Forgive me for not following you easily. But, do you mean to point out that their feelings (those who oppose this, or have ill-feelings towards muslims) are understandable? Or something else?
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Mosque at Ground Zero
- Thread starter 6Michael6Bennett6
- Start date
Forgive me for not following you easily. But, do you mean to point out that their feelings (those who oppose this, or have ill-feelings towards muslims) are understandable? Or something else?
OK. I think I see where you're coming from. Thanks for taking the time to clarify it. I guess we simply disagree about what should be done, although we have reached some of the same conclusions otherwise.
Evandr
Stripling Warrior
I have another question. How easy or wise is it to build a Christian church in Islamic terrotories? I don't know if you can but even so, I would not want to be the priest standing on the door step welcoming in passers-by.
I know, I'm comparing apples to oranges but this country was built on Christian principles, other religions came after and were accepted for who they were, they were given the right to come freely. At least owing the Christian world that much, is it really too hard to ask that a little restraint be exorcised out of respect for those thousands who might feel the heartach?
I know, I'm comparing apples to oranges but this country was built on Christian principles, other religions came after and were accepted for who they were, they were given the right to come freely. At least owing the Christian world that much, is it really too hard to ask that a little restraint be exorcised out of respect for those thousands who might feel the heartach?
Evandr
Stripling Warrior
Sloppy reasoning- Yes it is- but it is a reality and those billion Muslims are not the ones surrounding ground zero.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
In a Sharia nation, it is forbidden.
That's because, unlike us, they don't protect freedom of religion. Our system is better. We should celebrate and protect it, don't you agree?
No, it most certainly was not.
There were Jews in America long before the revolution.
What on earth does Christianity have to do with it? Are you under the mistaken impression that either the country or the victims of terrorism are Christian?
Evandr
Stripling Warrior
Pain is a hard thing to set aside, it takes time. Not all who have ill feelings toward Islam are justified but some ill feelings cannot simply be erased. There are still Jews alive who have the brands of concentration camps on their arms and who resent Germany for it. Are they justified because of the horrific memories even though time has all but erased the terrible realities of it? Justification always has and always will take into consideration the mental capacity of those on whom it may have claim. Those living who suffer at the losses sustained on 9/11 have the right to some justification with regard to their position on the proposed mosque. Others may not have so much but there is a lot of gray area here. Cold hearted attitudes can be just as real from those who want to ignore the pain of others thinking their self righteousness is somehow justified. Holding hands and singing choom-bi-yah cannot be the answer to every problem.
Evandr
Stripling Warrior
Yes I would but not everyone will
Yes, it most certainly was
Let's go a bit further back, say to the pilgrims.
Everything, this is a Christian Nation.
By and Large, yes, this is a Christian nation, it is all over our judicial system, on our money, and even in our constitution. Just because you are not a "Christian" does not mean you are not in a Christian Nation.
I think i understand. I agree that being cold hearted and strict and so on isn't useful, no doubt about that.
But those people who hold these feelings, you're saying should be at least understood and considered even though their feelings are not right or justifiable. I mean hating all germans for example is not justifiable. So to what extent? If you mean merely understanding, okay.
What do you mean by Islamic territories?
If you mean Islamic countries, then aside from a couple of very ugly places, churches are built everywhere. Those countries like Iran or Afghanistan are not really prime examples for muslims, neither do lots of muslims consider their system to be an Islamic one.
Its also worth mentioning that today countries in the areas which contain the majority of muslims are not exactly known to be great countries to live in. Point being, today the example shouldn't be set by those countries. The US have a standard, a high standard concerning this issue, and living to it only affirms its position.
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Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Yes, I realize that not everyone cherishes our constitutional rights.
Baloney. Want to start a thread?
Let's go a bit further back, to Columbus, who had at least one known Jew on board his ship, Luis de Torres.
The first Jews came to North America in 1654.
America has never been a "Christian" nation. It was established for all religions.
No, it is a secular nation. That's what our ancestors fought and died for.
I'll tell you what it isn't. It isn't a Mormon nation.
You're just plain wrong. I'll tell you what. If you can find a single reference to Jesus Christ or God in the Constitution, I'll retract and apologize. If you can't, will you do the same?.
This nation was founded because and on the concept that Christian nations are a bad idea. The whole point of America is religious freedom.
legal? yes, wise? that's a tough one. i'm not a proponent of giving into the bullies/propagandists/brainwashers that are making it sound like this center is being built in the exact location of Tower 1 or Tower 2...nor do i support the bullies who have destroyed the trust of the world with terrorist acts.
personally, i see both sides to this. one side is that i think it's taking a huge risk on an already eggshell relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims. BUT i also agree with the idea that in 20 years, people will realize that the cultural center was indeed a good idea. it has to be run properly though...and extremism and radicalism must be forbidden in order for it to succeed. how do you control that? well, the only people who can are Muslims themselves...so trust has to be given.
so in other words, i'm completely torn. i hate racism and bigotry, and i do feel that's what most staunch opposers are demonstrating and using to scare undecided citizens of New York and the US in general. on the other hand, i am struggling with the idea of pushing a relationship between Muslims and the rest of the world that is so delicate beyond what's comfortable to everyone. i can't sit by and have Muslims pushed around either...so i would hope that should the mosque be moved to another location, it would be the decision of Muslims to do so out of sensitivity of a relationship, not because of false-placed fear and bully-type tactics that would force them to do so -- especially by the Rush Limbaughs and Sean Hannitys of the world. i feel that there are many neutral people out there that could be influenced by the fear instilled by them and several others...and that's terrorism in its own right.
there are churches in Muslim countries. Iran, Syria, Pakistan...only Saudi Arabia doesn't allow practice of other religions outwardly, but since they also don't allow women to drive for some stupid reason, i don't give them much credence anyway.
Greetings. Here are some points for consideration or perhaps reinforcement of previous points in favor of the cultural center. Apologies if they and the references have been offered previously (didn't read every post).
All feel the sensitivities of victim families of the 9/11 event but much of the opposition to the center is because of intolerance - generalization from the act of a few terrorists to a bias against Islam. One must admire the wisdom of the following 9/11 family member (who favors the mosque) who said- "But those who are intolerant exemplify the best reason of all for its (the Mosque's) existence." This is taken from the article: [FONT="]9-11 Family Member: Core Beliefs Frame Mosque Debate - City Conversations - City Limits Magazine - CityLimits.org.
In remembering the sensitivities one must consider that many victim families are in favor of the cultural center and also that Muslims were killed in the tragedy. (Noted by Mayor Bloomberg.)
In his public statement supporting the cultural center, Mayor Bloomberg reminds of the difficult early paths that elements of this country came through to secure one of the most important freedoms- religious freedom. [/FONT] [FONT="]Mayor Bloomberg Stands Up For Mosque. Shouldn't one protect this freedom in an uncompromising manner now?
Fred Koch's unique view on supporting the Mosque: [/FONT] Koch On Mosque: Let's Be Calm Now - City Conversations - City Limits Magazine - CityLimits.org.
Another point, the cultural center is for the neighborhood and is needed there. Check out this article from the Washington Post by a Muslim and read about the developers who are proposing the center in the subsequent article.
Guest Voices: Mosque near Ground Zero? "It's about the community, stupid" - On Faith at washingtonpost.com .
Meet the âGround Zero Mosqueâ Developer | The New York Observer .
Last point: one must not fall victim to the terrorists oneself and allow the wedge to be with all of Islam (that's what the terrorists want) and not realistically and singly with the true offenders. Avoiding this victimization favors a show of support for our Islam brothers regarding this cultural center.
).All feel the sensitivities of victim families of the 9/11 event but much of the opposition to the center is because of intolerance - generalization from the act of a few terrorists to a bias against Islam. One must admire the wisdom of the following 9/11 family member (who favors the mosque) who said- "But those who are intolerant exemplify the best reason of all for its (the Mosque's) existence." This is taken from the article: [FONT="]9-11 Family Member: Core Beliefs Frame Mosque Debate - City Conversations - City Limits Magazine - CityLimits.org.
In remembering the sensitivities one must consider that many victim families are in favor of the cultural center and also that Muslims were killed in the tragedy. (Noted by Mayor Bloomberg.)
In his public statement supporting the cultural center, Mayor Bloomberg reminds of the difficult early paths that elements of this country came through to secure one of the most important freedoms- religious freedom. [/FONT] [FONT="]Mayor Bloomberg Stands Up For Mosque. Shouldn't one protect this freedom in an uncompromising manner now?
Fred Koch's unique view on supporting the Mosque: [/FONT] Koch On Mosque: Let's Be Calm Now - City Conversations - City Limits Magazine - CityLimits.org.
Another point, the cultural center is for the neighborhood and is needed there. Check out this article from the Washington Post by a Muslim and read about the developers who are proposing the center in the subsequent article.
Guest Voices: Mosque near Ground Zero? "It's about the community, stupid" - On Faith at washingtonpost.com .
Meet the âGround Zero Mosqueâ Developer | The New York Observer .
Last point: one must not fall victim to the terrorists oneself and allow the wedge to be with all of Islam (that's what the terrorists want) and not realistically and singly with the true offenders. Avoiding this victimization favors a show of support for our Islam brothers regarding this cultural center.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Thank you for your reply, Ssainhu. You are too kind in answering.
To be honest, only hopeless fools are stating that it is in line of sight from the former World Trade Centre. In many ways, Imam Rauf brought this on himself due to the title of his book, "Seruan Azan Dari Puing WTC: Dakwah Islam di Jantung Amerika Pasca 9/11", which translates as "A Call to Prayer from the WTC Rubble: Islamic Dawah from the Heart of America Post 911". So, in reality, it is Imam Rauf who has placed himself at "ground zero", not others. Food for thought. For the record, I don't think many are stating that there is any doubt about the legality or even the right of Muslims to build this proposed "cultural centre".
I agree 100% and am far from being impressed at Imam Rauf's handling of those who are against his proposal. Beside this is the fact that he doesn't own all the land required to build the proposed "cultural centre", as of yet. That is an interesting fact that not too many are dwelling on. To my knowledge the other owner of the remaining property hasn't said a word about his plans for his holdings, though I haven't been paying much attention for about a week. (It's too darn hot here... ... and this frost giant has been slowly melting.)
I think it is intellectually dishonest hyperbole myself. The simple fact that Iman Rauf and his wife "Daisy" have handled the whole blowup over the proposed "cultural centre" very poorly and that does not bode well. Evidently this isn't the man to be asked to help build bridges although it certainly seems that there is no lack of people who would buy a bridge from him, sight unseen.
Again, his handling of the whole affair, thus far, doesn't give me much encouragement. Do remember also that this is a proposal for the largest mosque... sorry "cultural centre" in the United States. This isn't some small project. It's the biggest of its kind.
Hmmm. Can I guess you a rain check on the trust thingy? The TV film "Dispatches: Undercover Mosque" about the goings on in the largest Mosque in England doesn't really give me much confidence that this group of Muslims will "do the right thing". The leaders of that mosque sound much like Imam Rauf.and extremism and radicalism must be forbidden in order for it to succeed. how do you control that? well, the only people who can are Muslims themselves...so trust has to be given.
I appreciate your honesty. I really do.
I think you are seeing what you want to. IF anything, the leaders who oppose the building of this particular "cultural centre" implore their readers and listeners to learn as much about Islam as they can, so that they can decide for themselves. (Cool... an owl is hooting like crazy. In agreement? Hmmmm.)
I really hear what you are saying. The thing that makes me wonder is why are we all so concerned about Muslim sensitivities and yet non-Muslims sensitivities are laughed out of the room? Are Muslims special or something?
Personally, I don't see anyone pushing around Muslims, other than perhaps, their fellow Muslims. So, are you folks special or what?
I don't listen to either of those fellows, though I am aware that they are greatly vilified. I haven't found much they had said to be of great interest, quite frankly. I do agree though, I think the VERY BEST course, would be for Imam Rauf to come up with an alternate location... further away that the site (he does not completely own -- yet) and announce publicly that he is doing so, not out of intimidation, but rather, out of sensitivity. This is about outreach and dialogue, after all. What's good for the goose is indeed good for the gander. I think if he were to do this, people would begin to take him a bit more seriously. It would show that he does actually know something about dialogue. Dialogue, by its very definition, IS a two-way street.
The same applies to Muslims. Goose; gander...
arimoff
Active Member
Can we say that at least some of all those who are against the Islamic center being built there are just scared that radicals can be behind all of this and the consequences it can bring? I wouldn't be surprised that there are haters and racists among all those who are against it but some people are actually scared and can't trust politicians to properly take care of the situation? I'm not trying to say that it will become a nest for radicals but who can guaranty that it will not? certainly not the Imam since he can't even handle it correctly from the start?
Of course not all people who oppose this are necessarily doing this because they are racists or because they hate muslims or whatever.
However all the arguments i heard so far indicates that most of those people have terrible reasons behind their opposition. For those who might have the reason you proposed, being afraid or worried about the center being a nest for radicals, they are simply giving in to their naive feelings, and are doing something wrong based on those feelings.
How can it be guaranteed that the center will not be a nest to the radicals? why should muslims be obliged to meet their demands and provide them with a guarantee (assuming that is possible)? And why should people who simply want a guarantee oppose the building? I mean they are already acting on the supposed possibility that this center for some unexplained reason will be a "nest" for radicals.
Are we going to be a religious tolerant country or not? I guess this is what it all boils down to. The thing is, we have taken this tolerance to a whole new level.
Christmas is coming and I don't want anyone defending the religious center flip flopping when it is time to decorate for the holiday.
Christmas is coming and I don't want anyone defending the religious center flip flopping when it is time to decorate for the holiday.
You make many a good point Badran. I cannot debate your statements with logic.
Let me ask you a question though. I believe it is a fair question.
How do you feel about a Christian going to Mecca? Before you answer this, how do you not know that if I did make this journey, I might be inspired to convert to Islam?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I haven't heard anyone saying they don't have the RIGHT to build the mosque - if people are saying that, they are certainly a tiny minority.
67% of Americans however, do think it's insensitive of the group to build a mosque so close the the site of what is basically a mass grave of people killed by Muslim extremists.
And my children in the military WOULD die for the cause of religious freedom -including this group's religious freedom.
But we're getting redundant now.
logician
Well-Known Member
1. There is no separation of church and state in islamic countries. You ,being an atheist , would find yourself ostracized in short order over there. It happens within christian communities in many parts of THIS country.
2. How about a billboard with a picture of muhammed on it put up ANYWHERE. Not gonna happen, so much for the first amendment.
3.and 4. Why is it that atheists always have to beat the dead horse of the right wing conspiracy when the left has shown itself more than capable of the same predjudices and double standards.
Free thinker means we think.
By the way, I wouldn't trust Olberman's opinion on how to clip your toenails.
1. Brilliant statement, there is, however separation of church and state in this one.
2. Another brilliant statement, nothing to do with the thread topic.
3. Total BS, the RW is has gone so far to the right, they've gone over the cliff. The so-called left is now dead center.
And Olbermann is by far the best speaker, and journalist, on television, bar none.
Beck by comparison belongs in an institution.
Sorry Paul, but i'm somehow confused here. Don't you think you are you generalizing here? ALL Muslims were violent cowards?
HonestJoe
Well-Known Member
Not in so many words but plenty of people are saying it shouldn't happen and politicians are certainly under indirect pressure to try to prevent it from happening.
If that's what they were asked, I'm not surprised. I wonder what the result would be if they were asked about what is actually proposed. The problem is that none of the surveys were carried out before all the rhetoric had been stirred up.
I also wonder how many of the surveys asked people why is would be insensitive. I'm not convinced many in that 67% would be able to give a clear answer.