Mosque at Ground Zero

[Magic Man]

Everythings that you've brought up has to do with rights. Sure people get offended by people fighting for gay rights, and sure people got offended for people fighting for rights for blacks, but how is building a structure like this in any way good for islam?

How does that question follow from those statements? Islam doesn't benefit; Muslims do.

How is having the entire united states be even more upset over what has occured in any way productive?

The same way having the majority of the country upset over civil rights or gay rights helps.

They aren't fighting for rights here, they aren't even fighting for anything useful in any way.

So, understanding and an end to bigotry are not useful? No, they're not fighting for rights. You're getting too caught up with trying to find ways to make the analogies not work. They're fighting for acceptance, which is what black people fought for, along with equal rights.

If they just need the center because the other mosque down the road is full, then why not move the mosque down the street to appease the rabble? Even the roman empire and the greeks saw the error in doing things that people didnt like, even if the reasons for them not liking it were flawed. Having your entire country become disillusioned for absolutely no reason is not a very good thing to do.

Why appease the rabble? Let's try this again:

Should black people have not tried for equal right? Should women not have tried for equal rights? I mean, their struggles offended most of the country. There is a time for compromising and going with the flow, but this isn't it. And they aren't doing it for no reason. They're doing it because they want acceptance and an end to bigotry and distrust.

 

[Magic Man]

They're doing a bang-up job so far.

Yup, they're doing pretty well. I'm glad you agree. Now all we need is for the retards like Fox News to stop with their nonsense.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Yup, they're doing pretty well. I'm glad you agree. Now all we need is for the retards like Fox News to stop with their nonsense.

If telling me I agree with you is what it takes to make you feel better, feel free.

 

[Autodidact]

And the only true Scotsman is a burly, red-headed, kilt-wearing, haggis-eating, caber-tossing bagpiper.

who does NOT put sugar on his porridge.

 

[Magic Man]

If telling me I agree with you is what it takes to make you feel better, feel free.

Well, you did agree, albeit sarcastically. I was just pointing out that they are doing a good job (not sarcastically). The problem is people like Fox News.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Well, you did agree, albeit sarcastically. I was just pointing out that they are doing a good job (not sarcastically). The problem is people like Fox News.

I don't know what the problem is, but I'm sure it's much more varied and complex than a single cable news channel.

 

[Rakhel]

Oh but fox news is evil incarnate.

 

[beenie]

:banghead3

that's all.

 

[Magic Man]

I don't know what the problem is, but I'm sure it's much more varied and complex than a single cable news channel.

Indeed. That's why I said "people like Fox News". I know what the problem is, and the problem is fear- and hate-mongering, and sources like Fox News do a very good job of it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Indeed. That's why I said "people like Fox News". I know what the problem is, and the problem is fear- and hate-mongering, and sources like Fox News do a very good job of it.

I suspect the problem is a bit more complex than that, but regardless, if you have a goal, such as bringing people together, you need to take all variables into account in order to ensure that what you're doing is having the desired effect. If, at this stage, it already isn't working, then you probably need to rethink your process. Assuming, of course, that one's goal is to bring people together.

 

[Alceste]

I'm jumping on the bandwagon here. There is a Christian church within a mile of my property, as an atheist , I find this offensive. I'm going to petition to have them move the church at least 3 miles away!

And I am a pagan with wiccan inclinations, as are many of the folks who live around here. I am going to get everyone together to request that the three Christian churches here be moved outside of town. It's just too soon.

 

[Revoltingest]

Indeed. That's why I said "people like Fox News". I know what the problem is, and the problem is fear- and hate-mongering, and sources like Fox News do a very good job of it.

You ain't so bad at it yourself, kiddo!

 

[Alceste]

I suspect the problem is a bit more complex than that, but regardless, if you have a goal, such as bringing people together, you need to take all variables into account in order to ensure that what you're doing is having the desired effect. If, at this stage, it already isn't working, then you probably need to rethink your process. Assuming, of course, that one's goal is to bring people together.

There's no way the Sufi builders of an interfaith community outreach centre blocks away from where the World Trade Centre once stood could have prophesied that their project would be universally billed as a "mosque at ground zero" in a country where the news media regards itself as somewhat fact-based and objective. And if you feel they SHOULD have known, what does it say about the sorry state of affairs in the US media? Is that their fault too?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

There's no way the Sufi builders of an interfaith community outreach centre blocks away from where the World Trade Centre once stood could have prophesied that their project would be universally billed as a "mosque at ground zero" in a country where the news media regards itself as somewhat fact-based and objective. And if you feel they SHOULD have known, what does it say about the sorry state of affairs in the US media? Is that their fault too?

I have no idea what kind of research they did, or what information was available, regarding possible public opinion regarding their project. All that I'm saying, and the only thing I've been saying all along, is that if your goal is, in fact, to bring people together, and at this early stage, what you're doing is having the opposite effect, then it makes sense to reassess the situation to see if there are any ways to adjust what you're doing, in order to meet your goals.

 

[YmirGF]

I have no idea what kind of research they did, or what information was available, regarding possible public opinion regarding their project. All that I'm saying, and the only thing I've been saying all along, is that if your goal is, in fact, to bring people together, and at this early stage, what you're doing is having the opposite effect, then it makes sense to reassess the situation to see if there are any ways to adjust what you're doing, in order to meet your goals.

How dare you bring pragmatic thought into this discussion. Have you no shame?

 

[beenie]

I have no idea what kind of research they did, or what information was available, regarding possible public opinion regarding their project. All that I'm saying, and the only thing I've been saying all along, is that if your goal is, in fact, to bring people together, and at this early stage, what you're doing is having the opposite effect, then it makes sense to reassess the situation to see if there are any ways to adjust what you're doing, in order to meet your goals.

i tend to agree. although i happen to (somewhat, not entirely) disagree with the opposers, you can't force people to agree with your intentions. perhaps a meeting could be had so both sides and air their opinions (hopefully civilly) and a compromise can be reached.

 

[beenie]

I have no idea what kind of research they did, or what information was available, regarding possible public opinion regarding their project. All that I'm saying, and the only thing I've been saying all along, is that if your goal is, in fact, to bring people together, and at this early stage, what you're doing is having the opposite effect, then it makes sense to reassess the situation to see if there are any ways to adjust what you're doing, in order to meet your goals.

i tend to agree. although i happen to disagree with the opposers, you can't force people to agree with your intentions. perhaps a meeting could be had so both sides and air their opinions (hopefully civilly) and a compromise can be reached.

heck, both sides might learn a thing or two.

 

[Alceste]

I have no idea what kind of research they did, or what information was available, regarding possible public opinion regarding their project. All that I'm saying, and the only thing I've been saying all along, is that if your goal is, in fact, to bring people together, and at this early stage, what you're doing is having the opposite effect, then it makes sense to reassess the situation to see if there are any ways to adjust what you're doing, in order to meet your goals.

Do you think this reassessment ought to occur after the property has been purchased, a design submitted, a building proposal almost unanimously accepted by city hall, and considerable expenses incurred, or before?

I think you must not have built anything in a major city before, or known anyone who has. I asked earlier whether any of the protestors are willing to reimburse the project for the potentially immense cost of relocating. So far no takers. How much are you willing to chip in?

 

[Revoltingest]

Do you think this reassessment ought to occur after the property has been purchased, a design submitted, a building proposal almost unanimously accepted by city hall, and considerable expenses incurred, or before?

I think you must not have built anything in a major city before, or known anyone who has. I asked earlier whether any of the protestors are willing to reimburse the project for the potentially immense cost of relocating. So far no takers. How much are you willing to chip in?

Cities can be difficult places to build. You can buy the property, get the right zoning & make plans which meet code. Then, government can shoot
it down for any number of reasons. It's crap shoot. There are some locales where I don't do developmental business anymore. One project near me
(not mine) took the business 30 years to construct, but that one is unusually long. One which I'm in has lasted well over a decade before we could
break ground, a pretty costly affair. The mosque's problems just sound like business as usual in a political environment.

 

[Alceste]

i tend to agree. although i happen to (somewhat, not entirely) disagree with the opposers, you can't force people to agree with your intentions. perhaps a meeting could be had so both sides and air their opinions (hopefully civilly) and a compromise can be reached.

There were meetings and discussions. There alway are. Building permits are generally not issued without a period for public input. Unfortunately these seem to have occurred before Rupert Murdoch decided to spin the decision to benefit the Republicans. Seems the knuckle draggers are not very good at paying attention to what is going on in their community in a timely fashion, preferring to simply do whatever Glenn Beck advises.