Mother mary without sin?

[Betho_br]

Mary was a young woman who had great faith. Nothing more. Period.

As I wrote earlier, Jesus, after He had received the Holy Spirit, said that she was not his mother (symbolically of course). Matthew 12:48-50.

I believe what God's word clearly says, not contrived religious doctrine that contradicts it.

His belief is based on a terrible translation and goes against Greek grammatical rules and what's worse, this is visible to everyone.

 

[Kenny]

This was never the initial position of the early church and neither does it represent the meaning of the word “KECHARITOMENE” and the Greek grammatical rules in Luke 1:28. The name given to this is religious affront, but all religious feelings are permitted.

I’m not sure what you mean by “early” or “how early” you mean since the Dark ages started in the 5th century.

And there are many definition to the word in Greek for favored

 

[Betho_br]

I’m not sure what you mean by “early” or “how early” you mean since the Dark ages started in the 5th century.

And there are many definition to the word in Greek for favored

It is not only Protestant bibles that translate “KECHARITOMENE” as “graced”, many Catholic bibles also opt for this translation.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

His belief is based on a terrible translation and goes against Greek grammatical rules and what's worse, this is visible to everyone.

I think that Martin Luther contributed to and exacerbated the vast schism that already existed among Christians and that he made it worse. If their Bible translations were clear enough for them to agree on an accurate interpretation, then they would not be as divided as they are today. If they agreed on an accurate scriptural translation as well as doctrinal beliefs (such as salvation: conditional or unconditional; proper baptism: sprinkled vs. fully immersed; end times prophecy, female pastors, and the role of a husband and wife in a marriage), then there should be only one unified universal Protestant Christian church. There is a vast assortment of Protestants: Baptist (First Baptist, Second Baptist, Southern Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Primitive Baptist, Anabaptist, Freewill Baptist), Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Mennonite, Mormon, Church of Christ, Presbyterian, Seventh-day Adventist, Non-Denominational, The Assemblies of God, Church of God, Church of the Nazarene, and hundreds of other Protestant churches that aren't listed. Of course, there are also Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Messianic Jews, and Orthodox Christians (including Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox).

According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit indwells the followers of Jesus (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30), not only confirming to them that they belong to God and are saved (Romans 8:15-17; 10:9-13; 1 Corinthians 12:13), but also giving them spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:11) and spiritual discernment to properly understand the Bible (1 Corinthians 2:14). However, if the Holy Spirit resides within all these followers of Jesus and gives them spiritual discernment to properly understand the Bible, then wouldn't Christians from all over the world agree on a single interpretation of the Bible? I think would be reasonable.

 

[Kenny]

It is not only Protestant bibles that translate “KECHARITOMENE” as “graced”, many Catholic bibles also opt for this translation.

OK… I’m not sure why that is important to you… but “graced” is a beautiful word!

 

[jimb]

His belief is based on a terrible translation and goes against Greek grammatical rules and what's worse, this is visible to everyone.

A terrible translation? LOL!!! I sincerely doubt that you have better credentials than the committee of scholars who produce the excellent translations that we have today. If you do, a) produce the evidence and b) realize that you hold just one (biased) opinion.

My favorite translation is the NET. It is a great translation accompanied by more than 60,000 footnotes, produced by qualified scholars from all denominations. (I also use seven other translations regularly.)

I do NOT accept the obviously-biased opinion of anyone with a doctrinal agenda.

 

[jimb]

I have very little respect for anyone with a doctrinal agenda and a Greek lexicon. Especially Catholics who have created a fantasy castle of myths and false doctrine, all to control the masses. Much of what they espouse is to keep themselves in power while they leave Jesus on the cross and pray to His mother.

"You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free." Jesus Christ, Messiah, John 8:32

 

[Eliana]

What is this "dirty sinner" nonsense? That is some fantasy of yours that I have never heard before from anyone! Why are so you intent on distorting the Bible to match the false Catholic glorification of a young woman chosen for a specific task?

BTW, you still haven't answered why Jesus said that she was not His mother in Matthew 12. If she was so sinless and pure, He never would have publicly "disowned" her.

Essentially the immaculate conception was created because they believe in original sin nonsense. The theory goes that Jesus, who was allegedly sinless, could not have been born from someone who inherited original sin therefore Mary must not have had it. Aside from the fact that original sin is not supported in any way in the Tanakh, even if it was, their "solution" only pushes the problem back a generation. If Mary was sinless, how could she be born from sinful St. Anne? If G-D prevented Mary form inheriting it from St. Anne then why did he even need an immaculate conception for Jesus when HaShem could have just preserved him the way they allege Mary was.

It's really just part of their deification of Mary.

 

[Betho_br]

A terrible translation? LOL!!! I sincerely doubt that you have better credentials than the committee of scholars who produce the excellent translations that we have today. If you do, a) produce the evidence and b) realize that you hold just one (biased) opinion.

My favorite translation is the NET. It is a great translation accompanied by more than 60,000 footnotes, produced by qualified scholars from all denominations. (I also use seven other translations regularly.)

I do NOT accept the obviously-biased opinion of anyone with a doctrinal agenda.

In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, to a young woman given in marriage to a man named Joseph, from the family of David; The name of this young woman was Marie. The angel came to her and said to her: “Rejoice, you who have favor with God*, the Lord is with you. La Traduction œcuménique de la Bible (TOB) you who have favor with God*, NOTE: In the Orthodox tradition this word is translated as "full of grace".

So this eucumenical bible sums it all up, the orthodox translation is the traditional one made by Saint Jerome.

Holy Bible
'CRITICAL VERSION ON THE TEXTS
HEBREW, ARAMEAN AND GREEK
BY
FRANCISCO CANTERA BURGOS​

Annunciation to Mary. 1,26.38

'In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee whose name [was] Nazareth, "to a betrothed maiden with a man whose name [was] Joseph, of the house of David; and the name of the maiden [was] Maria. When he entered where She said: "Hail, full-of-grace!" the Lord It is with you.​

FULL-OF-GRACE

without article, and replacing the proper name, it is "the name* of the maiden." GRACE: «cháris», not with the meaning profane of kindness, beauty, but with the double meaning that it has in biblical language: benevolence (divine), for the one that God benignly grants a gift (a "favor*, a "grace"), to which the "gratitude*, the "thanksgiving" of the favored creature. FULL-OF-GRACE: in whom grace has rested; benevolently favored by God, adorned with the gifts of God; The grammatical form is the perfect participle of the verb «charitóó* (this verb appears again in the NT, in Eph 1:6, applied to Christians, who, thanks to Christ, have entered into the plan of God as the object of his benevolence; This confirms that Mary's fullness of grace is a function of her Son). * The Virgin would not have been or been "full of grace" if the shadow of sin, even original, had reached her. In Mariology this text is invoked as the richest and most evocative foundation and support of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. of Maria. THE LORD IS WITH YOU: formula of the stories of vocation and mission (cf. an example in the NT: Mt 28,20).​

 

[Kenny]

The Virgin would not have been or been "full of grace" if the shadow of sin, even original, had reached her. In Mariology this text is invoked as the richest and most evocative foundation and support of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. of Maria. THE LORD IS WITH YOU: formula of the stories of vocation and mission (cf. an example in the NT: Mt 28,20).

Actually, this is an interpretation. I wouldn’t subscribe to that position.

The word is used in multiple areas such as:

Rom 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace G5485 wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

And yet we still sin.

God created the body of Adam without sin even as He can create the body for The Word in Mary’s womb without sin.

 

[Betho_br]

Actually, this is an interpretation. I wouldn’t subscribe to that position.

The word is used in multiple areas such as:

Rom 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace G5485 wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

And yet we still sin.

God created the body of Adam without sin even as He can create the body for The Word in Mary’s womb without sin.

The word only occurs in Luke 1:28; Sirácida 18:17 and Ephesians 1:6 and is "related" to the word grace, but they are not the same word.

 

[Kenny]

The word only occurs in Luke 1:28; Sirácida 18:17 and Ephesians 1:6 and is "related" to the word grace, but they are not the same word.

Interesting, but the Strong’s Concordance says that it is the same word in Luke and Romans.

I’ve enjoyed the song of Mary:

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has )rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth (E)all generations will call me blessed.

Even Mary understood that she needed a Savior as she was, as we all are, in “the lowly state”.

So thankful that Mary had the faith to say to the archangel Gabriel “Let it be unto me according to thy word” and then the “Word became flesh” and he dwelt among us. Just as God spoke and the worlds were created, so He created the body Heb 10:5b but a body hast thou prepared me:

She was a women of great faith used of God.

 

[Kathryn]

Obviously your knowledge of Greek grammar has prohibited you from seeing the truth. You still haven't shown me where in Scripture that it clearly says that Mary was sinless.. There is an obvious reason: because it's not there.

Nowhere in the bible does it say many things, such as nowhere does it say we are all God's children. Nowhere does it say that God helps those who help themselves. Nowhere does it say that God wants you or me or anyone to be happy. Nowhere does it say that God doesn't give us anything we can't handle. Nowhere does it say that cleanliness is next to godliness. Nowhere does it say that money is the root of all evil. Nowhere does it say that the snake in the garden of Eden was Satan. Nowhere does it say that drinking is a sin. Nowhere does it say "hate the sin, but love the sinner." And nowhere does the bible say that the "lion will lay down with the lamb." Nowhere does it mention that an apple was the fruit that tempted Eve.

I don't believe that the Trinity is clearly spelled out, or that Mary Magdalene was necessarily a prostitute.

In fact, the bible is very clear that Jesus said many things that are not even mentioned in the bible. Does that mean these things are worth less than the things that are in the bible?

Sounds like a bit of sola scriptura to me. Which is a concept that is also nowhere in the bible.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Nowhere in the bible does it say many things, such as nowhere does it say we are all God's children.

Yes, this is true. 1 John 3:10 speaks of the children of God and children of the devil.

Nowhere does it say that God helps those who help themselves.

Yes, this is also true. It's a popular evangelical Christian phrase that is not found in the Bible.

However, Isaiah 25:4 states that God defends the helpless and the needy.

Nowhere does it say that God wants you or me or anyone to be happy.

I can agree with this.

I can't think of a single scripture that specifically states that God wants you, me, or anyone else to be happy, or at least not all of the time.

Nowhere does it say that God doesn't give us anything we can't handle.

I recommend reading 1 Corinthians 10:13.

Nowhere does it say that cleanliness is next to godliness.

I can also agree with this.

Nowhere does it say that money is the root of all evil.

1 Timothy 6:10 states that the love of money is the root of all evil.

Nowhere does it say that the snake in the garden of Eden was Satan.

However, Satan is described as a serpent in Revelation 12:9 and 20:2.

I recall from my studies in Christian theology that it was commonly believed that Satan was either the serpent or possessed it.

Nowhere does it say that drinking is a sin.

However, Ephesians 5:18 states that drunkenness is considered a sin.

Nowhere does it say "hate the sin, but love the sinner."

Yes, another popular evangelical Christian phrase that is not necessarily found in the Bible.

And nowhere does the bible say that the "lion will lay down with the lamb."

I recommend reading Isaiah 11:6-9.

Nowhere does it mention that an apple was the fruit that tempted Eve.

Yes, this is true. The Bible simply states that it was a forbidden fruit.

I don't believe that the Trinity is clearly spelled out, or that Mary Magdalene was necessarily a prostitute.

Good points, in my opinion.

In fact, the bible is very clear that Jesus said many things that are not even mentioned in the bible.

Yes, John 21:25 states this.

Does that mean these things are worth less than the things that are in the bible?

Out of respect for you, I won't answer this question.

like a bit of sola scriptura to me. Which is a concept that is also nowhere in the bible.

I decided to post this Christian apologetic resource, which explains the mindset of evangelical Protestant Christians who believe in sola scriptura.

What is sola scriptura? | GotQuestions.org

 

[YoursTrue]

Interesting, but the Strong’s Concordance says that it is the same word in Luke and Romans.

I’ve enjoyed the song of Mary:

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has )rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth (E)all generations will call me blessed.

Even Mary understood that she needed a Savior as she was, as we all are, in “the lowly state”.

So thankful that Mary had the faith to say to the archangel Gabriel “Let it be unto me according to thy word” and then the “Word became flesh” and he dwelt among us. Just as God spoke and the worlds were created, so He created the body Heb 10:5b but a body hast thou prepared me:

She was a women of great faith used of God.

Lovely comment, thank you Kenny.

 

[YoursTrue]

@Kenny In fact, you're bringing out the veracity of the Bible and why it would be overtaking what the Bible teaches to say that Mary did not need a savior -- also the "schism" there is really between major religions claiming to be Christian. Yes, thank you Kenny.

 

[Betho_br]

1) This salvation (Luke 1:47) has nothing to do with Jesus.

2) It is necessary to understand that when the angel called Mary “KECHARITOMENE” (Luke 1:28) Jesus had not even been generated...

3) All this greatness wrought in Mary is reported by her in Luke 1:49 "For he that is mighty hath done to me great things".

 

[Kenny]

@Kenny In fact, you're bringing out the veracity of the Bible and why it would be overtaking what the Bible teaches to say that Mary did not need a savior -- also the "schism" there is really between major religions claiming to be Christian. Yes, thank you Kenny.

Yes, there are differences in doctrine, I wouldn’t call it schism (although for some it may be). Personally, I believe that if the heart is right, God will work through the doctrine. If the foundation of Jesus dying for our sins, buried and resurrected is the foundation, then the Holy Spirit will help through the process of getting our doctrines squared away. I have many Catholic brothers that are filled with God’s Holy Spirit. There are many who even now understand that Mary needed a Savior. So “schism” is pretty relative to perspective IMV.

God is the judge.

I remember the scripture that says in Jeremiah 4:4 New American Standard Bible

4 (A)Circumcise yourselves to the Lord
And remove the foreskins of your hearts,
Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,

For us, God is after our hearts regardless of our works and theology. If we give Him our hearts, He will correct our theology. He hates the religiosity of relationship based on works.

 

[Kenny]

1) This salvation (Luke 1:47) has nothing to do with Jesus.

She is recognizing that she, like all of us, need a Savior for “God is my Savior”. It is right there in black and white.

2) It is necessary to understand that when the angel called Mary “KECHARITOMENE” (Luke 1:28) Jesus had not even been generated...

True, true. Does the meaning change when it is used elsewhere?

3) All this greatness wrought in Mary is reported by her in Luke 1:49 "For he that is mighty hath done to me great things".

Yes, yes, yes! To have been the vessel that God used is amazing! And we are thankful, aren’t we? She was “blessed among women” and we are blessed that The Word was made flesh full of grace and truth!

 

[Kathryn]

Yes, this is true. 1 John 3:10 speaks of the children of God and children of the devil.



Yes, this is also true. It's a popular evangelical Christian phrase that is not found in the Bible.

However, Isaiah 25:4 states that God defends the helpless and the needy.



I can agree with this.

I can't think of a single scripture that specifically states that God wants you, me, or anyone else to be happy, or at least not all of the time.



I recommend reading 1 Corinthians 10:13.



I can also agree with this.



1 Timothy 6:10 states that the love of money is the root of all evil.



However, Satan is described as a serpent in Revelation 12:9 and 20:2.

I recall from my studies in Christian theology that it was commonly believed that Satan was either the serpent or possessed it.



However, Ephesians 5:18 states that drunkenness is considered a sin.



Yes, another popular evangelical Christian phrase that is not necessarily found in the Bible.



I recommend reading Isaiah 11:6-9.



Yes, this is true. The Bible simply states that it was a forbidden fruit.



Good points, in my opinion.



Yes, John 21:25 states this.



Out of respect for you, I won't answer this question.



I decided to post this Christian apologetic resource, which explains the mindset of evangelical Protestant Christians who believe in sola scriptura.

What is sola scriptura? | GotQuestions.org

SOME Protestants believe in Sola Scriptura. I am Roman Catholic by the way and do not believe in sola scriptura.