Mosque at Ground Zero

[HonestJoe]

Nor do I think they should be "forced away" from the site.

I'm not sure how they could take account of the people offended by the idea of a Muslim centre/mosque near Ground Zero in any other way.

I'm simply saying that if their goal is actually to "bring people together," then disregarding why a big chunk of those people are offended is rather counter-productive, as they are not only not bringing people together, but actually pushing them further apart.

You've still not demonstrated that they've simply disregarded anyone. I see no reason to assume they've not taken careful consideration of all the responses to their plan and have decided if and how to proceed based on the balance of those responses.

They may well have thought conceding that a Muslim centre shouldn't be built anywhere near Ground Zero would be more damaging to inter-faith relations than going ahead. And from your position, that would be disregarding all the people who would be offended by that?

 

[EtuMalku]

Perhaps they don't give two? The propagation of the religion is more important than anything else?

I'm not sure how they could take account of the people offended by the idea of a Muslim centre/mosque near Ground Zero in any other way.

You've still not demonstrated that they've simply disregarded anyone. I see no reason to assume they've not taken careful consideration of all the responses to their plan and have decided if and how to proceed based on the balance of those responses.

They may well have thought conceding that a Muslim centre shouldn't be built anywhere near Ground Zero would be more damaging to inter-faith relations than going ahead. And from your position, that would be disregarding all the people who would be offended by that?

 

[Magic Man]

Similarly? are you saying the united states treats muslims like slaves? Do they go out and lynch muslims all over the country just because they're muslim and for no other reason?

Yes. No. No, but we have seen just recently a Muslim get stabbed 7 times just because he was Muslim.

There is nothing similar about this situation AT ALL.

Yes, there is. I pointed it out already. The similarity is that it offended a lot of people when black people wanted to stop being slaves and when they wanted equal rights. Sometimes you have to offend people and get in their face to make a point. Sometimes, you have to not be concerned with whether or not you offend them.

This would not improve relations, and the building they are planning to make right now does not have a very high chance of improving relations.

Yes, it does. I'd say it has a good chance.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons it's worsening. At the end of the day, it might end up improving relations, and it might end up making them worse. At this point, it seems to be rather counter-productive to the goal of bringing people together though. Personally, if I have a specific goal, and whatever I'm doing is having the opposite effect of my goal, I rethink what I'm doing.

But it's not having the opposite effect. It's having one of the intended ones, which is to point out and put an end to people's bigotry towards Muslims. Solving problems like this is usually a messy process.

"It's gonna get worse before it gets better." - Dalton

 

[Magic Man]

Gak. I just wasted five more minutes of my life reading the new posts on this thread. THIS IS GETTING NOWHERE, and we're all redundant at this point.

But - by all means, carry on!

And yet you felt the need to post this? Here's an idea: If it's that bad to you, just stop reading it.

 

[Rakhel]

It was the Governor who proposed a new site not the mayor.

 

[Rakhel]

It is a mosque. It is being used now as a mosque, not a community center.
This place falls under: "If it walks like a duck...."

 

[kai]

look you will just have to face the fact that some Muslims hate you and some Muslims want to build Mosques in your country that's the way it is , so like it or lump it.

 

[Revoltingest]

look you will just have to face the fact that some Muslims hate you and some Muslims want to build Mosques in your country that's the way it is , so like it or lump it.

Someone's building a mosque here? Really? This is the first I've heard of it.
Where are they building it...not some sacred & politically explosive place, I hope?
I've got to tell Kathryn ASAP! (Mosques are her special interest.)

 

[kai]

Someone's building a mosque here? Really? This is the first I've heard of it.
Where are they building it...not some sacred & politically explosive place, I hope?
I've got to tell Kathryn ASAP! (Mosques are her special interest.)

yep they are! and one day we can all have one!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is a mosque. It is being used now as a mosque, not a community center.

It's really not much different than a YMCA. Maybe even one day it too will have a very gay band sign a song about it.

 

[Sufi]

[youtube]iAM-kZkNQZk[/youtube]
YouTube - Ground Zero Mosque Organizer Speaks Out

 

[logician]

I'm jumping on the bandwagon here. There is a Christian church within a mile of my property, as an atheist , I find this offensive. I'm going to petition to have them move the church at least 3 miles away!

 

[jonman122]

Yes. No. No, but we have seen just recently a Muslim get stabbed 7 times just because he was Muslim.

How about the muslims who slaughtered Theo van Gogh just because he made a video critical of islam? he was stabbed quite a few more than 7 times. How about we mention all the people that muslims have slain? The numbers at that point are incredibly one sided. That was never a problem for the black people.

Yes, there is. I pointed it out already. The similarity is that it offended a lot of people when black people wanted to stop being slaves and when they wanted equal rights. Sometimes you have to offend people and get in their face to make a point. Sometimes, you have to not be concerned with whether or not you offend them.

Yes, it does. I'd say it has a good chance.

not nearly as many people were offended by black people getting equal rights as how many were offended by women getting rights, so i see this argument as moot. The muslims have the right to build the building, they have every right that americans have, and i have many better examples of people getting offended by things. Slavery is not similar to building a structure of worship to only your particular god (in this case, this will be a place of muslim worship, and people can say however much they want that it is not a mosque but seriously, whats so bad about mosques? are people that offended by the idea of mosques that the argument they have is that is isnt a mosque?) Either way, there are many better ways to improve relations with people in the united states. People would even be happy if they built the site a few blocks further away, so what is the problem with that?

i've also seen people who think they should get right in someones face and offend them, and instead of the person backing down they beat the person to the edge of consciousness. I don't want to see something like that happen to the people building the mosque, or for the mosque to be attacked by american terrorists just because it is too close to the ground zero attacks. I sincerely doubt that the construction will go about unhindered.

The numbers just don't coincide with what you "say" has a good chance

 

[Magic Man]

How about the muslims who slaughtered Theo van Gogh just because he made a video critical of islam? he was stabbed quite a few more than 7 times. How about we mention all the people that muslims have slain? The numbers at that point are incredibly one sided.

How about them? What point are you making? Are you saying it's OK to treat Muslims this way because some other Muslims treated others just as bad?

not nearly as many people were offended by black people getting equal rights as how many were offended by women getting rights, so i see this argument as moot.

Assuming that is even true, what's the point? The argument isn't moot because more people were offended at one thing than another.

The muslims have the right to build the building, they have every right that americans have, and i have many better examples of people getting offended by things. Slavery is not similar to building a structure of worship to only your particular god (in this case, this will be a place of muslim worship, and people can say however much they want that it is not a mosque but seriously, whats so bad about mosques? are people that offended by the idea of mosques that the argument they have is that is isnt a mosque?) Either way, there are many better ways to improve relations with people in the united states. People would even be happy if they built the site a few blocks further away, so what is the problem with that?

You're getting yourself confused. The similarity is in the offending of people. Many times fighting bigotry offends people. Right now people fighting for gay rights offend a lot of people. That doesn't mean they should stop fighting. It means the people they are offending should reconsider their views. Similarly (there's that word again) the builders of this center should keep working towards ending bigotry towards Muslims, even if (or maybe because) it offends some people.

i've also seen people who think they should get right in someones face and offend them, and instead of the person backing down they beat the person to the edge of consciousness. I don't want to see something like that happen to the people building the mosque, or for the mosque to be attacked by american terrorists just because it is too close to the ground zero attacks. I sincerely doubt that the construction will go about unhindered.

I don't want to see anyone get hurt either, but threat of violence isn't a good reason to not build. Hopefully they have the courage to continue their work despite the possibility of violence.

The numbers just don't coincide with what you "say" has a good chance

What numbers would that be?

 

[jonman122]

What numbers would that be?

the 68% of americans that disagree with the building being built? that's a vast majority.

 

[jonman122]

You're getting yourself confused. The similarity is in the offending of people. Many times fighting bigotry offends people. Right now people fighting for gay rights offend a lot of people. That doesn't mean they should stop fighting. It means the people they are offending should reconsider their views. Similarly (there's that word again) the builders of this center should keep working towards ending bigotry towards Muslims, even if (or maybe because) it offends some people.

Everythings that you've brought up has to do with rights. Sure people get offended by people fighting for gay rights, and sure people got offended for people fighting for rights for blacks, but how is building a structure like this in any way good for islam? How is having the entire united states be even more upset over what has occured in any way productive? They aren't fighting for rights here, they aren't even fighting for anything useful in any way. If they just need the center because the other mosque down the road is full, then why not move the mosque down the street to appease the rabble? Even the roman empire and the greeks saw the error in doing things that people didnt like, even if the reasons for them not liking it were flawed. Having your entire country become disillusioned for absolutely no reason is not a very good thing to do.

 

[logician]

Everythings that you've brought up has to do with rights. Sure people get offended by people fighting for gay rights, and sure people got offended for people fighting for rights for blacks, but how is building a structure like this in any way good for islam? How is having the entire united states be even more upset over what has occured in any way productive? They aren't fighting for rights here, they aren't even fighting for anything useful in any way. If they just need the center because the other mosque down the road is full, then why not move the mosque down the street to appease the rabble? Even the roman empire and the greeks saw the error in doing things that people didnt like, even if the reasons for them not liking it were flawed. Having your entire country become disillusioned for absolutely no reason is not a very good thing to do.

Shhh, don't tell anyone, it's all media hype pushed by the RW who are trying to distract from actual important issues in this country, like the lack of healthcare insurance and decent healthcare for million, and the lack of ability to get a job for millions.

 

[Magic Man]

the 68% of americans that disagree with the building being built? that's a vast majority.

But how does that "not coincide with what I say has a good chance"? Just because so many are opposed to it now doesn't mean they won't learn to understand and respect the idea once they see it in action. Just because 68% oppose the building doesn't mean there is a good chance of violence. The whole idea of the building is to communicate with those 68%.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

But how does that "not coincide with what I say has a good chance"? Just because so many are opposed to it now doesn't mean they won't learn to understand and respect the idea once they see it in action. Just because 68% oppose the building doesn't mean there is a good chance of violence. The whole idea of the building is to communicate with those 68%.

They're doing a bang-up job so far.