Mosque at Ground Zero

[Shadow Wolf]

Oh, yes we would. We'd be hearing about how wonderful it was, how faith, peace, and healing rise from the ashes of 9/11. You greatly underestimate the hypocrisy.

That is, assuming they offered messages of how those who followed the false god of Allah hurt America, and through the power of Yahweh/Jehovah America would triumph over the followers of an idol God.
But if that was the case, then we would just be talking about how they are oblivious to the fact the their god and Allah are the exact same god.

 

[blackout]

How about a GREAT BIG Church of Satan?!

Funded by all those $200 memberships.


hahahaha!! Sorry.

gawd that made me laugh.

 

[EtuMalku]

LOL, I've refraining from going there! But someone had to say it!:nightcraw:

How about a GREAT BIG Church of Satan?!

Funded by all those $200 memberships.


hahahaha!! Sorry.

gawd that made me laugh.

 

[jmvizanko]

And the reason why most terrorists are religionists can be very easily explained by the very simple fact that the majority of people in the world are religionists.

Completely wrong. Yes there are violent crazies out there, but it takes an idea, such as a religion, to turn 10% of a society into people that think terrorism is a good idea.

And the supposed notion that Islam has the highest number of terrorists today can be very easily also explained when you look at other common factors that muslim societies and countries are under today.

What, like being poor? There are plenty of poor people in the world. The thing you seem to be completely in denial of, as indicated by:

Two, that we shouldn't blame the religion, thats all.

is that your holy book is full of commands to kill everyone that doesn't believe it. The quotes that have recently been added to this thread unarguably attest to this. You don't have any reason to ignore these passage other than they are insane to believe and you seem to be fairly rational, so your cherry picking out the good from the Koran, and ignoring the heinously evil, is understandable.

 

[Badran]

Completely wrong. Yes there are violent crazies out there, but it takes an idea, such as a religion, to turn 10% of a society into people that think terrorism is a good idea.

I don't think we're following each other. Of course religion serves as a motive sometimes, my point is not always, and that its not necessary that what got them motivated was a correct understanding of what their religion says.

What, like being poor?

Poverty, terrible education, living in an area where negative cultural ideas and habits are wide spread, being at war with stronger countries and having no military power to defend you or your brothers all contribute, as well with sometimes the religious motivations, which i'm not denying it exists.

is that your holy book is full of commands to kill everyone that doesn't believe it.

There is not one single verse in the Quran that says so.

The quotes that have recently been added to this thread unarguably attest to this. You don't have any reason to ignore these passage other than they are insane to believe and you seem to be fairly rational, so your cherry picking out the good from the Koran, and ignoring the heinously evil, is understandable.

You missed my response to it then. I do not ignore any passages, i simply understand what these verses were addressed to, and i understand that there are many other verses that instruct us not to be the aggressors, to respect and tolerate and protect other people who chose a different path.

 

[Autodidact]

Poverty, terrible education, living in an area where negative cultural ideas and habits are wide spread, being at war with stronger countries and having no military power to defend you or your brothers all contribute, as well with sometimes the religious motivations, which i'm not denying it exists.

1. These things are themselves caused by Islam.
2. The one thing they all have in common is Islam.

There is not one single verse in the Quran that says so.

I've been wanting to start a thread about this; I think I will.

 

[jmvizanko]

I don't think we're following each other.

Definitely.

Of course religion serves as a motive sometimes, my point is not always, and that its not necessary that what got them motivated was a correct understanding of what their religion says.

A bit of the ol True Scottsman fallacy? As in, they aren't really Muslims if they are terrorists? Try telling them they don't have their interpretation correct once. They'd probably be just as interested in killing you for heresy.

There is not one single verse in the Quran that says so.

Care to explain, then, why all of the verses mentioned do actually say so?

You missed my response to it then. I do not ignore any passages, i simply understand what these verses were addressed to, and i understand that there are many other verses that instruct us not to be the aggressors, to respect and tolerate and protect other people who chose a different path.

I don't doubt that the book contradicts itself. I still would love to see why you think as clearly worded statements as the verses quoted don't mean what the rest of us, and all the extremist Muslims, take them to mean, because you didn't really do that. You just said "they don't."

 

[Kathryn]

From the Qu'ran (I have included up to three translations with some verses):

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
005.034
YUSUFALI: Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


009.029YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

009.052
YUSUFALI: Say: "Can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of two glorious things- (Martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you."

009.123
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

048.017YUSUFALI: No blame is there on the blind, nor is there blame on the lame, nor on one ill (if he joins not the war): But he that obeys Allah and his Messenger,- (Allah) will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; and he who turns back, (Allah) will punish him with a grievous Penalty.

066.009
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.

003.028YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

003.056
YUSUFALI: "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
PICKTHAL: As for those who disbelieve I shall chastise them with a heavy chastisement in the world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers.

No assimilation or friendships with unbelievers:

003.118
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.

003.151
YUSUFALI: Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!
PICKTHAL: We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers.
SHAKIR: We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

005.012YUSUFALI: Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."
005.013YUSUFALI: But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard;

005.014YUSUFALI: From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment.

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

005.064YUSUFALI: The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.

There's a lot more, but I'm sort of worn out from reading all this for now.

Quran in English... English Koran

 

[budha3]

At first I really wasn't concerned about a Mosque being built two blocks away from ground zero. But what has bothered me was I heard a former terrorist on the radio who was adamant that they should not be trusted. Now I really do not know what to think

 

[Badran]

A bit of the ol True Scottsman fallacy? As in, they aren't really Muslims if they are terrorists? Try telling them they don't have their interpretation correct once. They'd probably be just as interested in killing you for heresy.

I didn't say they aren't muslims.

Care to explain, then, why all of the verses mentioned do actually say so?

There is a thread about this now, go there to see the explanations.

I don't doubt that the book contradicts itself. I still would love to see why you think as clearly worded statements as the verses quoted don't mean what the rest of us, and all the extremist Muslims, take them to mean, because you didn't really do that. You just said "they don't."

There is no contradiction, like i said these verses are not general rules, while the other verses which clarifies our position from non-muslims are.

 

[Badran]

1. These things are themselves caused by Islam.

No they are not.

2. The one thing they all have in common is Islam.

Again, i'm afraid thats not the case.

 

[Badran]

There's a lot more, but I'm sort of worn out from reading all this for now.

Repost all this in its proper thread that Autodidact just started, and you'll get an answer.

This one: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/102138-quran-islamic-terrorism.html

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Oh, yes we would. We'd be hearing about how wonderful it was, how faith, peace, and healing rise from the ashes of 9/11. You greatly underestimate the hypocrisy.

Ha, possibly that too!

At first I really wasn't concerned about a Mosque being built two blocks away from ground zero. But what has bothered me was I heard a former terrorist on the radio who was adamant that they should not be trusted. Now I really do not know what to think

Don't forget, a radio program typically broadcasts what it wants its listeners to hear.

 

[YmirGF]

Don't forget, a radio program typically broadcasts what it wants its listeners to hear.

Um... what radio station doesn't broadcast what its listeners want to hear?

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Um... what radio station doesn't broadcast what its listeners want to hear?

Exactly.

 

[YmirGF]

Exactly.

I guess the real point is that Budha3 should investigate the claims he heard to see if they are warranted or hyperbole.

 

[Twilight Hue]

......Why should the rest of muslims have to deal with the consequences of the actions of a tiny minority of them?

I do agree that not all Muslims have a penchant for violence and terrorism, yet there is this one aspect of the debate that actually puzzles me here. Hopefully this is not too off topic, but If radical extremists are in such a small and tiny minority how in the world did they obtain such power, control, and influence in the first place and be prevalent in so many countries with insufficient opposition to point out that they are doing these horrible and terrible things? -NM-

 

[logician]

Although I'm not particularly fond of any religion, there still hopefully is freedom of religion in this country.

 

[Alceste]

I do agree that not all Muslims have a penchant for violence and terrorism, yet there is this one aspect of the debate that actually puzzles me here. Hopefully this is not too off topic, but If radical extremists are in such a small and tiny minority how in the world did they obtain such power, control, and influence in the first place and be prevalent in so many countries with insufficient opposition to point out that they are doing these horrible and terrible things? -NM-

I could ask the same of US Christian fundamentalists. Give fundies enough power and money and they will commit horrific acts of violence against the outsiders, every time. You don't need numbers, only wealth and power. Al Qaeda is supported by very wealthy and powerful Saudi Arabians.

 

[UniversalScholar]

Mosque anywhere is a good idea.