Mosque at Ground Zero

[Cypress]

Problem is: Currently Muslims seem to think that tolerance is a one-way-road.
You receive it from the non-Muslims under the pretext of freedom, tolerance & eqality but you are not required to give it back unto them.

 

[YmirGF]

The evidence of misinformation and hate spread by those opposing the Center based on it being Islamic shows who the knuckle-draggers are.

Does this include Howard Dean who would prefer to see the proposal moved to a different site and does this include Harry Reid who is against the proposal?

And if 69% of Americans want to deny the rights of one religious group based soley on that groups religion, then they deserve to be insulted.

Evidently you are in the 31% group who know so much better than everyone else. You should start an education column to raise the intelligence of your fellow Americans. No doubt you think that Keith Olberman is a briliant ahhh... "journalist" too.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Does this include Howard Dean who would prefer to see the proposal moved to a different site and does this include Harry Reid who is against the proposal?

Yes. Do not assume that party affiliation means they cannot be among the misinformed majority.

Evidently you are in the 31% group who know so much better than everyone else.

You seem stuck on the idea that majority rules.

You should start an education column to raise the intelligence of your fellow Americans.

Currently I concentrate on educating my children in tolerance ethical behavior.

No doubt you think that Keith Olberman is a briliant ahhh... "journalist" too.

I trust no journalist completely. Why the ad hominem assumption?

 

[YmirGF]

Yes. Do not assume that party affiliation means they cannot be among the misinformed majority.

Does this mean that you are actually informed on the topic? I really hadn't noticed that you are.

You seem stuck on the idea that majority rules.

It certainly seems to apply when electing a president or passing/ramming through a piece of legislation or in the rendered opinions of the Supreme Court. What WAS I thinking?

Currently I concentrate on educating my children in tolerance ethical behavior.

Are you going to encourage them to be intolerant of intolerance too? :flirt:
Personal aside: I'm just not that big on "ethics" per se, beyond "Do unto others, as you would have them do you". I don't perceive a need to go much further than that.

I trust no journalist completely. Why the ad hominem assumption?

It was a whimsical footnote and meant more in jest, revisiting Logician's remarks about what a brilliant journalist Olby is. Forgive me for tarring you with the same brush. :shout

 

[tumbleweed41]

Does this mean that you are actually informed on the topic? I really hadn't noticed that you are.

What would you like to know?
The architectural plans for the center?
The basic beliefs of Sufi Islam as compared to that of those who attacked the WTC?
Information on the Establishment Clause and it's relation to the issue?
The history of the founding fathers opposition to the majority oppressing the minority? Supreme court decisions concerning the same?
The history of the proposed site since 2009?

Or just my opinion on how the politics of hate and fear are feeding into the desires of those who organized the attack on 9/11?

It certainly seems to apply when electing a president or passing/ramming through a piece of legislation or in the rendered opinions of the Supreme Court. What WAS I thinking?

Do you understand how a representative democracy works?
Or the Electoral College?
Or how the balance of power is supposed to work in the three branches of American government?

Are you going to encourage them to be intolerant of intolerance too? :flirt:

Yes. Intolerance and intentional ignorance are social ills that need to be cured.
From the preponderance of ignorance, hate and fear perpetrated by, so it seems, the majority of Americans, our children seem to be our only hope.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Problem is: Currently Muslims seem to think that tolerance is a one-way-road.
You receive it from the non-Muslims under the pretext of freedom, tolerance & eqality but you are not required to give it back unto them.

Gross generalization.

 

[Alceste]

I think you are seeing this how you want to. It is grossly unfair to label those who oppose the building of this um... "Cultural centre" as being "a bug-eyed pack of knuckle-dragging dominionist bullies". Have you considered the possibility that the ones who are proposing the "cultural centre" are quite possible the "a bug-eyed pack of knuckle-dragging dominionist bullies" who are demanding your lunch money? Congratulations Alceste, you have just insulted 69% of the American Public. Way to go, hon.

1. The Democrats, as always, are simply reacting to the polls. They didn't start the "controversy", the Republicans did. 2. I am only insulting the 68% of Americans who got sucked into this publicity stunt and decided to submit to the ugly side of human nature, blaming a billion Muslims for the actions of a few and attempting to curtail the civil rights of non-christians based on vague "feelings", like paranoia and xenophobia.

 

[Autodidact]

No offence, I'm not an American & I'm not against building the mosque or building it in that place.
But I see you are from Saudi Arabia and I know that in your country building a church/synagogue/temple in whatever place is completely out of the question.
What are you and others from your country doing to change this?
I mean, even if they have the right to build a mosque and to build it in that place: I can't help but noticing how much tolerance Muslims receive in non-Islamic countries - and how little tolerance they provide in places where they are the majority.

Tasha: Are you advocating for the right of non-Muslims to build centers in your country? Or is tolerance only for non-Muslims?

 

[Smoke]

I think you are seeing this how you want to. It is grossly unfair to label those who oppose the building of this um... "Cultural centre" as being "a bug-eyed pack of knuckle-dragging dominionist bullies".

Perhaps "bigots, political opportunists, and the ignorant" would be a better description.

Congratulations Alceste, you have just insulted 69% of the American Public. Way to go, hon.

69% of the American people probably have it coming. We may be the most ignorant country with indoor plumbing. Only 40% of us accept the fact of evolution, and 70% of us can't find Israel or Iran on a map. A Gallup poll eleven years ago found that 20% of us think the sun revolves around the earth.

 

[Smoke]

No offence, I'm not an American & I'm not against building the mosque or building it in that place.
But I see you are from Saudi Arabia and I know that in your country building a church/synagogue/temple in whatever place is completely out of the question.
What are you and others from your country doing to change this?
I mean, even if they have the right to build a mosque and to build it in that place: I can't help but noticing how much tolerance Muslims receive in non-Islamic countries - and how little tolerance they provide in places where they are the majority.

I agree. Islam sucks. Let's not sink to their level.

 

[Smoke]

You should start an education column to raise the intelligence of your fellow Americans.

Somebody should.

 

[Badran]

Problem is: Currently Muslims seem to think that tolerance is a one-way-road.
You receive it from the non-Muslims under the pretext of freedom, tolerance & eqality but you are not required to give it back unto them.

Who said so?

Where did anybody suggest this?

 

[Cypress]

Who said so?

Where did anybody suggest this?

Muslims are Failing to Call for Minority Rights in the Islamic Countries

by Anjum Jaleel

It’s been quite interesting to read and hear all the rhetoric, for and against, on the community center that has been planned for near Ground Zero in New York – the site of an evil act that took place on September 11, 2010, in which over 3,000 innocent were brutally murdered, about 10% of them were Muslims.


Both sides have produced their arguments and some of them have clearly tried to politicize the issue for their own purpose.

But, in the spirit of self-criticism, as a Sufi Muslim who believes in the unity of religions, I would like to emphasize one issue on which the Muslim individuals and organizations do not say much.
And, it’s the issue of religious minority rights in the Muslim countries, especially, since one argument against the building of the community center in NY is that the Muslims do not allow the building of churches, synagogues, and temples in their own countries, especially in Saudi Arabia, so why should we?

Though this argument is also irrational – for America is a light unto other nations, a model for all humanity, and its freedoms and laws should not be dependent on the laws of the repressed, undemocratic, backwards Muslim countries, it is, nevertheless, a point which the Muslims must deeply reflect upon.

The fact of the matter is that Muslims living in the Muslim countries are generally intolerant towards their own minorities, and are even less tolerant towards members of other faiths.
This usually comes from a lack of interactions with the religious minorities, myths and misconceptions about them and a sense of superiority as well as irrational fears.

The idea of a pluralistic Islamic society is alien to most of the so-called “practicing” Muslims living in the Muslim countries.
Luckily, many Western Muslims have now discovered religious plurality in the original Islam and for which they are indebted to the Western influence.

For example, Ahmadi Muslims are a persecuted minority in Pakistan, and Muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia and U.A.E. – all American allies – are not very particular about allowing non-Muslims to build their places of worship in their countries.

At the very least, the individual Muslims and Muslim organizations, as well as the imams in the West, must become more vocal in favor of more religious rights for the minorities in the Islamic countries and even go a step farther and demand that they are allowed to build their places of worship and centers in the Muslims countries, are allowed to practice their religion peacefully and even allowed to promulgate their religions freely.

What is needed is a clear, organized and concerted efforts by the Muslims living in the West to fight for religious equality and freedoms for the non-Muslims and the Muslim minorities, like the Shi’as, the Ahmadis, Christians and Hindus in Pakistan, the Bahai’s, the Jews and Christians in Iran, the Sunnis and the Christians in Iraq, and the Shi’as, the Sufis, Christians, Jews, Hindus and Sikhs in Saudi Arabia and U.A.E.

Without that, I am afraid their demands for religious tolerance and equality here in the West are hypocritical and therefore ineffective.

The very first organization that should adopt my suggestion immediately is the organization that is planning for a community center near Ground Zero.
They need to become more vocal and demand the Muslim countries to allow the non-Muslims to build their places of worship in the Muslim countries.

source

IN TURKEY, THE CHURCH OFFICIALLY DOES NOT EXIST

In a recent full-length interview with ACN, Bishop Padovese said, "We try to be recognized as Church in Turkey but officially we do not exist. We do not have any legal rights. Because we do not exist, we cannot open a seminary, we cannot train priests for the future, we cannot build a Turkish Church." Further, he explained, all Christians in Turkey struggle in the face of "insidious harassment" with attacks in the media, job discrimination, calls to abandon their faith, and severe restrictions on freedom of worship, especially construction of churches.

And Turkey is probably the most liberal of all countries where Muslims are majority.


Religioustolerance.org with information about the situation of religious minorities in countries with Muslim majority.
It does not seem to me that the majority of Muslims has understood that religious tolerance is not only a right but also a duty.

 

[beenie]

Problem is: Currently Muslims seem to think that tolerance is a one-way-road.
You receive it from the non-Muslims under the pretext of freedom, tolerance & eqality but you are not required to give it back unto them.

way to clump all Muslims together.

Gross generalization.

that wouldn't be the first time.

Who said so?

Where did anybody suggest this?

i despise religious intolerance by anyone, and yes, that includes Muslims. i'm sure there are Muslims who are intolerant, but i have yet to meet many.

that article points out intolerance, yes. but to claim that Muslims in general are intolerant is unfair and untrue.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

i stand by my position that although they have the right to build it, that doesn't mean they HAVE to.

Neither does the church across the street from the OKC Bombing memorial have to stay open. What's your point?

Problem words in red.
Jews do not believe that God = Allah. Jews do not worship the entity described in the qur'an, and do not believe that the commandments in the qur'an come from God. In particular, Jews do not worship a God who condemns Jews to hell for worshiping God.

But you do know what the word "Allah" means, right?

Might I point out, reading the statements from families who lost loved ones on 9-11, how utterly insensitive and disrespectful it is to them to have the Republican party use their loss as a prop to advance an anti-Islamic political agenda.

Great point. Reminds me of some of Glenn Beck's histrionics against 9-11 families.

I think you are seeing this how you want to. It is grossly unfair to label those who oppose the building of this um... "Cultural centre" as being "a bug-eyed pack of knuckle-dragging dominionist bullies". Have you considered the possibility that the ones who are proposing the "cultural centre" are quite possible the "a bug-eyed pack of knuckle-dragging dominionist bullies" who are demanding your lunch money? Congratulations Alceste, you have just insulted 69% of the American Public. Way to go, hon.

You *still* believe the conspiracy theory is valid, after all this discussion and evidence?

 

[Kathryn]

68 percent of Americans do NOT believe that the group should be FORBIDDEN to build the mosque 600 feet from Ground Zero on the site where the landing gear from one of the planes landed, and where the ashes of 3000 innocent people covered the ground.

They simply think it's tacky and insensitive.

But it doesn't surprise me that those who oppose this belief resort to exactly what they so self righteously accuse others of doing - distortion of facts (for instance, repeating the LIE that 69% of Americans want the group to be barred from being allowed to build at that location), hysterical hyperbole, and demonization of those who disagree with them.

Classic.

 

[Badran]

source

IN TURKEY, THE CHURCH OFFICIALLY DOES NOT EXIST

And Turkey is probably the most liberal of all countries where Muslims are majority.


Religioustolerance.org with information about the situation of religious minorities in countries with Muslim majority.
It does not seem to me that the majority of Muslims has understood that religious tolerance is not only a right but also a duty.

Thanks for the article, but i meant who suggested so in this thread. Its obvious enough that most muslim countries are not exactly great places today, neither do we claim they are. Of course that doesn't mean thats the way it is and thats it. However the United states is not the same in this regard, and therefore it gets more attention when such incidents happen in countries like that. Nobody as far as i've seen in this thread suggested in anyway that he/she expects this to be a one way thing. My point is that i don't see why you'd think that muslims expect so.

You don't have to misunderstand the concept to have mistreated minorities in your country. I mean just because minorities in some countries are still having problems, doesn't mean the population of that country necessarily does not understand that religious tolerance is a duty.

 

[HonestJoe]

68 percent of Americans do NOT believe that the group should be FORBIDDEN to build the mosque 600 feet from Ground Zero on the site where the landing gear from one of the planes landed, and where the ashes of 3000 innocent people covered the ground.

Do we know if they do or not? I've not seen results from any surveys that asked that specific question (plus I'm still not convinced everyone responding to those surveys are accurately informed nor that the questions are always neutral).

Much of the rhetoric is simply that the centre shouldn't happen. At the moment, the organisation involved choosing not to go ahead is the easiest way for it not to happen but if they don't back down, we don't know how far the various opponents would want it to be taken. I'd be surprised if there weren't at least some who would want it to be actively prevented by some legal means if it came to that.

 

[beenie]

i stand by my position that although they have the right to build it, that doesn't mean they HAVE to.

Neither does the church across the street from the OKC Bombing memorial have to stay open. What's your point?

what? is my post unclear? I was restating my position that I've expressed several times on this forum in response to the post before mine. What's YOUR point?

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

what? is my post unclear? I was restating my position that I've expressed several times on this forum in response to the post before mine. What's YOUR point?

Ahh, I think I misread your post. I thought you meant that just because they have a legal right to build it, that doesn't mean they should.