Mosque Near Ground Zero Clears Key Hurdle

[YmirGF]

What is your side? Mine is, as a muslim, is that i don't want people to blow themselves up killing civilians, i don't want any criminal behavior carried out under the name of my religion causing grief to others, i want militaries out of invaded countries, and i want us to reach a better understanding, so that we could overcome those who do pose a threat to people (and those are found on both sides). Isn't there similarities between our sides?

Your side IS similar to my side, however your personal views are not Islam, but are your own interpretations of Islamic teachings. Unfortunately there are a great deal of Muslims who do not share your carefully worded sentiments.

Who are you referring to, that wants the eradication of secular society? Because i'm pretty sure you don't mean muslims in general, so who in particualr?

Please refer to Not4me's thread Secularism vs Islam that stated flat out that Islam is not compatible with a secular society.

There is no doubt that secularism contradicts Islam in every aspect. They are two different paths that never meet; choosing one means rejecting the other. Hence, whoever chooses Islam has to reject secularism.

It is a bit of a no-brainer that if Muslims wish to build stronger Islamic societies, it will, by default, be at the expense of secular societies.

Islam doesn't advocate war, and there are many rules that we have provided before, clear general rules, that forbids muslims from being the aggressors.

I am fully aware of the rules of engagement, Badran. The simple fact is that wars can be started by Muslims over the thinnest of pretexts depending on how one want to interpret given actions.

I think its a rather bold statement to assume that all people who are in favor of this, know little about Islam. Not to mention that even if they disagree with its teachings, doesn't mean they would mistreat muslims.

Who is talking about mistreating Muslims? I made the comment as a simple observation as I have never known any of the non-Muslim posters in this thread to show any real knowledge of Islam on RF. At best, most seem to have a very superficial knowledge based almost solely on their interactions with Muslims. I do admit I could be wrong about that hunch, but again, I have never seen any of them offer any opinions on Islam of any note... so I was taking an educated guess.

 

[Kathryn]

Yes, don't worry about the feelings of the Muslims who have taken a lot of flack the past 9 years because of Americans' misunderstanding of the situation.

Oh, yeah - and while you're at it - would you mind explaining just what it is that Americans are misunderstanding about 3000 people killed by a gang of radical (gasp) MUSLIMS on 9/11 two blocks from the proposed mosque?

But let's move beyond the events of ten years ago. Let's just take a look at July 2010, how 'bout it - look how much radical Islam has progressed since that day:

Monthly Jihad Report

July, 2010


Jihad Attacks: 192

Countries: 23

Religions attacked: 5

Dead Bodies: 1060

Critically Injured: 1860


Yeah, keep telling yourself that peaceful Islamic leaders have everything under control.

I support Muslims' right to worship freely in the United States - to build their mosques wherever the zoning laws permit, to pray as often and as publically as they want, to proselytize and debate and procreate. My three children serving in the military would fight for their freedom of religion. I have Muslim customers and neighbors who I not only deeply respect, I genuinely like. I want only the best for them, and I enjoy sharing my community with them.

But I am not burying my head in the politically correct sand when it comes to the very real and continued threat of radical Muslims, here in the US and throughout the world. I have little confidence in Muslim leadership (whatever form and fashion that is, considering the thousands of factions of Islam, many actively WARRING against each other and persecuting and killing those who disagree with them as we speak) when bloody attacks which kill and maim thousands of people worldwide continue - with absolutely no indication that they are abating.

 

[beenie]

i honestly don't know where i stand on this. quite frankly i see both sides.

however, i'm quite tired of people (Sean Hannity and the like) insisting that "all Muslims need to apologize for the actions of the events of 9/11". my question is: why? Muslims were killed in 9/11 too, and i abhor what was done in the name of my religion.

BUT, i don't think we need to be constantly reminded of what happened every time there is a dialogue. i didn't do it, and none of my Muslim friends did it...as a matter of fact, the people that committed the acts on 9/11 are not Muslims in my book. they are terrorists. i don't care what language they spoke and what God they claimed to worship. their actions completely contradict Islam; therefore they are not Muslims.

i owe no apologies on their behalf. i'm as American as anyone on this board.

 

[Adramelek]

Personally, I don't give a rat's ash either about the building of any mosque or so called "muslim community center". Islam, Christianity, Judaism, there all based upon the same mind-numbing, self-subjugating philosophy, therefore, I have no use for them as a LHPather and therefore no church, temple, or mosque constitutes any kind of "threat" to me.:bat:

Hail, Shaitan!

 

[Badran]

Your side IS similar to my side, however your personal views are not Islam, but are your own interpretations of Islamic teachings. Unfortunately there are a great deal of Muslims who do not share your carefully worded sentiments.

Thats good to know, because hundreds of millions world wide share the things that i said in my last post addressed to you, which means they too share your side. That of course doesn't mean that there aren't any who view you as an utter enemy, but that sentiment is mutual, as in there are also lots of americans for example that just the word muslim resembles to them an enemy. The point is that while of course my personal views is not Islam, but that isn't in general like this. The majority of my opinions concerning anything that religion has a say in, are so with millions of other muslims. And the more we get to the basics, the bigger that number becomes. The fact is that most muslims are no different than anybody else. They want to just live their lives, they do not have aspirations to "dominate" the world, or to kill americans etc...

Please refer to Not4me's thread Secularism vs Islam that stated flat out that Islam is not compatible with a secular society.
It is a bit of a no-brainer that if Muslims wish to build stronger Islamic societies, it will, by default, be at the expense of secular societies.

I wasn't aware that there is a single member that speaks for all muslims here, and/or around the world. Here is my opinion, Islam most certainly does not contradict with secularism on every aspect, it contradicts with some aspects(according to some muslims that is, because there are muslims who accept secularism). Also, building an Islamic society is only an aspiration in a country which contains a majority of muslims, not in general. And these aspirations are not even shared by all muslims. Lots of people live their lives without even giving any serious thinking about this stuff. And of course such sentiment is not exclusive to muslims, a lot of people wish their religion to be reflected in the society they live in. Islamic society however does not mean enforcing Islamic values upon non-muslims, its a complicated issue which have been discussed in other threads. The point is, I and hundreds of millions of other muslims do not want to impose our beliefs nor our values on non-muslims in anyway shape or form.

I am fully aware of the rules of engagement, Badran. The simple fact is that wars can be started by Muslims over the thinnest of pretexts depending on how one want to interpret given actions.

There will always be plenty of bad examples, always, in every kind of group that exists. The point is, that we can not be aggressors, we can only defend ourselves an enemy that is killing muslims and/or deriving them out of their homes (invasion). And during that fight, also we are clearly instructed not to kill any civilians.

Who is talking about mistreating Muslims? I made the comment as a simple observation as I have never known any of the non-Muslim posters in this thread to show any real knowledge of Islam on RF. At best, most seem to have a very superficial knowledge based almost solely on their interactions with Muslims. I do admit I could be wrong about that hunch, but again, I have never seen any of them offer any opinions on Islam of any note... so I was taking an educated guess.

My mistake, i thought you meant that if they had known about Islam, they wouldn't support this.

 

[Badran]

Oh, yeah - and while you're at it - would you mind explaining just what it is that Americans are misunderstanding about 3000 people killed by a gang of radical (gasp) MUSLIMS on 9/11 two blocks from the proposed mosque?

But let's move beyond the events of ten years ago. Let's just take a look at July 2010, how 'bout it - look how much radical Islam has progressed since that day:

Monthly Jihad Report

July, 2010


Jihad Attacks: 192

Countries: 23

Religions attacked: 5

Dead Bodies: 1060

Critically Injured: 1860

I know this is not addressed to me, but this has pretty much nothing to do with the subject, i can't see why you felt this is relevant to share. Why post these actions that everybody knows that it does happen?

Yeah, keep telling yourself that peaceful Islamic leaders have everything under control.

The world is not that simple, You know that muslims are all around the world under different governments? This is a very strange thing to say. Why aren't the christian leaders controlling radical christians who blow up abortion clinics? Why aren't the christian leaders interfering to stop the US army from invading other countries? Why don't they have any control over some of the religion's followers doing these horrible stuff?

I support Muslims' right to worship freely in the United States - to build their mosques wherever the zoning laws permit, to pray as often and as publically as they want, to proselytize and debate and procreate. My three children serving in the military would fight for their freedom of religion. I have Muslim customers and neighbors who I not only deeply respect, I genuinely like. I want only the best for them, and I enjoy sharing my community with them.

Thank you.

But I am not burying my head in the politically correct sand when it comes to the very real and continued threat of radical Muslims, here in the US and throughout the world. I have little confidence in Muslim leadership (whatever form and fashion that is, considering the thousands of factions of Islam, many actively WARRING against each other and persecuting and killing those who disagree with them as we speak) when bloody attacks which kill and maim thousands of people worldwide continue - with absolutely no indication that they are abating.

I don't think anybody suggested this, who said you should? We don't bury our own when it comes to the very real and continued threat of the US army. I have little confidence in your leadership as well, and i don't shy away from saying that.

About the thousands part though, where did you get that information? I wasn't aware there are thousands of faction by which i guess you mean sects?

 

[Kathryn]

i honestly don't know where i stand on this. quite frankly i see both sides.

however, i'm quite tired of people (Sean Hannity and the like) insisting that "all Muslims need to apologize for the actions of the events of 9/11". my question is: why? Muslims were killed in 9/11 too, and i abhor what was done in the name of my religion.

BUT, i don't think we need to be constantly reminded of what happened every time there is a dialogue. i didn't do it, and none of my Muslim friends did it...as a matter of fact, the people that committed the acts on 9/11 are not Muslims in my book. they are terrorists. i don't care what language they spoke and what God they claimed to worship. their actions completely contradict Islam; therefore they are not Muslims.

i owe no apologies on their behalf. i'm as American as anyone on this board.

Ssain I agree with this entire post.

The only reason this is even being discussed is because of the extremely close proximity to Ground Zero of this future mosque - and the questionable ideology of the main dude in charge of the project.

But I in no way lump you into his category - let alone into the category of Muslim extremists or terrorists.

I have no reason to believe that you are anything other than an American who loves his country and the freedoms it offers.

 

[arimoff]

Don't you think this is a rather unfair assesment?



If you mean that your point is just to make sure of those behind this, then there is nothing wrong with that.

1. Are you trying to say that my previous life experience was/is an illusion or a dream? Or maybe you think I'm just making stuff up?

2. thats all I mean, I have no problems with people building religious buildings.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Oh, yeah - and while you're at it - would you mind explaining just what it is that Americans are misunderstanding about 3000 people killed by a gang of radical (gasp) MUSLIMS on 9/11 two blocks from the proposed mosque?

But let's move beyond the events of ten years ago. Let's just take a look at July 2010, how 'bout it - look how much radical Islam has progressed since that day:

Monthly Jihad Report

July, 2010


Jihad Attacks: 192

Countries: 23

Religions attacked: 5

Dead Bodies: 1060

Critically Injured: 1860

Yes, there are radical Muslims. Just as there are radical Christians.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ebates/95360-should-we-fear-christianity.html


(And I swear, if someone comes back with "The Muslims killed more than the Christians lately" I am gonna smack someone upside the head)

[Disclaimer-All threats of physical violence are are to be taken with a grain of salt]

 

[arimoff]

Don't you think this is a rather unfair assesment?



If you mean that your point is just to make sure of those behind this, then there is nothing wrong with that.

I have highlighted the areas that border on a prejudicial attitude towards Muslims.

As for accusations of racial, the Exodus verse concerned religion, not race. (You will notice that you were not the only one quoted in my reply. There was also a Christian)
Should we be concerned about "where's the money coming from" for every place of worship? Or just for Muslims?
Personally, I am not to big on enormous amounts of money spent on any religious church, temple, synagogue, mosque etc. But unless it can be shown that the Center will be used for the purposes you fear, they have every right to build on the only available and suitable piece of property in Manhattan.

I wouldn't say prejudicial it is more of a psychological issue.

I was born in Nalchik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
majority Muslim population, At the time of collapse of USSR majority of Jewish population fled to United States and Israel. More then one reason were the cause.

1 kidnapings for ransom
2. racketeering Jewish community
3. every business owned by a Jew had to have a Muslim partner.
4. can't attend a university if your passport says you are Jewish.
and the list can go on. All incidents were done by people of Muslim faith, constant discrimination by using remarks such as this is not your land, go back to Palestine and when people did start to leave and wanted to sell their houses the so called natives claimed sooner or later you will leave and we take the house for free.

A city, a region, dominated by majority Muslim population not one Muslim leader spoke out to defend Jewish inhabitants whose ancestors lived there even before those native tribes adopted Islam. It is theirs just as anybody else's. I have seen it all before I turned 10 and you are trying to tell me I'm being prejudicial?

 

[tumbleweed41]

I wouldn't say prejudicial it is more of a psychological issue.

I was born in Nalchik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
majority Muslim population, At the time of collapse of USSR majority of Jewish population fled to United States and Israel. More then one reason were the cause.

1 kidnapings for ransom
2. racketeering Jewish community
3. every business owned by a Jew had to have a Muslim partner.
4. can't attend a university if your passport says you are Jewish.
and the list can go on. All incidents were done by people of Muslim faith, constant discrimination by using remarks such as this is not your land, go back to Palestine and when people did start to leave and wanted to sell their houses the so called natives claimed sooner or later you will leave and we take the house for free.

A city, a region, dominated by majority Muslim population not one Muslim leader spoke out to defend Jewish inhabitants whose ancestors lived there even before those native tribes adopted Islam. It is theirs just as anybody else's. I have seen it all before I turned 10 and you are trying to tell me I'm being prejudicial?

Yes. Prejudicial. And I would say the same to a white man who formed his opinions on Blacks from his bad childhood experiences growing up in the Watts neighborhood of LA.

 

[Badran]

1. Are you trying to say that my previous life experience was/is an illusion or a dream? Or maybe you think I'm just making stuff up?

Not at all, i read your next post, and i realize you experienced closely these things. What i meant is, that its rather unfair to deduce from that, that in any place when muslims are majority, people will experience these things, thats what i understood you were concluding.

2. thats all I mean, I have no problems with people building religious buildings.

Thats great to know.

 

[Magic Man]

Sorry. but two blocks from Ground Zero - I'm defaulting to the feelings of the victims' families. I am not and have never advocated the persecution or discrimination against Muslims - and in fact, in my first post I made it clear that they SHOULD be allowed to build the mosque on the site they've chosen.

I understand what you said. You also said it was ignoring the feelings of the victims' families. Those feelings are fine to be respected, if they are grief and anger at the loss of loved ones, if that anger is directed the right way. If it's directed at the wrong people, then it's they who need to reassess their feelings, not others who should respect them anyway.

Really? How do you reach this conclusion?

Mostly from the comments of the Imam of the mosque, but also from common sense.

Ahhh, what logic. Spoken like a true adolescent.

Ahh, what nonsense. Spoken like a someone who really can't put her bias aside.

No, the comment is not "I'm going to do it just because you don't like it". The comment is "We're going to do it because of your feelings towards us. We're going to do it to show you why your anger and suspicion of us is completely misplaced". Don't let that stop you from misinterpreting what I say, though.

Oh my - there it is again - the ubiquitous RACE CARD! What a handy tool that little card has become lately - ever so in fashion.

I'm sorry, when did "Muslim" become a race?

What is the point of this statement? Frankly, the odd notion that Osama bin Laden was funding this mosque had never even occurred to me.

Then why are you worried about where the funds are coming from? What other reason could there be than you're worried terrorists are funding it?

Wow - I want some of what HE's drinking...well, maybe not. I'll ask again - where are you getting this notion?

Again, from what the Imam has said and from common sense.

If the iman really had this goal, he wouldn't be so intentionally inflammatory.

Any chance you could give us examples of him being inflammatory?

 

[Magic Man]

Oh, yeah - and while you're at it - would you mind explaining just what it is that Americans are misunderstanding about 3000 people killed by a gang of radical (gasp) MUSLIMS on 9/11 two blocks from the proposed mosque?

But let's move beyond the events of ten years ago. Let's just take a look at July 2010, how 'bout it - look how much radical Islam has progressed since that day:

Really? Come on, Kathryn, you're smarter than this. Yes, it was Muslims who committed the 9/11 attacks. Does that mean all Muslims should be suspected of terrorist activities? Even for you, this is ridiculous. I'm sure you'll denounce the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church, and agree that they only represent a tiny minority of Christians, and that people shouldn't treat all Christians as if they were like that. Yet, here you are suggesting this small minority of Muslims should influence how we treat all Muslims. Well done.

 

[arimoff]

Yes. Prejudicial. And I would say the same to a white man who formed his opinions on Blacks from his bad childhood experiences growing up in the Watts neighborhood of LA.

You can call it prejudicial or anything you want I really don't care, you can say to a white man anything you want .I do not feel hate towards all Muslims but I am skeptical when I deal with a Muslim until I see that he is different.

I don't stand in the middle of Manhattan and burn flags screaming death to Muslims and I don't bring any kind of pain or hate towards them but facts are facts!!!

 

[arimoff]

Not at all, i read your next post, and i realize you experienced closely these things. What i meant is, that its rather unfair to deduce from that, that in any place when muslims are majority, people will experience these things, thats what i understood you were concluding.



Thats great to know.

Yes everywhere Muslims are a majority minorities experience hate.

Now I did not say that its all Muslims fault, what ever are the reasons, few out of hundreds or just your leaders I really don't care, it is up to peaceful Muslims to show a different image and not just sit and constantly say not all Muslims are like that if they really care.

 

[beenie]

Yes everywhere Muslims are a majority minorities experience hate.

Now I did not say that its all Muslims fault, what ever are the reasons, few out of hundreds or just your leaders I really don't care, it is up to peaceful Muslims to show a different image and not just sit and constantly say not all Muslims are like that if they really care.

why and how? should i wear a scarlet letter? a placard on my back? i don't believe i have to be on the defensive all the time to prove i'm not a terrorist.

i conduct myself with respect and treat those around me the way i wish to be treated; i don't feel the need to defend Islam every minute of my life because a few have distorted views of my religion.

 

[Badran]

Yes everywhere Muslims are a majority minorities experience hate.

Now I did not say that its all Muslims fault, what ever are the reasons, few out of hundreds or just your leaders I really don't care, it is up to peaceful Muslims to show a different image and not just sit and constantly say not all Muslims are like that if they really care.

Well, that is your conclusion based on your life experience in one place. I definitely disagree with it. Its a generalizing and unhealthy method to judge more than a billion person around the world in different countries.

 

[Venatoris]

I don't want to overstep my bounds but if I were an american, I would be more insulted by the pitiful attempts to rebuild at ground zero than a mosque being built near the site.

 

[Kathryn]

Really? Come on, Kathryn, you're smarter than this.

You sure are wearing this line out alot lately - someone must have really made an impression on you when you heard them say it.

Yes, it was Muslims who committed the 9/11 attacks. Does that mean all Muslims should be suspected of terrorist activities?

How conveniently you overlook the fact that everytime I discuss this, I clearly state that I am only discussing RADICAL Muslim extremists.

[Yet, here you are suggesting this small minority of Muslims should influence how we treat all Muslims. Well done./QUOTE]

Your own biases are clearly displayed when you continually try to twist my very clear words to mean something that better fits your own agenda.

I am not suggesting that we treat all Muslims some certain way based on the very bad behavior of radical Muslim EXTREMISTS. In fact, repeatedly, I've said quite the opposite. However, we should never become so casual or politically correct that we don't pay very close attention to the activities of any sect, group, or individual who may be a threat to our national security.

Even for you, this is ridiculous.

Unfortunately, your responses to my posts are predictably ridiculous.