Mosque at Ground Zero

[Badran]

Only "some Japanese" bombed Pearl Harbor.

The difference is in that incident it was a full scale war between two countries. A war between Japan and the United states where lots of horrible things have happened. However, in this case a few number of people carried out an individual attack towards the US.

The images of jubilant middle eastern Muslims dancing in the streets celebrating 9/11 are forever etched in the minds of many people. We know it was only "some Muslims" that flew those planes into those buildings - but we also know that thousands and thousands of Muslims worldwide celebrated that event as an Islamic victory. This is what I call an "unfortuate truth."

I don't recall ANY American Muslims doing so (though I'm sure there were some radicals - Muslim AND non Muslim - who thought the US deserved exactly what happened that day). I do recall scattered instances of American Muslims being harrassed shortly after 9/11. This is also an "unfortunate truth."

Exactly, this is also not representing muslim population. Lots of people Muslims and non-muslims had the horrible mentality that the US deserved this. I even saw a link here about 5 Israeli citizens who were reported to be doing the same. Also, like you said some middle eastern muslims where the ones seen or reported to do this, not American muslims. My point is lots of people have this mentality against the US. Its not something about or exclusive to muslims.

The bottom line is that emotions run very high, and are still very raw, regarding the events of that terrible day. To me, this imam is pouring salt in wounds. He knows that many New Yorkers, who were very personally impacted that day, and whose loved ones will never even be FOUND, oppose the PROXIMITY of this mosque. For whatever reasons, he has decided to be incredibly insensitive to their feelings. This is also an "unfortunate truth."

This brings his motives into speculation and suspicion. HE has instigated this level of suspicion by his level of insensitivity.

Most New Yorkers don't oppose the mosque's location just because it's a Muslim mosque (there are at least 100 mosques in NYC and to my knowledge, their members worship freely and peacefully in those mosques). Most people simply don't want it in the same vicinity that their loved one's ashes floated to the ground.

Do you mean, that the imam should be sensitive enough to not propose or not build this mosque/center in that place even though there is nothing wrong with that, or that he is wrong to build the mosque there( but should be allowed to)?

I mean, if your point is that he should not do this not because its wrong, and not because the arguments against the mosque/center is right, but as an extra effort to show that he is considerate to the feelings of the people who oppose it, even though they are not correct on those feelings, i would agree. But i wouldn't call him insensitive or at least deliberately insensitive towards them. Because their feelings towards him or his proposed building are not justified, so he doesn't have to oblige them.

 

[kiwimac]

Just FYI:

Feisal Abdul Rauf of the Cordoba Initiative is one of America’s leading thinkers of Sufism, the mystical form of Islam, which in terms of goals and outlook couldn’t be farther from the violent Wahhabism of the jihadists. His videos and sermons preach love, the remembrance of God (or “zikr&#8221 and reconciliation. His slightly New Agey rhetoric makes him sound, for better or worse, like a Muslim Deepak Chopra. But in the eyes of Osama bin Laden and the Taliban, he is an infidel-loving, grave-worshiping apostate; they no doubt regard him as a legitimate target for assassination.

For such moderate, pluralistic Sufi imams are the front line against the most violent forms of Islam. In the most radical parts of the Muslim world, Sufi leaders risk their lives for their tolerant beliefs, every bit as bravely as American troops on the ground in Baghdad and Kabul do. Sufism is the most pluralistic incarnation of Islam — accessible to the learned and the ignorant, the faithful and nonbelievers — and is thus a uniquely valuable bridge between East and West.

The great Sufi saints like the 13th-century Persian poet Rumi held that all existence and all religions were one, all manifestations of the same divine reality. What was important was not the empty ritual of the mosque, church, synagogue or temple, but the striving to understand that divinity can best be reached through the gateway of the human heart: that we all can find paradise within us, if we know where to look. In some ways Sufism, with its emphasis on love rather than judgment, represents the New Testament of Islam.

 

[beenie]

as always, Badran says what I'm thinking as well.

The difference is in that incident it was a full scale war between two countries. A war between Japan and the United states where lots of horrible things have happened. However, in this case a few number of people carried out an individual attack towards the US.



Exactly, this is also not representing muslim population. Lots of people Muslims and non-muslims had the horrible mentality that the US deserved this. I even saw a link here about 5 Israeli citizens who were reported to be doing the same. Also, like you said some middle eastern muslims where the ones seen or reported to do this, not American muslims. My point is lots of people have this mentality against the US. Its not something about or exclusive to muslims.



Do you mean, that the imam should be sensitive enough to not propose or not build this mosque/center in that place even though there is nothing wrong with that, or that he is wrong to build the mosque there( but should be allowed to)?

I mean, if your point is that he should not do this not because its wrong, and not because the arguments against the mosque/center is right, but as an extra effort to show that he is considerate to the feelings of the people who oppose it, even though they are not correct on those feelings, i would agree. But i wouldn't call him insensitive or at least deliberately insensitive towards them. Because their feelings towards him or his proposed building are not justified, so he doesn't have to oblige them.

 

[Autodidact]

The proposed mosque is two blocks from Ground Zero. I've seen several maps of the area with the site clearly marked.

Democrats are once again throwing the race/creed card and attempting to demonize those who disagree with their stance. Nothing new there.

67% of those polled believe that it is LEGAL for the mosque to be built there. However, nearly the same number believe it is in POOR TASTE for the mosque to be built there.

If the imam and his supporters/funders are truly so concerned about bettering relations within their community, they would not be so adamant about that particular site.

I'm saying they should not be LEGALLY barred from building there. But I also am saying it's poor judgment - at best. Very insensitive.

It's about like Japanese Americans wanting to erect a Shinto temple on the shores of Pearl Harbor ten years after the war. Not cool. That doesn't mean people hate Japanese Americans. It would simply not have been seen as a conciliatory or even neutral statement.

Like I've said before, everything that's legal certainly isn't in good taste or common sense. If that was the case, I could buy whiskey on Sunday around here.

I disagree. What these people are trying to do is to oppose the terrorist view that Americans are their enemy, by making a stand for a united U.S. that respects freedom of religion. The terrorists are trying to divide us between Muslims and infidels. These people are opposing that view, opposing terrorism with brotherhood. Too bad we screwed it up. Chalk up another victory for the terrorists.

ETA: So that's why lower Manhattan is the best, the perfect place for this building. It's a big F U to the terrorists.

 

[Sunstone]

I disagree. What these people are trying to do is to oppose the terrorist view that Americans are their enemy, by making a stand for a united U.S. that respects freedom of religion. The terrorists are trying to divide us between Muslims and infidels. These people are opposing that view, opposing terrorism with brotherhood. Too bad we screwed it up. Chalk up another victory for the terrorists.

Precisely. The response of the majority of Americans to this issue is a victory for the terrorists.

 

[Sunstone]

Coming in new to this so I may have missed this point being made already;
Have the people who consider it insensitive to have an Islamic Centre/Mosque built near Ground Zero considered the similar insensitivity of opposing it? Don't you think peaceful American Muslims might feel just as upset at being implicitly linked with the murderous terrorists and being effectively told they have no place in a whole section of the city as (some of) the 9/11 victims and families feel at the idea of the Mosque being built near by?

Good point.

 

[Sunstone]

This is absurd. I don't understand. The attack was done by some Muslims, not by all Muslims. This is like saying Germans can't have a language center at certain places because of what Hitler did. Heck, that was even worse because the war was against the entire country "Germany".

According to several sources, Pamela Geller is the person most responsible for cooking up opposition to the mosque / center. She's an irrational, despicable ***** who even Paypal will not do business with on the grounds that she runs a "hate site" on the internet. Here's a link to her blog / hate site.

 

[YmirGF]

According to several sources, Pamela Geller is the person most responsible for cooking up opposition to the mosque / center. She's an irrational, despicable ***** who even Paypal will not do business with on the grounds that she runs a "hate site" on the internet. Here's a link to her blog / hate site.

It is a matter of record, upon investigation, PayPal rescinded its position and offered to accept her business again. The "incident" was the result of an automated reaction to a complaint. Humans at PayPal reviewed her site and immediately retracted their automated decision. As a result of her experience with PayPal, Geller decided that she wasn't going to bother with a company that ruled long-standing clients are guilty without actually looking into the validity of the complaints. Geller mused that if it could happen to her and Atlasshrugs, it could happen to anyone who receives a complaint.

I'd say that she is certainly no worse than Nancy Pelosi.... I'm just saying.

 

[TashaN]

Precisely. The response of the majority of Americans to this issue is a victory for the terrorists.

Ineed! After almost a decade of the attack and how most of Americans react toward this issue, Bin Laden must be laughing by now. He proved his theory that the attack has split the world into two. Those who would directly be affected are the Muslims in this country. I know it's just feelings and new yorkers might not help this feeling of hate and anger, but i want to remind them that how they react will determine the future of America.

If you allowed these feelings to humiliate the foundations which this country was built on, then you will push the Muslim Americans into the corner of isolation, and that will increase simpathizers with Bin Laden's goals. If you have done the contrary, then that will be like a stab in Bin Laden's heart, because he could destroy buildings made of iron and bricks, but not that made of hearts and souls.

It's your chance now Americans to choose whether to honor your ideals and values or ruin it for good. Remember that what happen in America or by Americans will affect the whole world.

 

[Autodidact]

Ineed! After almost a decade of the attack and how most of Americans react toward this issue, Bin Laden must be laughing by now. He proved his theory that the attack has split the world into two. Those who would directly be affected are the Muslims in this country. I know it's just feelings and new yorkers might not help this feeling of hate and anger, but i want to remind them that how they react will determine the future of America.

If you allowed these feelings to humiliate the foundations which this country was built on, then you will push the Muslim Americans into the corner of isolation, and that will increase simpathizers with Bin Laden's goals. If you have done the contrary, then that will be like a stab in Bin Laden's heart, because he could destroy buildings made of iron and bricks, but not that made of hearts and souls.

It's your chance now Americans to choose whether to honor your ideals and values or ruin it for good. Remember that what happen in America or by Americans will affect the whole world.

What Tasha said. The haters tricked the gullible into another stupid move. Any true American should be willing to die for the right of this group to build this building.

 

[Sunstone]

It is a matter of record, upon investigation, PayPal rescinded its position and offered to accept her business again. The "incident" was the result of an automated reaction to a complaint. Humans at PayPal reviewed her site and immediately retracted their automated decision. As a result of her experience with PayPal, Geller decided that she wasn't going to bother with a company that ruled long-standing clients are guilty without actually looking into the validity of the complaints. Geller mused that if it could happen to her and Atlasshrugs, it could happen to anyone who receives a complaint.

I'd say that she is certainly no worse than Nancy Pelosi.... I'm just saying.

Thanks for the update. She's still an irrational, despicable *****. Just saying.

 

[beenie]

Ineed! After almost a decade of the attack and how most of Americans react toward this issue, Bin Laden must be laughing by now. He proved his theory that the attack has split the world into two. Those who would directly be affected are the Muslims in this country. I know it's just feelings and new yorkers might not help this feeling of hate and anger, but i want to remind them that how they react will determine the future of America.

If you allowed these feelings to humiliate the foundations which this country was built on, then you will push the Muslim Americans into the corner of isolation, and that will increase simpathizers with Bin Laden's goals. If you have done the contrary, then that will be like a stab in Bin Laden's heart, because he could destroy buildings made of iron and bricks, but not that made of hearts and souls.

It's your chance now Americans to choose whether to honor your ideals and values or ruin it for good. Remember that what happen in America or by Americans will affect the whole world.

excellent post, TashaN. :yes:

What Tasha said. The haters tricked the gullible into another stupid move. Any true American should be willing to die for the right of this group to build this building.

indeed.

my point above was not that this building shouldn't be built...my point was that i would have reservations building it only because i do fear for the negative outcome that could ensue. unjust and un-constitutional, but still a possibility.

 

[Autodidact]

Y'know what, I think giving in to bullies just emboldens them. The sponsors of this project should go ahead with it and help build community regardless of what the haters say.

Truth to tell, I think these racist demagogues have a similar mentality to the Taliban.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't remember if it was Jon Stewert or Colbert, but one of them mentioned that a mosque was built four or five blocks away from Ground Zero only three days after 9/11. Now in my perspective, three days would seem much more of a sensitive issue rather than nearly a decade later.

Democrats are once again throwing the race/creed card and attempting to demonize those who disagree with their stance. Nothing new there.

What other valid reason is their for opposing this? New York already has lots of mosques, so why complain about one that is essentially another YMCA with a mosque built into it? And no, it being "hollowed" or "sacred" ground is NOT why they are fighting this. They are fighting it simply because it is Muslim themed. If they really wanted to fight it, because it would be a slap in the face to those who died or lost friends/loved ones, morals, or whatever reason, then why did they not fight the strip clubs that are around Ground Zero?
'Hallowed Ground' of the Ground Zero Mosque Lined With Strip Clubs, OTB - Asylum.com
It's a case of hatred and intolerance, pure and simple.
Again, protesting this mosque/community center would be like protesting a new Baptist church because Fred Phelps church has protested the funerals of fallen soldiers. The groups are not affiliated at all, and to punish the group that is not responsible is to simply a foolish thing to do.

 

[Evandr]

What Tasha said. The haters tricked the gullible into another stupid move. Any true American should be willing to die for the right of this group to build this building.

yeah, over 3000 already have.

 

[painted wolf]

IMHO The only reason this is an issue is that some people want to use it for elections distractions.

wa:do

 

[croak]

yeah, over 3000 already have.

The people who died on 9/11 died for the right to build this building? I'm under the impression they died because some people in this world are just friggin' insane, but I might be wrong.

 

[Alceste]

excellent post, TashaN. :yes:




indeed.

my point above was not that this building shouldn't be built...my point was that i would have reservations building it only because i do fear for the negative outcome that could ensue. unjust and un-constitutional, but still a possibility.

You needn't have any worries about this project that you don't have for all new mosques and Islamic institutions. There have been anti-Islamic protests across the country against pretty much all builing proposals by Muslims. The Ground Zero justification is a ruse intended to add a thin veneer of rationality to a plainly racist movement.

 

[YmirGF]

Ineed! After almost a decade of the attack and how most of Americans react toward this issue, Bin Laden must be laughing by now. He proved his theory that the attack has split the world into two.

Ridiculous. The world was not of one mind prior to the event. Osama bin Hidin' merely awoke a people who were largely ignorant of, or indifferent to, Islam. By association, due to ignorance, Muslims were deemed to be violent cowards. The cartoon incident hardly improved this image. Nor did the Teddy bear fiasco... or the killing of Theo Van Gogh.

Those who would directly be affected are the Muslims in this country.

As should be expected. Ignorance has a strange effect on people especially when the object the are focusing on seems fairly foreign to their sensibilities. Take the cartoon incident again, for example. Ignorant people have a penchant for behaving badly.

I know it's just feelings and new yorkers might not help this feeling of hate and anger, but i want to remind them that how they react will determine the future of America.

That is a somewhat chilling point, even for you, TashaN. So we must capitulate to Muslim sensitivities even when the majority of Americans find the building of the mosque to be offensive? If not offensive, then surely, not the wisest idea.

If you allowed these feelings to humiliate the foundations which this country was built on, then you will push the Muslim Americans into the corner of isolation, and that will increase simpathizers with Bin Laden's goals.

Excuse me? This "Cordoba House" initiative is billed as a beginning of an interfaith dialogue where all people will be welcome to come. Unfortunately, the dialogue doesn't seem to be going too well, so far. Just because they have a right to build the mosque 600 feet from the remains of the former World Trade towers doesn't necessarily mean that it is the wisest game plan to do so. The way they have handled people who are not supportive of their cause does not bode well. Just a small note, but the proposal would make it the largest Mosque complex in the United States. So... this isn't just a small "neighborhood house".

If you have done the contrary, then that will be like a stab in Bin Laden's heart, because he could destroy buildings made of iron and bricks, but not that made of hearts and souls.

So, I guess the choice is to embrace Islam by hook or by crook, eh?

It's your chance now Americans to choose whether to honor your ideals and values or ruin it for good. Remember that what happen in America or by Americans will affect the whole world.

Yes. The Catch-22 of religious freedom. Isn't it strange that so much is expected from the incredibly vilified Americans? It is odd that we don't expect the same level of sanity from the Muslim world. I wonder why that is? Pity there wasn't a guideline for the imprudence of proposals.

 

[Autodidact]

yeah, over 3000 already have.

Hmmm...how shall I put this? Oh yeah. You're wrong.

So basically you're not a big first amendment, freedom of religion fan?