He did not, obviously. According to Buddhist writings which we are believing right? Do you think that is uncommon?
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Most trustworthy ?
- Thread starter John1.12
- Start date
Since you want to go through with this, I propose we compare Jesus with Buddha.
Ok for the criteria given i believe its only reasonable to go with Jesus. I would say its wiser to trust the creator of the universe that never sinned ( not even as a child) One that died for the sins of the world. Gave him self sacrafically to the world ..The one who redeems our souls, gives eternal life . The only way to heaven .Over a man that was ' enlightened' . That was not God ,claimed there is no creator God . And he left his family.
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The creator(s) of the universe are simply angelic beings who are below the Buddha. Buddha never sinned. He saw the suffering of the world and incarnated himself one final time and showed the way out of suffering out of empathy and compassion. For this he chose to suffer himself through many trials and tribulations till the path from suffering was clear for the world to follow. Buddha is the only way to the unbinding, which is beyond all heavens. Heavens are not eternal, they too decay as they are part of creation. The only way to eternity is unbinding from the wheel of creation itself and transcend all forms. And this ultimate state Buddha showed. Even the High Creator (Brahma Sahampati) is Buddha's disciple and a Bodhisatva. None is greater and more sinless than the Tathagata Buddha.
Ok and I appreciated that explanation. Ok from a position of trustworthiness then .Well I guess we probably need to establish a base line here . If we accept the Claims of Christianity about Jesus( Which i believe is plainly stated in the bible ) rather than the claims Buddhism says of Jesus. Because this seems to be the pattern . Every religion seems to make a claim on Jesus thats not the same as the claim Christians make. Its not the same Jesus .
So some factors that are about Trust .
1) Was he deceived ? This is about what they experienced. Was it a deceptive experience that was from a bad source. This would be from my perspective ( the bible ) a false spirit which deceives individuals away from the truth of God into a lie . So this can include seemingly positive experiences and ' peace ' even . The bible describes this as satan coming to people as an ' angel of light' . From the individuals perspective of course this is alluring . Now I can make the case that this is behind all religions . That false spirits create religions of all descriptions to deceive people into following them. Which ultimately lead people away from Jesus.
So for example in Islam , the Bible helps us see that potentially Muhammad's experience/ visitations from what he thought was the Angel Gabriel was actually a fallen angel a demonic encounter . We see also that Jospeh Smith was also visited by an ' angel '. Other religions speak of 'light " 'enlightenment ' and many other terms in which the bible warns against .All the ways in which certain religions call ' meditation, channelling ect the bible warns against these practices as they open people up to false spirits .
In Buddhism, Mara is the deceiving evil angel whom Buddha defeated to destroy the obstacles that cause people to mire themselves in suffering. The victory of Buddha over Mara is celebrated in scripture. There is no question of Buddha being deceived by any Satan or Mara like figure.
Maybe Jesus and his followers were deceived by Mara? If you cast aspersions on Buddha, I can do the same to Jesus can't I?
Buddhism makes no claims on Jesus. As far as Buddhism or Hinduism is concerned, Jesus is not relevant. But Buddhism does make the claim there are several creator angels who mistakenly think they are supreme and try to get earthly people to follow them. Maybe YhWh is one such?
So from both sides, it looks like there is the potential to be deceived. So how can we know?
//There is no question of Buddha being deceived by any Satan // From your position i can understand why you would say this but from mine its clear he was deceived. In fact its an obvious deception, in which the bible details . And yes I appreciate from your perspective you may have reasons to say Jesus was deceived. Do you say Jesus was deceived then ?
What you or I believe is irrelevant for the purpose of this debate. What we can actually show is relevant. Here is evidence from my side (with assumption that Buddhist scriptures are 100% valid...the criteria which you yourself laid down in the OP) that Buddha overcame the deceits of the evil angel.
Sn 3:2 Exertion
Ok occurring to your scriptures he overcame "the deceits of the evil angel." . Ok but this still falls under my remit of him being deceived. Satan as described in the bible gives people these deceptive experiences which will be seemingly positive . Enough for them to be written down to further deceive others into following the same path . That is the warning the bible gives. I believe he had a genuine experience ,just like Muhammed, Just like Joseph Smith , and many others. Some extreme some a little less . A more recent example would be 'Echart Tolle 'or the Author of ' a course in Miracles 'and Esther and Abraham hicks .
Why would Buddhists or myself care about what the Bible says? Remember your OP criteria. You said:-
"If we assume that all the claims of the religions are equally viable and their leaders / prophets/ figure heads existed and their sources ,reliable. If we grant all that and we simply base our judgments on ' trustworthiness."
Are you now deviating from the conditions under which this debate on trustworthiness is being held?
That's a fair point . Maybe I would have to create a new thread to discuss this without deviating from this op .
You do not want to discuss on these terms anymore? But even if you do what you propose, why would any one scriptures criticism of another belief system be considered more authoritative than that other belief system's criticism of the former?
I guess at best I could say I trust that he had geniune experiences but I don't trust it was from a good source.
My point would be that my scriptures warn against your scriptures as from a bad source ( to say the least )
The bible completely accepts the experiences that happens in other religions . It allows for all the things people claim ' must be from a good source ' and actually says they are demonic . People think satan only gives bad experiences, unsettling experiences and such . No he also can bring a false ' peace ' , success, ' enlightenment ' , and such.
criticism? Not criticism but warning.
What I'm saying is that my critique of Siddhartha Gautama isn't to say his character is necessarily untrustworthy because of his character, nature and such but rather, what he discovered and taught. From my perspective the bible informs me that he was deceived and that he was not necessary being deceptive. He believed his experiences were positive. As I did when I followed such practices before I was a Christian. I couldn't conceive how such practices could not be positive . Until I read the bible.
And to add . Is there a difference as to what Siddhartha Gautama taught and what others said about him after his death ?
My scriptures say the same about yours. Buddhist scriptures tells of a creator god (who actually created this earth) to have fallen under the spell of Mara (the deceiving angel) who feigns to serve at this God's court and is deceived into thinking of himself as the supreme being. So Buddha had to ascend to the heavens to counter this. The interesting thing here is that in the Bible, the Satan is actually at the court of YhWh and appears to work for him too (at least till Jesus's time when he is expelled or something). So it is quite possible that YhWh is the Creator God being discussed by Buddha here. Here is the Sutta
Brahma-nimantanika Sutta: The Brahma Invitation
Basically the Creator God had come to believe (under the influence of Mara) that He is the Supreme and His realm is the final realm. That he is Omnipotent. Buddha corrects him, shows many beings and realms exist above him and that the final state is the state at which Buddha is, the Unbound state described as "Consciousness without surface, endless all-encompassing and radiant" . Buddha also says many beings do worship this Creator God and hence fall under his power, but he and his disciples as well as the higher beings are beyond the God's reach.