% and am far from being impressed at Imam Rauf's handling of those who are against his proposal. Beside this is the fact that he doesn't own all the land required to build the proposed "cultural centre", as of yet. That is an interesting fact that not too many are dwelling on. To my knowledge the other owner of the remaining property hasn't said a word about his plans for his holdings, though I haven't been paying much attention for about a week. (It's too darn hot here... ... and this frost giant has been slowly melting.)

I'll assume you haven't read the whole thread, so I'll forgive you for not taking page 16 into account: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2121064-post156.html

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have a question. Is it not the same Allah that is said to have made 9/11 a success for the terrorists by many Islamic faithful that is going to be worshiped in the proposed mosque?

Yup. Also the same Allah that you yourself worship, the same one that Abraham, Moses, Jesus, the Jews, and the Christians all pray to and worship.

 

[beenie]

Yup. Also the same Allah that you yourself worship, the same one that Abraham, Moses, Jesus, the Jews, and the Christians all pray to and worship.

yep. amazing, isn't it?

 

[croak]

Lets see what happens. In New York holiday season public places and streets are decorated with Christmas and Hanukkah decorations, street signs happy Hanukkah hang on the streets where churches are and Mary Christmas sighs hang on the streets where synagogues are and not only no body complains but people don't even notice it because its the norm. Knowing how low tempered Muslims are it will be interesting to see if they start to complain that New York is insulting their prophet and god by hanging happy Christmas and happy Hanukkah signs.

You make it sound like no Muslims whatsoever live in New York. They might as well be aliens.

Amazon.com: New York Masjid / Mosques Of New York (9781576871355): Jerrilynn Denise Dodds, Edward Grazda: Books - A nice book for your coffee table. Here's a book review. Over 90 in New York City alone? No waaay.

Here are some photos by the photographer: http://www2.soros.org/photogalleries/mw_gallery.php?series=/resources/events/mwinternational/grazda/.

 

[Alceste]

I agree. Do you think it is especially wise to build a mosque so close to ground zero? If so, why? If not, why not?

I don't think private citizens building a private project on private land should be obliged to participate in partisan political mud-slinging that panders to the worst of humanity, even when the polls show the ugliest side of human nature is currently prevailing.

 

[Evandr]

But really, what is the point of what you're saying? A mosque shouldn't be built because the US was built on Christian principles and the 9/11 perpetrators were Muslim? Really, now?

Anyone can be a hard liner; all you have to do is forget that liberties are based on more than rights, which is the only thing the courts can consider. A right, to be valuable must take into consideration wisdom, morals, ethics, and responsibility. Failure to take these other ramifications into consideration is like using a very big hammer to drive a peg into a hole that it might be the wrong shape or size for. Rights are not always as black and white as some would make them out to be. The proposed site for the Mosque might be the very most ideal spot in all of New York to build it but hard lining the idea as a legal right, dismissing as bigots and unpatriotic snobs anyone with a contrary opinion, places the hard liner in the same need of critical judgment as those whom they decry.

 

[Alceste]

Is the god of Fred Phelps the god of Evandr?

It might not be an ideal perspective, but I think until the psychological wounds of the families badgered at their loved ones' funerals have healed Evandr ought to restrain himself from openly practicing worship of Phelps' god.

 

[arimoff]

Yup. Also the same Allah that you yourself worship, the same one that Abraham, Moses, Jesus, the Jews, and the Christians all pray to and worship.

No its not the same, Jews do not worship Allah!!!