"Mother of God"

[First Baseman]

But it really isn't that simple, especially when we get to the issue of Jesus supposedly being the "final sacrifice". For example, which is supposedly actually being sacrificed: Jesus' humanness or Jesus' divinity?

Which do you think?

 

[metis]

Which do you think?

Since I'm neither Catholic nor Christian, any opinion I might have just doesn't much apply here. You might check out my signature statement at the bottom of this post.

Let me just add that I have a copyright on the statement "I don't know".

 

[Etritonakin]

But it really isn't that simple, especially when we get to the issue of Jesus supposedly being the "final sacrifice". For example, which is supposedly actually being sacrificed: Jesus' humanness or Jesus' divinity?

I don't see much complexity there -his physical body was tortured and killed -he experienced great pain -he died -and then was resurrected -then ascended.

 

[metis]

I don't see much complexity there -his physical body was tortured and killed -he experienced great pain -he died -and then was resurrected -then ascended.

Human sacrifices were and are forbidden in Judaism going well back before Jesus existed, plus animal/grain sacrifices had to be performed according to prescribe ritual, and crucifixion certainly wasn't one of them. Plus the "sacrifice" was performed by the Romans, not Jews.

Such a "sacrifice" cannot be accepted on a literal level, but it can be used in a symbolic fashion, which is where I believe Paul was likely coming from. The problem later, however, is that non-Jews would not recognize it as such and tend to believe it literally.

 

[Etritonakin]

Human sacrifices were and are forbidden in Judaism going well back before Jesus existed, plus animal/grain sacrifices had to be performed according to prescribe ritual, and crucifixion certainly wasn't one of them. Plus the "sacrifice" was performed by the Romans, not Jews.

Such a "sacrifice" cannot be accepted on a literal level, but it can be used in a symbolic fashion, which is where I believe Paul was likely coming from. The problem later, however, is that non-Jews would not recognize it as such and tend to believe it literally.

Well ....Christ didn't forbid himself from sacrificing himself -which he did for us. It doesn't matter who performed it -he showed up for the event by choice by becoming human -and choosing to do the will of the Father rather than having the cup pass from him as he put it.. The Romans didn't make a sacrifice -they had a torture session and an execution.

 

[metis]

Well ....Christ didn't forbid himself from sacrificing himself -which he did for us. It doesn't matter who performed it -he showed up for the event by choice by becoming human -and choosing to do the will of the Father rather than having the cup pass from him as he put it.. The Romans didn't make a sacrifice -they had a torture session and an execution.

Again, it simply is not the prescribed sacrifice method as covered in Torah, nor does it make one iota of sense if taken literally. Do you honestly believe in human sacrifices?

It's really more of what is sometimes called a "theological construct". IOW symbolic, which is compatible with traditional Jewish writing styles such as you'd find in Psalms, Proverbs, even Revelation.

 

[Kapalika]

So Mary is, you suppose, the representative in Christianity of some feminine aspect of divinity? This is because she is female and because Jesus the Father are male? I do not think this is how many Christians think about Mary. I think there are tiny connections to the Jewish ideas about masculine and feminine that people often don't notice, and I think only the liturgical churches usually have an appreciation of a divine feminine if at all. They have the prayers to Mary and female saints.

Well it's kind of hard to find femininity in a religion so positioned in patriarchy.. Though I've heard some argue that Yeshua was the feminization to the more harsh Old Testament God Yahweh. My point was simply that she was a female figure highly revered by some.

It seems that if one believes in the Trinity, namely that Jesus is God, and since Mary gave birth to Jesus, does that not make Mary the "Mother of God"? Isn't this just connecting the dots? If not, why not?

I can agree with this.

Your "spiritual-religious system" obviously isn't based on Christ. So why don't you just bug out of the conversation?

Should anyone who isn't Christian "bug out" then?

What has been told to me before: God planted a seed in Mary, and it grew. Therefore Jesus was a miraculous child of God. Mary did nurture him, but she did not provide any divinity.

Her being an earthly mother doesn't really defeat the arguement. A mother need not be biological to be maternal. Divinity isn't a supernatural aspect like some think. It's a given attribute to what is worshiped or revered highly enough.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I want to ask people who say Mary is Not the mother of god.

Do you mean god the father?

Or god the son?

 

[First Baseman]

Since I'm neither Catholic nor Christian, any opinion I might have just doesn't much apply here. You might check out my signature statement at the bottom of this post.

Let me just add that I have a copyright on the statement "I don't know".

Okay, that's a good answer. I appreciate your candor.

 

[First Baseman]

Again, it simply is not the prescribed sacrifice method as covered in Torah, nor does it make one iota of sense if taken literally. Do you honestly believe in human sacrifices?

It's really more of what is sometimes called a "theological construct". IOW symbolic, which is compatible with traditional Jewish writing styles such as you'd find in Psalms, Proverbs, even Revelation.

What about the various OT verses that prophecy that the Messiah must die like those found in Isaiah?

 

[Etritonakin]

Again, it simply is not the prescribed sacrifice method as covered in Torah, nor does it make one iota of sense if taken literally. Do you honestly believe in human sacrifices?

It's really more of what is sometimes called a "theological construct". IOW symbolic, which is compatible with traditional Jewish writing styles such as you'd find in Psalms, Proverbs, even Revelation.

I'm just glad I don't think that much about stuff.

 

[metis]

What about the various OT verses that prophecy that the Messiah must die like those found in Isaiah?

Could you be more specific in terms of which verses are you referring to? Below is a listing of verses that are pretty clearly messianic in nature:

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

 

[First Baseman]

Well it's kind of hard to find femininity in a religion so positioned in patriarchy.. Though I've heard some argue that Yeshua was the feminization to the more harsh Old Testament God Yahweh. My point was simply that she was a female figure highly revered by some.



I can agree with this.



Should anyone who isn't Christian "bug out" then?



Her being an earthly mother doesn't really defeat the arguement. A mother need not be biological to be maternal. Divinity isn't a supernatural aspect like some think. It's a given attribute to what is worshiped or revered highly enough.

Yes, I think people who are anti-Christian should bug out because we can't accept what a Satanist says with any reliability especially since Satan is diametrically opposed to Christ and Satan is the father of lies.

 

[First Baseman]

Could you be more specific in terms of which verses are you referring to? Below is a listing of verses that are pretty clearly messianic in nature:

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

Try these, particularly Isaiah 53:


Messiiah would be rejected by his own people.Psalm 69:8
Isaiah 53:3John 1:11
John 7:515Messiah would be a prophet.Deuteronomy 18:15Acts 3:20-2216Messiah would be preceded by Elijah.Malachi 4:5-6Matthew 11:13-1417Messiah would be declared the Son of God.Psalm 2:7Matthew 3:16-1718Messiah would be called a Nazarene.Isaiah 11:1Matthew 2:2319Messiah would bring light to Galilee.Isaiah 9:1-2Matthew 4:13-1620Messiah would speak in parables.Psalm 78:2-4
Isaiah 6:9-10Matthew 13:10-15, 34-3521Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted.Isaiah 61:1-2Luke 4:18-1922Messiah would be a priest after the order ofMelchizedek.Psalm 110:4Hebrews 5:5-623Messiah would be called King.Psalm 2:6
Zechariah 9:9Matthew 27:37
Mark 11:7-1124Messiah would be praised by little children.Psalm 8:2Matthew 21:1625Messiah would be betrayed.Psalm 41:9
Zechariah 11:12-13Luke 22:47-48
Matthew 26:14-1626Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field.Zechariah 11:12-13Matthew 27:9-1027Messiah would be falsely accused.Psalm 35:11Mark 14:57-5828Messiah would be silent before his accusers.Isaiah 53:7Mark 15:4-529Messiah would be spat upon and struck.Isaiah 50:6Matthew 26:6730Messiah would be hated without cause.Psalm 35:19
Psalm 69:4John 15:24-2531Messiah would be crucified with criminals.Isaiah 53:12Matthew 27:38
Mark 15:27-2832Messiah would be given vinegar to drink.Psalm 69:21Matthew 27:34
John 19:28-3033Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced.Psalm 22:16
Zechariah 12:10John 20:25-2734Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed.Psalm 22:7-8Luke 23:3535Soldiers would gamble for Messiah's garments.Psalm 22:18Luke 23:34
Matthew 27:35-3636Messiah's bones would not be broken.Exodus 12:46
Psalm 34:20John 19:33-3637Messiah would be forsaken by God.Psalm 22:1Matthew 27:4638Messiah would pray for his enemies.Psalm 109:4Luke 23:3439Soldiers would pierce Messiah's side.Zechariah 12:10John 19:3440Messiah would be buried with the rich.Isaiah 53:9Matthew 27:57-6041Messiah would resurrect from the dead.Psalm 16:10
Psalm 49:15Matthew 28:2-7
Acts 2:22-3242Messiah would ascend to heaven.Psalm 24:7-10Mark 16:19
Luke 24:5143Messiah would be seated at God's right hand.Psalm 68:18
Psalm 110:1Mark 16:19
Matthew 22:4444Messiah would be a sacrifice for sin.Isaiah 53:5-12Romans 5:6-8


There are quite a few, actually. But particularly in Isaiah 53.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, I think people who are anti-Christian should bug out because we can't accept what a Satanist says with any reliability especially since Satan is diametrically opposed to Christ and Satan is the father of lies.

This isn't a DIR. Anyone is free to post in debate sections, and it's quite rude to tell someone to leave because you don't like their religion. Also, there is no "we" here. I'm Catholic and Mandi is a friend of mine.

 

[First Baseman]

This isn't a DIR. Anyone is free to post in debate sections, and it's quite rude to tell someone to leave because you don't like their religion. Also, there is no "we" here. I'm Catholic and Mandi is a friend of mine.

No Satanist is or ever will be my friend. The rest of your opinion is noted.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No Satanist is or ever will be my friend. The rest of your opinion is noted.

Well, I think that God would want us to be friends with everyone.

 

[First Baseman]

Well, I think that God would want us to be friends with everyone.

Well, you're wrong. Were the Pharisees Jesus' friends? Not sure about you but I don't think so. Also, you have read where Jesus said, "Get thee behind me, Satan!" Satan was not Jesus' friend, either.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, I think people who are anti-Christian should bug out because we can't accept what a Satanist says with any reliability especially since Satan is diametrically opposed to Christ and Satan is the father of lies.

Just a question because I live in a diverse area where Catholics welcome any person regardless of their beliefs-satanic or not.

Is it your personal preference to not associate with Satanist (people) or are you reflecting your disagreement with satanism on those who believe in it?

I hear a lot of protestants put down people's beliefs but rarely a person who holds that believe. I never heard a Catholic-lay, priest, and otherwise-put someone down (or tell them to bug out) based on their belief system.

This is quite different to hear. Is this your personal belief or preference?

That and number 56 post.

Jesus associated with sinners. He died for sinners. He associated with people who did not believe in him. He associated with people who hated him and had different beliefs than he did. Wouldn't that be contradicting or even putting Christ down to not associate with non-Christians?

Is that even Christian?



I know not all Catholics are priests, but I'm sure they are friends to all people not just Catholics.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, you're wrong. Were the Pharisees Jesus' friends? Not sure about you but I don't think so. Also, you have read where Jesus said, "Get thee behind me, Satan!" Satan was not Jesus' friend, either.

The Pharisees didn't want to be His friends. They closed themselves off. And He said that to Peter, not Satan.