Most American Christians Believe They're Victims of Discrimination

[GoodbyeDave]

The complaints are not really coming from US Christians but from US Evangelical Protestants. If you look at the rash of "gay wedding supply" cases, I don't see any refusals from Catholic shopkeepers. In the UK we've only had two cases. I can't find any on the continent.

Those same fundamentalists who scream "discrimination" have always been happy to practice it, in the past against Catholics, today against Pagans.

 

[viole]

Most American Christians Believe They're Victims of Discrimination

Interesting article. Please discuss.

Sometimes I wonder whether some Christians do not enjoy being persecuted, deep inside. Because of some twisted logic, that might make them feel to be right. Like their martyrs. I might be a bit superficial, tho.

Ciao

- viole

 

[BSM1]

Sometimes I wonder whether some Christians do not enjoy being persecuted, deep inside. Because of some twisted logic, that might make them feel to be right. Like their martyrs. I might be a bit superficial, tho.

Ciao

- viole

I was raised in Christian churches and although a lot of lip service was given to happiness it almost seemed verboten to be such.

 

[Acim]

"But especially to those who believed that America was once a Christian nation"

America was never a Christian nation, it was not founded to be a Christian nation, and unless the First Amendment of the US Constitution is changed, America never will be a Christian nation. It is a nation of Christians, but it is not a Christian nation. If Christians feel persecuted and discriminated against, it's because they cannot have their way in making US law. If anything, they have had their way for far too long. There are Christian groups still protesting legalized same sex marriage in the US... as if it affects them. When NJ was debating legalizing same sex marriage back in 2006-2007, Gov. Christie, a "devout Catholic", refused to sign the bill citing his religious beliefs. It took a lawsuit in which the state supreme court ruled that not legalizing same sex marriage violated the state constitution. So for a while at least, he imposed his Christianity on a secular state. It doesn't sound like he was the one being discriminated against.

While this is all legitimate points, I disagree this is (solely) why Christians feel discriminated against. I think it is more along lines of secularists in America will seemingly give lots of religious leeway to other religions but not to Christianity. Such as if 4 Muslim high schoolers wish to hold prayer in a school because the timing of school (attendance) overlaps one of their prayer times, I do think a public school will accommodate this. Not sure why exactly, but I do think it is mainly to appear PC. Separation of church and state can be put on hold while these Muslim students practice their 'cultural difference' and everyone ought to be okay with this. If 4 Christians students wish to hold prayer meeting anywhere on the campus, then they need to be reminded of separation of church and state and be disallowed such an activity, as it violates the law, or some nonsense like that.

One of, I feel dozens of examples I could bring up.

As a Christian that doesn't rely on any outward rituals or need to formally congregate with others, I can't think of anything that has lead to me feeling like I've been discriminated against. Though, not hard to see another way in which the discrimination against Christians has occurred. A war on Christian symbolism strikes me as pastime for some people in America. I constantly wonder if same people have the guts to stand up, in similar fashion, to other religions. I routinely think they do not.

 

[Acim]

It does happen though.
In the 70s, I was turned away from a reactor operator job (Phoenix Memorial Reactor)
here at my university because they were under orders to hire only blacks & women.
(Other examples abound.) I did have an interesting discussion with its director, who
wasn't comfortable with the situation.

While not the same, a similar thing occurred to me in the early 1990's. I wanted to be part of large company's, newly formed, Diversity Committee and was only person in department I worked in that volunteered. A couple days after I put my request in, the (liberal) department manager pulled me aside into private room and said there's no way she can put a white male on that committee, and did her best apology that she could muster up.

 

[viole]

While this is all legitimate points, I disagree this is (solely) why Christians feel discriminated against. I think it is more along lines of secularists in America will seemingly give lots of religious leeway to other religions but not to Christianity. Such as if 4 Muslim high schoolers wish to hold prayer in a school because the timing of school (attendance) overlaps one of their prayer times, I do think a public school will accommodate this. Not sure why exactly, but I do think it is mainly to appear PC. Separation of church and state can be put on hold while these Muslim students practice their 'cultural difference' and everyone ought to be okay with this. If 4 Christians students wish to hold prayer meeting anywhere on the campus, then they need to be reminded of separation of church and state and be disallowed such an activity, as it violates the law, or some nonsense like that.

One of, I feel dozens of examples I could bring up.

If what you say is true, then I agree. Secularism cannot make any difference, without defeating itself.

As a Christian that doesn't rely on any outward rituals or need to formally congregate with others, I can't think of anything that has lead to me feeling like I've been discriminated against. Though, not hard to see another way in which the discrimination against Christians has occurred. A war on Christian symbolism strikes me as pastime for some people in America. I constantly wonder if same people have the guts to stand up, in similar fashion, to other religions. I routinely think they do not.

Come to Sweden! Nobody would object to a nativity scene outside a public place. Despite Sweden having a strong majority of atheists.

Ciao

- viole

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

While this is all legitimate points, I disagree this is (solely) why Christians feel discriminated against. I think it is more along lines of secularists in America will seemingly give lots of religious leeway to other religions but not to Christianity. Such as if 4 Muslim high schoolers wish to hold prayer in a school because the timing of school (attendance) overlaps one of their prayer times, I do think a public school will accommodate this. Not sure why exactly, but I do think it is mainly to appear PC. Separation of church and state can be put on hold while these Muslim students practice their 'cultural difference' and everyone ought to be okay with this. If 4 Christians students wish to hold prayer meeting anywhere on the campus, then they need to be reminded of separation of church and state and be disallowed such an activity, as it violates the law, or some nonsense like that.

One of, I feel dozens of examples I could bring up.

As a Christian that doesn't rely on any outward rituals or need to formally congregate with others, I can't think of anything that has lead to me feeling like I've been discriminated against. Though, not hard to see another way in which the discrimination against Christians has occurred. A war on Christian symbolism strikes me as pastime for some people in America. I constantly wonder if same people have the guts to stand up, in similar fashion, to other religions. I routinely think they do not.

The war isn't against Christian prayer or symbols; it's against officially endorsing Christian prayer or decorating public buildings with Christian symbols.

Put up crucifixes, ten commandment monuments, and nativity scenes at your church or house to your heart's content. Cover your car in Jesus Fish and drive around town for everyone to see - the next owner of the car might curse you (those things have some wicked adhesive), but you're perfectly welcome to do it. It's when you want these things on a public school, legislature, or courthouse that we run into trouble.

... and generally, the secular response hasn't been "get rid of it"; it's usually "if the Christians can do it, everyone else should be able to do it, too." Typically, it's the Christians who would rather get rid of their own symbols than share the public square with other religions.

 

[Revoltingest]

Normally, I'd bemoan the same thing. However, I believe all companies should have an extensive orientation program, especially if hiring (willfully or otherwise) "newbies". We used to have apprenticeships. I'd like to bring them back.

Aye, but universities don't train people for trades anymore.
And this was uncommon even in the past.
(My engineering school once had a foundry & machine shop program for students.)
If one comes to get a technical degree, one won't learn to wrench.

 

[Quetzal]

Aye, but universities don't train people for trades anymore.
And this was uncommon even in the past.
(My engineering school once had a foundry & machine shop program for students.)
If one comes to get a technical degree, one won't learn to wrench.

I think it might be making a come back. At the college I work at, trades have become a bigger demand than many of the academic/technical degrees. HVAC and CDL come to mind.

 

[Acim]

The war isn't against Christian prayer or symbols; it's against officially endorsing Christian prayer or decorating public buildings with Christian symbols.

Put up crucifixes, ten commandment monuments, and nativity scenes at your church or house to your heart's content. Cover your car in Jesus Fish and drive around town for everyone to see - the next owner of the car might curse you (those things have some wicked adhesive), but you're perfectly welcome to do it. It's when you want these things on a public school, legislature, or courthouse that we run into trouble.

None of the symbolism appeals to me. Personally, I see it as a good thing for Christianity (to get away from the symbolism), but realize that's my bias.

I don't think this is addressing what I was getting across. If another religion (via their believers) wanted their symbolism placed in public eye, I think there would not be as active of resistance to that, and could possibly see secularist types allowing it under guise of 'cultural differences.' However / wherever it is allowed, I see as either intentionally or inadvertently discriminating against Christians who would request similar thing.

Also, I observe you not really addressing the prayer thing which is less about symbolism and more about ritual. Again, I don't personally have a desire to formally congregate under my spiritual beliefs with others in public as I can literally pray anywhere at anytime. World ain't going to stop that.

... and generally, the secular response hasn't been "get rid of it"; it's usually "if the Christians can do it, everyone else should be able to do it, too." Typically, it's the Christians who would rather get rid of their own symbols than share the public square with other religions.

This is where agree to disagree would come up, I think. I'm sure there are examples of what you speak, and examples that go the other way, where all religions may wish to have symbolism in public life, but once the Christian asserts their desire to be part of public square, suddenly the anti-types would say none of it should be allowed in public square, just to spite the Christian.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think it might be making a come back. At the college I work at, trades have become a bigger demand than many of the academic/technical degrees. HVAC and CDL come to mind.

You'll never find anything so practical at universities obsessed
with prestige, eg, University Of Michiganistan, Harvard, MIT.
The curriculum must be hoity toity.

 

[Quetzal]

You'll never find anything so practical at universities obsessed with prestige, eg, University Of Michiganistan, Harvard, MIT.
The curriculum must be hoity toity.

And that is too bad, really. Especially since many folks enroll to help gain knowledge and skills to work.

 

[Revoltingest]

And that is too bad, really. Especially since many folks enroll to help gain knowledge and skills to work.

Schools which offer programs like Victimization Studies, & International Diversity
Studies aren't all that concerned with graduates being employable.

 

[Quetzal]

Schools which offer programs like Victimization Studies, & International Diversity
Studies aren't all that concerned with graduates being employable.

At my university there was a major in "University Studies", not kidding.

 

[David1967]

I have a friend who got a Masters degree specifically planning to teach at university level.
Towards the end the MA students were invited to sit in on the process of hiring staff and profs.
He quickly realized that as a white male he had zero chance of getting such a position. Affirmative Action was the order of the day. Much less qualified applicants would get the jobs for the foreseeable future if they were black or female.
Tom

Tom, if it was up to me I would have the questions regarding race taken off all job applications. Let the experience decide who is best qualified for the job regardless of race or sex. Imagine if race quotas were used in professions like "surgeon", or 'jet pilot'? I would not want to see that the surgeon set to operate on me was chosen over a better qualified doctor simply based on race. I think it comes down to equal treatment verses preferential treatment.

 

[David1967]

Schools which offer programs like Victimization Studies, & International Diversity
Studies aren't all that concerned with graduates being employable.

You got that right.

 

[Revoltingest]

At my university there was a major in "University Studies", not kidding.

Weird.
My school offered a degree in "General Studies".

 

[YmirGF]

At my university there was a major in "University Studies", not kidding.

Oy vey!

Weird.
My school offered a degree in "General Studies".

That might be interesting if the general was in top physical shape... otherwise, not so much.

 

[Quetzal]

Weird.
My school offered a degree in "General Studies".

But "University Studies" sounds more prestigious... I guess... I dunno.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

None of the symbolism appeals to me. Personally, I see it as a good thing for Christianity (to get away from the symbolism), but realize that's my bias.

I don't think this is addressing what I was getting across. If another religion (via their believers) wanted their symbolism placed in public eye, I think there would not be as active of resistance to that, and could possibly see secularist types allowing it under guise of 'cultural differences.'

Can you give some examples? All the cases I can think of are ones where many different religions, Christianity included, are welcome at the table.

I get the impression that you may be thinking of, say, acknowledging Ramadan or Diwali while not recognizing the Christian holidays that our society not only recognizes but is built to accommodate.

However / wherever it is allowed, I see as either intentionally or inadvertently discriminating against Christians who would request similar thing.

Again: I'll need some examples. I don't get the impression that this is happening.

Also, I observe you not really addressing the prayer thing which is less about symbolism and more about ritual.

I thought I did: personal prayer isn't the issue; state-sanctioned prayer is.

I remember being made to recite the Lord's Prayer in school; not okay. A Christian choosing to recite the Lord's Prayer on their own in school: okay.

Again, I don't personally have a desire to formally congregate under my spiritual beliefs with others in public as I can literally pray anywhere at anytime. World ain't going to stop that.

Same with Christians generally. Christians don't generally have specific times for prayer (except maybe grace before meals, for those who do it) or need a special room, special equipment, to face a particular direction, etc. We accommodate Christian prayer without doing anything.

This is where agree to disagree would come up, I think. I'm sure there are examples of what you speak, and examples that go the other way, where all religions may wish to have symbolism in public life, but once the Christian asserts their desire to be part of public square, suddenly the anti-types would say none of it should be allowed in public square, just to spite the Christian.

It isn't spite; it's a desire for fairness and accountability in government. It's also making governments uphold the law.