Mother mary without sin?

[IndigoChild5559]

I think the greater question is if G-D went out of his way to preserve Mary from "original sin", why didn't he do so for everyone else? Jews don't believe in original sin, so I ask only as an intelectual exercise.

Having grown up in Ireland I've had more then my share of exposure to Catholicism. The Christian bible plainly states she had other kids, they insist she didn't. They believe she went to heaven without dying because G-D just took her, this isn't anywhere in their bible. The basis is is a pope in the 1800's said so, while also declaring his doctrines from the "chair of Peter" are infallible. I guess G-D isn't capable of communicating infallible doctrines if you sit in other chairs. They pray to her, something clearly forbidden in the Torah. They teach she is a mediator, as if G-D needs help making decisions or can be persuaded to anything.

It's astounding how far Catholics go to deify Mary whilst claiming they don't worship her.

Great post!

You are right. As a Jew, I just take Catholics in stride when they say things I disagree with. We all have our beliefs, and we all think we are right LOL

I'd like to respond to two of your points. I just want to make sure you first understand that I agree with almost everything you are saying.

1. Do Catholics think Mary is a God?

I have had conversations with many Catholics about this, and although I am much more comfortable with Jewish thinking, they do make their own kind of sense. First, the creed they recite at every single Mass affirms there is only one God. So everything we see them doing regarding Mary has to interpreted in THAT light.

The logic goes like this: worship and veneration can look very similar, but in order to worship a deity, you have to BELIEVE that it is a deity. Since Catholics do NOT believe that Mary is a god, we cannot say they worship her as a god. What they DO do is love and adore her, and respect her. To them, she is the first, best Christian and the honored mother of their Christ.

Their songs to her which contain all that flowery language is really no different than a man writing a love poem to his beloved. We of course would never accuse the man in love of worshiping his lady as God.

2. How does intercession play a role?

Catholics (and other Christians as well) routinely pray for each other. That IS intercession. The New Testament commands Christians to pray one for another. We can argue all we want that God doesn't need prayers since he already knows everything. Our reasoning is irrelevant to them. Intercessory prayer is a mainstay of their faith.

Now add on top of their idea of the "Communion of Saints," that mystical "body of Christ" that includes all Christians both here on earth and in heaven. They believe that Mary and the Saints pray for them. Asking Mary for her prayers is to them the same as asking the Catholic next to them in the pew next to them to pray for them.

 

[Betho_br]

The Birth of Samson

13 Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the Lord, so the Lord delivered them into the hands of the Philistines for forty years. 2 A certain man of Zorah, named Manoah, from the clan of the Danites, had a wife who was childless, unable to give birth. 3 The angel of the Lord appeared to her and said, “You are barren and childless, but you are going to become pregnant and give birth to a son. 4 Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean. 5 You will become pregnant and have a son whose head is never to be touched by a razor because the boy is to be a Nazirite, dedicated to God from the womb. He will take the lead in delivering Israel from the hands of the Philistines.” 6 Then the woman went to her husband and told him, “A man of God came to me. He looked like an angel of God, very awesome. I didn’t ask him where he came from, and he didn’t tell me his name. 7 But he said to me, ‘You will become pregnant and have a son. Now then, drink no wine or other fermented drink and do not eat anything unclean, because the boy will be a Nazirite of God from the womb until the day of his death.’” 8 Then Manoah prayed to the Lord: “Pardon your servant, Lord. I beg you to let the man of God you sent to us come again to teach us how to bring up the boy who is to be born.” 9 God heard Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman while she was out in the field; but her husband Manoah was not with her. 10 The woman hurried to tell her husband, “He’s here! The man who appeared to me the other day!” 11 Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the man, he said, “Are you the man who talked to my wife?” “I am,” he said. 12 So Manoah asked him, “When your words are fulfilled, what is to be the rule that governs the boy’s life and work?” 13 The angel of the Lord answered, “Your wife must do all that I have told her. 14 She must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, nor drink any wine or other fermented drink nor eat anything unclean. She must do everything I have commanded her.” 15 Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, “We would like you to stay until we prepare a young goat for you.” 16 The angel of the Lord replied, “Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the Lord.” (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the Lord.) 17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?” 18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.[a]” 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord. 22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!” 23 But his wife answered, “If the Lord had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this.” 24 The woman gave birth to a boy and named him Samson. He grew and the Lord blessed him, 25 and the Spirit of the Lord began to stir him while he was in Mahaneh Dan, between Zorah and Eshtaol.

Footnotes

Judges 13:18 Or is wonderful

Samson's birth was also miraculous, he was also visited by an angel. His mother was sterile and purified herself to become pregnant according to the prophecy.

 

[Eliana]

Great post!

You are right. As a Jew, I just take Catholics in stride when they say things I disagree with. We all have our beliefs, and we all think we are right LOL

I'd like to respond to two of your points. I just want to make sure you first understand that I agree with almost everything you are saying.

1. Do Catholics think Mary is a God?

I have had conversations with many Catholics about this, and although I am much more comfortable with Jewish thinking, they do make their own kind of sense. First, the creed they recite at every single Mass affirms there is only one God. So everything we see them doing regarding Mary has to interpreted in THAT light.

The logic goes like this: worship and veneration can look very similar, but in order to worship a deity, you have to BELIEVE that it is a deity. Since Catholics do NOT believe that Mary is a god, we cannot say they worship her as a god. What they DO do is love and adore her, and respect her. To them, she is the first, best Christian and the honored mother of their Christ.

Their songs to her which contain all that flowery language is really no different than a man writing a love poem to his beloved. We of course would never accuse the man in love of worshiping his lady as God.

2. How does intercession play a role?

Catholics (and other Christians as well) routinely pray for each other. That IS intercession. The New Testament commands Christians to pray one for another. We can argue all we want that God doesn't need prayers since he already knows everything. Our reasoning is irrelevant to them. Intercessory prayer is a mainstay of their faith.

Now add on top of their idea of the "Communion of Saints," that mystical "body of Christ" that includes all Christians both here on earth and in heaven. They believe that Mary and the Saints pray for them. Asking Mary for her prayers is to them the same as asking the Catholic next to them in the pew next to them to pray for them.

You saw where I said I grew up in Catholic Ireland?

I'm well aware what Catholics claim. What I said was they deify Mary while claiming they don't. I also listed examples of the divine attributes they ascribe to her, all without even a basis in their own bible. As far as praying to saints and whatever... I don't have a dog in that fight. I think it's all idolatry and iconography which HaShem clearly forbids. People are free to do as they wish regardless.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You saw where I said I grew up in Catholic Ireland?

I'm well aware what Catholics claim. What I said was they deify Mary while claiming they don't. I also listed examples of the divine attributes they ascribe to her, all without even a basis in their own bible. As far as praying to saints and whatever... I don't have a dog in that fight. I think it's all idolatry and iconography which HaShem clearly forbids. People are free to do as they wish regardless.

Here are the things you previously mentioned about Catholics.
1. They believe Mary is preserved from Original sin (which would make her like Eve before the fall).
2. They believe she had no other children than Jesus.
3. They believe she was assumed into heaven (kind of like Elijah).
4. They base some of their Marian dogmas on infallible statements by the Pope.
5. They pray to her. (I will discuss this separately).
6. They believe she mediates (I will discuss this also).

Here is the problem with your list. Absolutely nothing there makes Mary into a god.

Praying to Mary is not the same for Catholics as the worship of a deity. They are asking for her prayers. They don't believe she has any "powers" EXCEPT praying. Because they believe in the communion of saints, they see asking for the prayers of Christians up in heaven as the same thing as asking for the prayers of Christians sitting next to them on the pews. It is all part of "therefore pray one for another."

Is it different than Jewish tradition? Yeap. We do not ask for the prayers of the dead. But we also cannot say that asking for their prayers somehow means that these saints are gods. There really isn't anything in the Torah that says, "Thou shalt not ask the departed for their prayers."

Although you did not directly bring up the topic of the veneration of the saints, I think it is a good idea for me to address it. Although veneration and worship can appear similar on the outside, they are not the same thing. Again, if the being is not considered a deity, then the Catholics are not worshiping them. Showing love, honor, and respect is not deification.

I can't relate at all to the flowery love songs that Catholics sing about Mary. But it is not evidence that she is their deity. A man may write a love poem to his beloved talking about how she is his angel, the light of his world, yada yada. "But, soft! What light through yonder window breaks? It is the east, and Juliet is the sun." None of it means the man worships his beloved as God.

Although Catholics do consider Mary to be a mediator, they are not saying this in the same sense as when they say Jesus is the mediator. They do not put her on the same level as Jesus. They are referring to her ability to intercede, just as if you pray for me, you are interceding on my behalf.

I find it a little odd that you say having a mediator somehow insults God. Do you not believe Jesus is your mediator? Maybe I'm not remembering correctly. I have assumed you are Christian.

Now for me as a Jew, *I* have no mediator. I go direct to God. I don't need Jesus or Mary or anyone else. But that's very different from Christian tradition.

 

[Eliana]

Here are the things you previously mentioned about Catholics.
1. They believe Mary is preserved from Original sin (which would make her like Eve before the fall).
2. They believe she had no other children than Jesus.
3. They believe she was assumed into heaven (kind of like Elijah).
4. They base some of their Marian dogmas on infallible statements by the Pope.
5. They pray to her. (I will discuss this separately).
6. They believe she mediates (I will discuss this also).

Here is the problem with your list. Absolutely nothing there makes Mary into a god.

Praying to Mary is not the same for Catholics as the worship of a deity. They are asking for her prayers. They don't believe she has any "powers" EXCEPT praying. Because they believe in the communion of saints, they see asking for the prayers of Christians up in heaven as the same thing as asking for the prayers of Christians sitting next to them on the pews. It is all part of "therefore pray one for another."

Is it different than Jewish tradition? Yeap. We do not ask for the prayers of the dead. But we also cannot say that asking for their prayers somehow means that these saints are gods. There really isn't anything in the Torah that says, "Thou shalt not ask the departed for their prayers."

Although you did not directly bring up the topic of the veneration of the saints, I think it is a good idea for me to address it. Although veneration and worship can appear similar on the outside, they are not the same thing. Again, if the being is not considered a deity, then the Catholics are not worshiping them. Showing love, honor, and respect is not deification.

I can't relate at all to the flowery love songs that Catholics sing about Mary. But it is not evidence that she is their deity. A man may write a love poem to his beloved talking about how she is his angel, the light of his world, yada yada. "But, soft! What light through yonder window breaks? It is the east, and Juliet is the sun." None of it means the man worships his beloved as God.

Although Catholics do consider Mary to be a mediator, they are not saying this in the same sense as when they say Jesus is the mediator. They do not put her on the same level as Jesus. They are referring to her ability to intercede, just as if you pray for me, you are interceding on my behalf.

I find it a little odd that you say having a mediator somehow insults God. Do you not believe Jesus is your mediator? Maybe I'm not remembering correctly. I have assumed you are Christian.

Now for me as a Jew, *I* have no mediator. I go direct to God. I don't need Jesus or Mary or anyone else. But that's very different from Christian tradition.

I believe I acknowledge they claim not to worship her, and yet you keep explaining Catholicism to me as if I asked why they do what they do. what I said was they deify her while claiming they don't worship her. Do you actually read the entire posts people make before responding?

In addition, you just previously accused me of being an anti-Christian bigot in another thread and now you're assuming I'm a Christian. This is despite me saying clearly I'm Jewish on one of the very posts you quoted, my avatar being a woman wearing a tichel and my bio stating such. I'm an orthodox Jew in case there is still any ambiguity.

Deuteronomy 18:10 - 12 clearly states it's forbidden to consult spirits or intermediaries. You claim to be a Jew but seem very warm towards and accepting of Christian theology. The Torah states numerous times prayers are to be directed only at G-d, yet you seem to be defending their practices as just fine despite being prohibited by both the Torah and Halakha.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

what I said was they deify her while claiming they don't worship her.

I KNOW that. I was replying to your reasons for thinking this. It's the first part of your remark I have problems with. Not the second.

In addition, you just previously accused me of being an anti-Christian bigot in another thread and now you're assuming I'm a Christian. This is despite me saying clearly I'm Jewish on one of the very posts you quoted,

I'm very sorry. This is not an excuse, but I read so many different people in here that I do have a hard time keeping everyone straight. The reason for my error was you were saying almost all the things I hear Protestant say about Catholics. You are a new person for me. I just need time. Again, very sorry.

Deuteronomy 18:10 - 12 clearly states it's forbidden to consult spirits or intermediaries.

That's not what going on with Catholics. They are not looking for any reply. It's not a consultation.

You claim to be a Jew but seem very warm towards and accepting of Christian theology.

Pfft. I'm obviously quite new to you as well.

The Torah states numerous times prayers are to be directed only at G-d, yet you seem to be defending their practices as just fine despite being prohibited by both the Torah and Halakha.

Look, I pray only to God. But let's be honest and fair. The Torah says to only worship God. But the Torah never mentions praying only to God. The source of the confusion between Catholics and us Jews, is that we Jews never use prayer except to worship God, but it's not that way for Catholics. They use prayer for non-worship purposes. It's an easy misunderstanding to make, to simply assume that by praying to the saints they are worshiping them.

 

[Eliana]

I KNOW that. I was replying to your reasons for thinking this. It's the first part of your remark I have problems with. Not the second.

I'm very sorry. This is not an excuse, but I read so many different people in here that I do have a hard time keeping everyone straight. The reason for my error was you were saying almost all the things I hear Protestant say about Catholics. You are a new person for me. I just need time. Again, very sorry.

That's not what going on with Catholics. They are not looking for any reply. It's not a consultation.

Pfft. I'm obviously quite new to you as well.

Look, I pray only to God. But let's be honest and fair. The Torah says to only worship God. But the Torah never mentions praying only to God. The source of the confusion between Catholics and us Jews, is that we Jews never use prayer except to worship God, but it's not that way for Catholics. They use prayer for non-worship purposes. It's an easy misunderstanding to make, to simply assume that by praying to the saints they are worshiping them.

Where does HaShem say it's okay to consult spirits and so on as long as you aren't looking for a reply? I was under the impression don't do it means don't do it. Is it also okay for a married person to flirt with or hit on other people as long as they aren't expecting a response? Can I build a statue of HaShem and put it in my living room as long as I don't expect anyone to worship it?

They deify Mary by giving her numerous divine attributes such as going to heaven physically without dying, being preserved from the original sin they believe in, she is in heaven pleading our case. On and on it goes.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

God if fully manifest, no one can deny and no would disbelieve. God is both hidden and manifest. When he will be fully manifest on day of judgment, it's forced on the souls that avoided God's proximity and path to him in this world, and if souls know God is true, they wish to submit, avoid hell and be given good will. However it's impossible, because now they can't love God and if made to forget to some degree the encounter, they would break promise again. But without return to this world, it's impossible at this point to change out of love.

They will see God to exist, they will witness the Prophets are true.

They will be veiled from his beauty and further from the path of love towards God.

There is no mechanism possible at this point to save them. Death is a timer, so we get things right, and don't fall forever.

Hell physical punishments are promised to make us avoid even though the light burning darkness type punishment which doubles, and doubles, is very much more painful. That (light burning the darkness) can't be undone once witnessed, unless the soul is made to forget, but it will break the promise again in this case.

Fearing God in this world, is an act of love towards who God is, because of his judgment, justice, and that he is hidden.

It takes courage to fear God and accept we are worthy of his wrath. It takes humility to seek his forgiveness and try to reform with his help.

If we won't get it right this time around, there is no getting it right after.

You have a strange idea of what "love" is.

 

[Muffled]

The expression "The Immaculate Conception" is often confusing for people. Protestants who have never been exposed to this doctrine often assume it is referring to Jesus' miraculous birth of a virgin, but it is not. "The Immaculate Conception" is a Catholic dogma that says God miraculously preserved Mary from the taint of Original Sin, so that she never sinned, and was thus fit to give birth to Jesus.

The idea that Mary was without sin is a tradition that goes WAY back in Christian history. St. Ephrem the Syrian wrote songs saying this back in the 4th century. It was simply a common assumption by Catholics and Orthodox for most of Church history. However, it did not reach its finally version (involving not being tainted with Original Sin) until much later, and didn't officially become Catholic dogma until Pope Pius IX's infallible declaration in 1854.

The elevation of Mary to being sinless seems to have evolved hand in hand with the idea that Jesus was God. If God is going to be born as a human, many assume that the mother would have therefore had to be exceptional.

I believe Jesus is God in the flesh as scriptures say and Mary is not sinless by way of silence. The Bible neveer says she is.

 

[Muffled]

"God = judge through me"

Interesting idea, considering:
God has been described as "Father" and "creator" and we are described as "His children", each having the ability to make use of our conscience

Did you mean "you do the judging for God (or in name of God)"?

I do not mean that I do the judging. God does it through me.

 

[metis]

What I said was they deify Mary while claiming they don't.

Christian beliefs are found in the Bibe itself but also interpretations and applications, much like Jewish commentary is not restricted just to the literalistic words of Torah.

As far as praying to saints and whatever... I don't have a dog in that fight. I think it's all idolatry and iconography which HaShem clearly forbids.

It's basically more accurate to pray "through" the saints. If a Catholic doesn't want to, that's fine.

 

[Eliana]

Christian beliefs are found in the Bibe itself but also interpretations and applications, much like Jewish commentary is not restricted just to the literalistic words of Torah.



It's basically more accurate to pray "through" the saints. If a Catholic doesn't want to, that's fine.

I was speaking on the deification of Mary, not the source of Christian doctrine.

Praying to/praying through is a distinction without a difference.

Like I said, I don't have a dog in the fight and I think Christianity is idolatry either way. I was just making an observation.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I believe Jesus is God in the flesh as scriptures say and Mary is not sinless by way of silence. The Bible neveer says she is.

Well, that's fine for a sola scriptura Protestant like you. But the majority of Chrsitains in the world (Catholic, Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox) are not "bible only." Their authority is the Church, which of course includes the Bible, but also considers things like the decisions of ecumenical councils to be inspired and authoritative for doctrine.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Where does HaShem say it's okay to consult spirits

They are not consulting spirits. Do they ever tell you anything the saints say back to them? Nope. Consultation means inquiring for an answer for an issue.

So it's not that they are consulting and not expecting a reply, because that is an oxymoron. They are not consulting at all.

They deify Mary by giving her numerous divine attributes such as going to heaven physically without dying,

You mean like Elijah? He was a god?

being preserved from the original sin they believe in,

You mean like Eve before she ate the fruit? She was a god?

she is in heaven pleading our case. On and on it goes.

You mean like the Tzaddikim of blessed memory? In some Hasidic and Kabbalistic teachings, it is believed that tzaddikim, even after death, maintain a spiritual connection with the living. They are seen as righteous individuals whose merits or prayers can help those who seek their intercession. For instance, people might visit the graves of tzaddikim (such as the graves of famous rabbis) and pray for their merits to be a source of blessing. Heck, I can go to a Lubavitcher website right now, and text a message I want placed on the Rebbe's grave. You mean like that? The tzaddikim are all gods?

 

[Betho_br]

What about teraphim in the Hebrew Bible? Hosea 3:4

> One was even used to save the great king David

1 Samuel 19:13-15

Michal took a statue, laid it on the bed, put a goatskin at its head, and covered it with a cloak.
When Saul sent messengers to arrest David, she said: He is sick.
Saul sent them again to see David, saying to them, Bring him to my bed, that I may kill him.

The Jews could explain this.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What about teraphim in the Hebrew Bible? Hosea 3:4

> One was even used to save the great king David

1 Samuel 19:13-15

Michal took a statue, laid it on the bed, put a goatskin at its head, and covered it with a cloak.
When Saul sent messengers to arrest David, she said: He is sick.
Saul sent them again to see David, saying to them, Bring him to my bed, that I may kill him.

The Jews could explain this.

The use of teraphim in this verse is interesting because it suggests that despite Israelite prohibitions against idols, they were still present in some households, even in the home of King Saul’s family.

When you read the prophets, what you find is that over and over, there were Jews who slid back into idolatry. It was the job of the Prophets to rebuke them when this happened.

It really wasn't until the Babylonian captivity that idolatry was finally burned out of the Jewish soul forever. Both Josephus and Tacitus record Pompeii's astonishment when he conquered Jerusalem and found no idols in the Temple.

 

[paarsurrey]

Mother Mary without sin?

Every righteous person is without sin like Adam, please, right?

Regards

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Mother Mary without sin?

Every righteous person is without sin like Adam, please, right?

Regards

Um, no. Every righteous person has repented and is forgiven. That's not really the same thing.

 

[Eliana]

They are not consulting spirits. Do they ever tell you anything the saints say back to them? Nope. Consultation means inquiring for an answer for an issue.

So it's not that they are consulting and not expecting a reply, because that is an oxymoron. They are not consulting at all.

You mean like Elijah? He was a god?

You mean like Eve before she ate the fruit? She was a god?


You mean like the Tzaddikim of blessed memory? In some Hasidic and Kabbalistic teachings, it is believed that tzaddikim, even after death, maintain a spiritual connection with the living. They are seen as righteous individuals whose merits or prayers can help those who seek their intercession. For instance, people might visit the graves of tzaddikim (such as the graves of famous rabbis) and pray for their merits to be a source of blessing. Heck, I can go to a Lubavitcher website right now, and text a message I want placed on the Rebbe's grave. You mean like that? The tzaddikim are all gods?

Either you aren't Jewish or aren't a religious one because you are falsely presenting Christian theology as Jewish. If I went into a synagogue and said what you were saying I'd be excommunicated.

- Jews have never believed in original sin so there was nothing to preserve Eve from to begin with.
- Elijah isn't deified and we don't pray to him.
- Judaism teaches it is theoretically possible to live a sinless life. This does not make someone divine.
- Jews don't pray to former rabbi's, they ask G-d for simular blessings and attributes.
- I personally don't believe in Kabbalah mysticism and think it's a bunch of mystical magical woo.

 

[Jimmy]

No one is without sin not even Jesus.