Mosque at Ground Zero

[Kathryn]

There's a hell of a difference between that and effectively letting your enemy determine what you do, as some in this thread seem bent on doing.

Ahh, well, that's not my position.

The title of this thread makes me tired every time I see it.

THE MOSQUE WILL NOT BE AT GROUND ZERO.
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[jmvizanko]

The people and families who oppose a mosque on the grounds that they were traumatized by 9/11 are mistaking Muslims for terrorists who happen to be Muslims.

I hope you arent trying to suggest that these terrorists were not terrorists BECAUSE they were Muslims.

Not all terrorists are Muslims and not all Muslims are terrorists. But one doesnt have to complete the Koran to see why there are as many Muslim terrorists as there are, and why there are hundreds of millions of Muslims that aren't directly terrorists, yet still support their violently extremist brethren.

 

[Badran]

I hope you arent trying to suggest that these terrorists were not terrorists BECAUSE they were Muslims.

I don't know why you would think thats what he's saying. He said that those terrorists happened to be muslims, as in just because those terrorists were muslims, doesn't mean all or most muslims are so, or that there should be any ill-feelings towards muslims because of what those terrorists who happened to be muslims did.

Not all terrorists are Muslims and not all Muslims are terrorists.

Thanks.

But one doesnt have to complete the Koran to see why there are as many Muslim terrorists as there are, and why there are hundreds of millions of Muslims that aren't directly terrorists, yet still support their violently extremist brethren.

Although this is irrelevant, and its merely a personal impression, but if you studied the Quran, you'd realize that what the terrorists of 9/11 did, contradicts with its teachings.

 

[jmvizanko]

He said that those terrorists happened to be muslims, as in just because those terrorists were muslims, doesn't mean all or most muslims are so, or that there should be any ill-feelings towards muslims because of what those terrorists who happened to be muslims did.

I wasnt implying that yall are terrorists. Its just that his wording seemed to completely separate these terrorists from the Islamic source of their terrorism. Once again, I dont think all or most Muslims are violent extremists. But..

Although this is irrelevant, and its merely a personal impression, but if you studied the Quran, you'd realize that what the terrorists of 9/11 did, contradicts with its teachings.

If that is the case, then why are there hundreds of millions of Muslims that disagree with you? I think it really boils down to how you interpret the relevant passages, and the Koran is another "divine" ancient text that, like usual, is ambiguous and massively open to interpretation.

 

[beenie]

I smell something a bit fishy. I have absolutely no objection to anyone building a place of worship anywhere they can and want to but, given the unusual circumstances it seems the whole idea smacks of ulterior motives. On one hand it demonstrates our benevolence but to some it demonstrates our tail being between our legs.

These people did not have to choose this site but it is going to be a point that the extremist faction of Islam will snicker at for a long time as well as using it as a point to teach their children of America’s perceived weakness. Also, a lot of other people will find it hard to believe that Americans would allow such and then proceed to formulate opinions that reflect that surprise.

I believe that America’s enemies will be dancing on our national pride for a long time because of it. There is also the consideration that this house of worship may become a target for our own home grown extremists who might see it as an opportunity to exact an eye for an eye regardless of the fact that these are not even the same group of people that perpetrated 9/11 in the first place. I think this is a potential can of worms we could all do without.

It's always interesting when people let their enemies determine what they do.

who exactly is our "enemy"? it sounds like you are calling Muslims the enemy.

I wasnt implying that yall are terrorists. Its just that his wording seemed to completely separate these terrorists from the Islamic source of their terrorism. Once again, I dont think all or most Muslims are violent extremists. But..




If that is the case, then why are there hundreds of millions of Muslims that disagree with you? I think it really boils down to how you interpret the relevant passages, and the Koran is another "divine" ancient text that, like usual, is ambiguous and massively open to interpretation.

hundreds of millions of Muslims AGREE with the actions of 9/11? interesting, because i have yet to find ONE, and i've been in lots of places. the select few are the loudest; isn't that always the case?

 

[Badran]

I wasnt implying that yall are terrorists.

I know, you stated that directly.

Its just that his wording seemed to completely separate these terrorists from the Islamic source of their terrorism. Once again, I dont think all or most Muslims are violent extremists. But..

He was merely pointing out what should be understood by common sense, and that is, terrorists are everywhere, in every religion or group. And its always been that way, and they have always, and still are doing horrible stuff. So, just because it happened that this one (9/11) were carried out by muslims, doesn't mean that for some unexplainable reason all muslims should share the blame. And if you believe they shouldn't share the blame, then there is simply no reason to oppose or even consider the building of this mosque two blocks away from this location as a bad thing, especially when those who want to build it have clarified their opposition to what happened in 9/11, and their desire to spread positive things through this mosque or center.

If that is the case, then why are there hundreds of millions of Muslims that disagree with you? I think it really boils down to how you interpret the relevant passages, and the Koran is another "divine" ancient text that, like usual, is ambiguous and massively open to interpretation.

Hundreds of millions is a little of an exaggeration don't you think? Everybody knows that terrorists are a minority, and if you're including the ones who might not resent these things, but wouldn't do it themselves, its still a little presumptuous to say hundreds of millions, which is a pretty wide range.

As to why do those disagree with me, there is a wide set of possibilities as to why they hold their positions, they do not necessarily share the same reasons, let alone a necessarily religious one. This is completely off topic, but my point is there is no reason to jump to conclusions upon muslims or the Quran.

 

[Tristesse]

Would this even be a topic of discussion if it were a church being built in the same location? I personally think, that if it's ok to build a church in that location then you have to include all religious facilities. Otherwise the government is involved in deciding what religions can and can't build places of worship. And that would be in violation of freedom of religion.

 

[Troublemane]

Basically, the oil leak is over and congress is on vacation, so....there just aint much else going on, i think.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Here is the statement released by Joseph Nassralla - one of the two Egyptians who were involved in the incident above.

"There was a minor incident at the rally that was blown out of proportion, when my partner , Mr. Karam El Masry, and I were distributing material with some Quran verses and we were also speaking Arabic thus we were mistaken by a few people in the huge crowd, for being Muslims infiltrators trying to disrupt the event.

This misunderstanding was clarified when we explained who we were and that we are there to support the crowd against the building of the mosque. I was a little frustrated initially for being identified as a Muslim infiltrator, but was glad that the issue was resolved later.

I just find it telling that there was an incident at all. No matter how blown out of proportion the media made it....

 

[jmvizanko]

He was merely pointing out what should be understood by common sense, and that is, terrorists are everywhere, in every religion or group.

Hundreds of millions is a little of an exaggeration don't you think? Everybody knows that terrorists are a minority, and if you're including the ones who might not resent these things, but wouldn't do it themselves, its still a little presumptuous to say hundreds of millions, which is a pretty wide range.

As to why do those disagree with me, there is a wide set of possibilities as to why they hold their positions, they do not necessarily share the same reasons, let alone a necessarily religious one. This is completely off topic, but my point is there is no reason to jump to conclusions upon muslims or the Quran.

Actually there are plenty of groups and religions with no terrorists. Yet most terrorists in the world are Muslims. And with most studies putting the percentage of Muslims that support violence in defense of Islam at about 10%, yeah, we are talking hundreds of millions.

I'm not jumping to conclusions about all Muslims, but these numbers mean something you seem to be unwilling to recognize.

 

[Evandr]

And if their children have any intelligence, they will see it not as a weakness, but a beautiful strength of America: to be that dedicated to freedom.

You are right but unfortunately the intelligence of children is influenced by the parents and the society that they are reared in. If it were not so you would not find children wanting to grow up to be suicide bombers. We cannot ignore that the world is rife with those who seek to sew the seeds of hate and violence and those who are so weak minded that they fall in line with them.

I just think that 9/11 and the effect of Islamic terrorist activity is too fresh in our minds. It is true that many, including myself, would want to see the positive aspect of the whole idea but I also think it foolish to ignore the whole question of the wisdom vs the potential for ill involved.

I honestly think that America should rally behind our Islamic citizens and show support but lets ALL be wise about it including those proposing the idea, remember that they too have responsibilities to consider. This whole thing has an "in your face" aspect that many could end up regretting because of the potential, sad as it is, to inflame the emotions of those less benevolent and prone to stirring up discord and violence not to mention pouring salt into wounds that have not yet healed creating the potential that those wounds will take much longer to stop having a negative effect.

Only a fool focuses on the "here-me-now" and ignores the potential ramifications of their actions. No man is an island nor is any group. I remember all too well the flower children of the 60's who thought they could solve all the world's ills by passing out flowers and ignoring the realities that shaped the world in which they live.

 

[jmvizanko]

And if you believe they shouldn't share the blame, then there is simply no reason to oppose or even consider the building of this mosque two blocks away from this location as a bad thing

I disagree. I don't think they should share the blame, but that doesn't mean this isn't in bad taste.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

The hypocrisy of conservative Americans never ceases to amaze me.

First of all, it's not strictly a mosque, and it's not going to be at Ground Zero. Park51, as it is correctly called, will be not just a place of worship but a community center. And you can't even see Ground Zero from the building; it's a couple blocks away, with two large sets of buildings in between them. Check it out for yourself (note: Park51's marker should be a couple buildings to the east):

Second, if Park51 really was going to be some kind of planning center for terrorist activities, then two blocks away from Ground Zero is the last place in the world they would want to build. Instead, they'd place it out in the middle of nowhere, or much more likely, just use an existing structure out in the middle of nowhere, to make their plans.

Third--and this represents the epitome of the hypocrisy--if this were to be a Christian center, we wouldn't have heard a word about it. The Oklahoma City bombing, conducted by a man who was a follower of the Christian Identity Movement, has a memorial site with a church right across the street from the memorial. Built well before the bombing, absolutely nobody is calling for Oklahoma City to tear down the church. So why can't we permit a Muslim center right down the street from Ground Zero? Might it not stand to reason that Park51 and the World Trade Center attacks are connected to Islam in name only, just as the church across from the Oklahoma City bombing and the Christian Identity Movement might be connected by virtue of their Christianity in name only? And we haven't even gotten to America's "eyes for an eye" response, in the form of two wars against two countries that are primarily Muslim, and all the lovely acts we have committed during that time.

To the people who oppose Park51: Get over it, grow a pair, and let the damn Muslim center be built.

 

[Badran]

Actually there are plenty of groups and religions with no terrorists.

Note that i'm saying through history as well, perhaps there are some groups and/or religions like that, but that is not the case with the majority. And i would be interested to know which groups or religions are you referring to.

Yet most terrorists in the world are Muslims.

Propaganda against extreme muslims is fascinating, and also this suggestion of yours is based on what you would label as terrorism. Perhaps this article would be of interest to you:Study: Threat of Muslim-American terrorism in U.S. exaggerated - CNN.com

And lastly if we suppose that this is actually the case, its still doesn't mean that this would be blamed on the religion, there are many reasons for why there is a rise in the number of extremists, and if your supposed notion is actually true, this would be the a major factor contributing into why those muslims are acting this way.

And with most studies putting the percentage of Muslims that support violence in defense of Islam at about 10%, yeah, we are talking hundreds of millions.

First, how many Muslims are there in the world?

Second, what do you mean by support violence in defense of Islam?

Third, who are you referring to that exist in hundreds of millions, extremists, or people who do not object to extremism but do not participate in it as well?

these numbers mean something you seem to be unwilling to recognize.

They mean something alright, just not what you're proposing.

I disagree. I don't think they should share the blame, but that doesn't mean this isn't in bad taste.

If there is nothing to blame on muslims, which would mean you don't have ill-feelings towards muslims, how can it be in bad taste?

 

[jmvizanko]

And i would be interested to know which groups or religions are you referring to.

How about the Jains or the National Science Foundation just to name the first 2 that come to mind? Are you seriously suggesting that every group and religion creates people that think they have the right to kill those that disagree with it???

First, how many Muslims are there in the world?

Second, what do you mean by support violence in defense of Islam?

Third, who are you referring to that exist in hundreds of millions, extremists, or people who do not object to extremism but do not participate in it as well?

1. ~1.5 billion

2. What do you mean by what do I mean?

3. Both.

They mean something alright, just not what you're proposing

They mean that there is a component to Islam that creates terrorists. You can make the argument straight from the Koran that Muslims are supposed to kill the infidel. You have not interpreted it that way, but a good number of Muslims do.

 

[Kathryn]

To the people who oppose Park51: Get over it, grow a pair, and let the damn Muslim center be built.

I agree with a lot of your post, starting with that comment, and I disagree with a few points:

The hypocrisy of conservative Americans never ceases to amaze me.

Let's clarify a few concepts and terms:

First of all, when you insist on lumping all conservatives into one heap, you're doing the exact same thing that people who lump all Muslims into one heap are doing.

Many conservatives are not opposed to the mosque/community center being built at that location, because they uphold the rights of freedom of religion.

Many people who oppose the building of the mosque/community center are NOT conservatives, but are friends, coworkers, and family members of those who were killed in the terrorist attacks by radical Muslims on 9/11.

First of all, it's not strictly a mosque, and it's not going to be at Ground Zero. Park51, as it is correctly called, will be not just a place of worship but a community center. And you can't even see Ground Zero from the building; it's a couple blocks away, with two large sets of buildings in between them.

Right on. Thanks for reiterating what many on this thread have been saying, and thanks for putting up the map, which should clarify (to anyone who will take the time to look at this objectively) that the proposed building will not even be VISIBLE from Ground Zero.

If I hear one more political pundit repeat the LYING phrase "Mosque at Ground Zero" I think I will throw my coffee cup at the TV. Well, maybe not...but I'll feel like it.

Third--and this represents the epitome of the hypocrisy--if this were to be a Christian center, we wouldn't have heard a word about it.

Christians didn't pilot commercial airplanes filled to the brim with innocent people into two of the largest structures in the US, killing thousands. There are churches, mosques, synagogues, and all other sorts of religious buildings by the thousands throughout NYC and they've been built without a murmur of protest - and will continue to be built.

What makes this so inflammatory (though I agree with the decision to allow the center to be built) is the very fact that it's a new Muslim center with such close proximity to that site.

Oh - and the fact that the whole situation can be used and manipulated by a large number of special interest and political groups to further their own individual agendas. Don't leave that part out!

The Oklahoma City bombing, conducted by a man who was a follower of the Christian Identity Movement, has a memorial site with a church right across the street from the memorial. Built well before the bombing, absolutely nobody is calling for Oklahoma City to tear down the church.

That's right - The First United Methodist Church was there WELL BEFORE THE BOMBING and in fact sustained significant damage to it's structure during the bombing. Don't know if you've been to the church, but I have. It has the most beautiful open air chapel memorializing the victims


This coincides beautifully with the heart rending memorial across the street erected by St Joseph's Catholic Church:

And Jesus Wept: On a corner adjacent to the memorial is a sculpture of Jesus weeping erected by St. Joseph's Catholic Church. St. Joseph's, one of the first brick and mortar churches in the city, was almost completely destroyed by the blast. The statue is not part of the memorial itself but is popular with visitors nonetheless.

Oklahoma City National Memorial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Both these churches were devastated by the bombing, and as I said, they already owned the land and buildings, and were victimized by the bombing.

I can ASSURE you that if they had come out in support of the Christian Identity Movement, there would have been an uproar. Also, if it was found that they had donors who supported the Christian Identity Movement, or had they said "Well, we were all accessories to this bombing," there would have been as much public backlash on them as there has been on this current project and imam.

I wonder - will the Islamic Center build a large, beautiful memorial on it's grounds/facility that will memorialize the American victims of 9/11?

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

Lets not forget that 60 innocent Muslim Americans also died in those attacks.

 

[Kathryn]

Lets not forget that 60 innocent Muslim Americans also died in those attacks.

That's right - Muslim AMERICANS.

I am really curious to know if there is going to be any sort of memorial for the American victims of 9/11 at this Islamic Cultural Center. Not that there has to be - but I'm still curious.

 

[Evandr]

Let’s remember something, even Jesus Christ tailored His teaching methods and places so as to stir up as little discord as possible, keeping with the traditions and mental attitudes of the people. He understood, as should we, that a person not willing to listen cannot learn what you have to teach. If one really looks at the history of the people surrounding Jesus Christ it is amazing, nothing short of a miracle, that He was able to do as much as He did before they finally crucified Him.
Building this mosque so near to ground zero is a huge distraction from our responsibility to gently steer Americans in the right direction. This whole issue has the potential to stay at the forefront of our discussions while the real important discussions go unheard, namely, how can we as Americans rally together to rise above and overcome what happened. Healing takes time and, although there are many, including some on this forum, who can act and feel as Christ would have us, in this case I believe it may take more than a generation before this incident can be truly laid to rest and a mosque near ground zero can be seen as a place of healing and not a reminder of tragedy.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The fact remains that this IS upsetting many of the families that lost loved ones. It comes across as a very insensitive thing to be doing. I don't understand what is so difficult to understand about this simple human feeling?

I don't understand how it's so difficult to realize they are holding onto a very petty grudge, and are showing irrational, unfounded, and unwarranted hatred towards a group that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. It would be like me egging a local Baptist church that is in no way affiliated with Fred Phelps because his group protested Dio's funeral. That church had absolutely nothing to do with it, but they are getting backlash because some other Baptist group decided to picket a soldier's funeral.