• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Muhammad and the Bible Proofs, an Islamic quandary

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
It would be interesting to hear from Muslims how they perceive the significance of the year AH 1260/1844 AD with Islamic prophecy. There was certainly a time of intense Meesianic expectation amongst both Muslims and Christians.

For example Christians were expecting the return of Christ and William Miller predicted 1844 as you have alluded to:

400px-2300days.jpg


Actuallly 1844 was considered the great disappointment as his followers so strongly believed 1844 was the year, but I believe they were looking in the wrong places (everywhere but Persia).

William Miller (preacher) - Wikipedia

What did happen that year was The Bab, one of the prophets of my religion (the Baha'i Faith) proclaimed a Message that the promised Day had come. Like Elijah He was preparing the way for One whose Cause would be greater. The man was widely recognised as Baha'u'llah by most of the Babis.

One of the specific prophecies in Islam referred to the Madhi or Qa'im.

Mahdi - Wikipedia

Like you, I'm doing research in this area to further my understanding so perhaps we could be of assistance to one another.


I'm comfortable with an exegesis of the book of Revelation and Daniel and there are important sections that refer to Islam. Its all a work in progress so we may have similar ideas. It would be useful to better understand the Hadiths and how they relate to the same prophecy.

What are your thoughts about the number 666 in Revelation 13:16-18?




One of the specific prophecies in Islam referred to the Madhi or Qa'im.

Mahdi - Wikipedia



I'm pretty sure that the Madhi is a Shia Muslim idea. I am not aware of such a person in Sunni Islam. Shia are about 5% of the Islamic population, and I'm comfortable in either culture, though I have tried to avoid the Twelvers.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
One of the specific prophecies in Islam referred to the Madhi or Qa'im.

Mahdi - Wikipedia



I'm pretty sure that the Madhi is a Shia Muslim idea. I am not aware of such a person in Sunni Islam. Shia are about 5% of the Islamic population, and I'm comfortable in either culture, though I have tried to avoid the Twelvers.
Look at the link. It says that Sunni Islamists are expecting the Mahdi.
 

ChanaR

Member
People, you can do ANYTHING once you start manipulating numbers, and that's essentially what is happening here is number GAMES.

Muhammed is mentioned no where in the Bible. Period. Neither is Bab.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
It would be interesting to hear from Muslims how they perceive the significance of the year AH 1260/1844 AD with Islamic prophecy. There was certainly a time of intense Meesianic expectation amongst both Muslims and Christians.

For example Christians were expecting the return of Christ and William Miller predicted 1844 as you have alluded to:

400px-2300days.jpg


Actuallly 1844 was considered the great disappointment as his followers so strongly believed 1844 was the year, but I believe they were looking in the wrong places (everywhere but Persia).

William Miller (preacher) - Wikipedia

What did happen that year was The Bab, one of the prophets of my religion (the Baha'i Faith) proclaimed a Message that the promised Day had come. Like Elijah He was preparing the way for One whose Cause would be greater. The man was widely recognised as Baha'u'llah by most of the Babis.

One of the specific prophecies in Islam referred to the Madhi or Qa'im.

Mahdi - Wikipedia

Like you, I'm doing research in this area to further my understanding so perhaps we could be of assistance to one another.

I'm comfortable with an exegesis of the book of Revelation and Daniel and there are important sections that refer to Islam. Its all a work in progress so we may have similar ideas. It would be useful to better understand the Hadiths and how they relate to the same prophecy.

What are your thoughts about the number 666 in Revelation 13:16-18?

Yes indeed, this is of great interest to me, as to how a Muslim will address these findings. I came across this subject first when I read a book and when I researched it on line. I found many sites, blogs and posts dedicated to explaining this subject in detail. Funny enough I also found it on Facebook, on a site called 'the shirt'. Printed on the shirt was AH1260 = AD1844 =BE1.

I watched the SDA Movie to see why they were so excited about 1844. The reasoning to me seemed sound. I was not keen on the reinterpretation after the Big Disappointment and the way the SDA unfolded from that time. As you noted, I think also they needed to change their minds of what and where to look for.

Personally see this is where the Muslim has the quandary. There was expectation, there was an event and the event unfolded in the heart of the Muslim World and it was Muslims that initiated the actions that I have since found resulted in the fulfilment of many more Bible Prophecies. There are bible passages that make reference to the 'end of age' event being east of the holy land. You mentioned Hadith. I have also over the last couple of years started looking at what may be foretold in the Koran and reliable Hadith. It is that search that found many posts over the internet and even on this forum, I see it has been explained in detail.

As to 666, I came across the Baha'i explanation and I saw no reason what it could not be a valid point. I would add that what intrigues me about this number, is that 666 added becomes 18 and 18 added become 9. Thus I also wonder very much as to that connection?

This is all worth discussing if a Muslim does come via this thread and wants to unravel this quandary. I

Peace be with you Adrian and all that visit this thread.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
People, you can do ANYTHING once you start manipulating numbers, and that's essentially what is happening here is number GAMES.

Muhammed is mentioned no where in the Bible. Period. Neither is Bab.

Thank you for visiting and supplying your thoughts. We could discuss that further and I would ask you a question to start that process, if you choose to answer.

It Jesus mentioned in the Tanakh?

The only way you can answer that, would also open the door to further discussion.

Peace be with you ChanaR, and all.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I hope you don't mind me sharing this but as you had mentioned Islam I thought you might be interested in the nineth chapter of the book of revelation. It sets the scene leading up to the nineteenth century as the Islamic dispensation is unfurled. Its an example of a Baha'i exegesis of some of the more challenging biblical verses.

Revelation 9

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.


This prophecy concerns the Muslim invasions of Asian and African Christendom that began about 633 AD. At first, Muslim warriors were noted for their justice and tolerance of other Faiths, such as Christianity and Judaism. Muslim warriors were, however, ferocious fighters against idol worshippers and other enemies of monotheism. It is important to understand that the aggressive invasions of Islam were not instigated by Muhammad but by the Successors (Caliphs) following the death of Muhammad.

The question of the Successorship was the historical origin of the Shi'ah and Sunni divisions of Islam. The first four Caliphs, often called the Rightly-Guided, generally followed the policy laid down by Muhammad. However, according to Shi'a belief, Muhammad had actually chosen His son-in-law, 'Ali, as His Caliph. Although 'Ali later arose to His appointed station, He was assassinated before He could consolidate His power. The caliphate fell to the Umayyad pretender, Mu'awiya, whose father, Abu-Sufyan, was the arch-enemy of Muhammad and His Revelation. The course of political intrigue set in motion by Abu-Sufyan eventually achieved success, and, by beclouding the principles of Islam, Abu-Sufyan became a "fallen star."

The bottomless pit is the pit of error. The smoke arising from the pit symbolizes obscurement. The sun of spiritual truth was dissensions, abrogation of obscured, and the atmosphere of nearness to God was stifled by the smoke.

The scorpion was a quickfirer that permitted rapid discharge of arrows. John describes the plague of mounted warriors as "locusts." The magnificent horses of the Arabian warriors are commemorated in fable. Grass, green things and trees are the commoners, the righteous people and their spiritual leaders. The command not to hurt the righteous was given by Muhammad.

A "month" is 30 years therefore 5 months is 150 years. The Muslim Empire was carved out in a space of about 150 years, from the initial invasions of 633 AD until the peak of the Empire under Caliph Harun ar-Rashid in 786 AD. Verses 7 to 10 describe the appearance of the mounted Arabian warriors (locusts), their quickfirers (scorpions), and the sound of their chariots (wings).

Abaddon and Apollyon mean "The Destroyer" and refer to the Umayyad dynasty personified by Abu-Sufyan.

The woe that is past is the Advent of Muhammad. The two remaining woes are to be the Advents of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Forgive me please. I get a little excited when Islam and the Bible are mentioned, especially in regards to the islamic year AH 1260 or 1844AD.

That was a wow for me, as I am yet to come across that explanation. Could you please supply a source for that explanation? Please forgive me if it is your understanding, as I found that quite humbling spiritually. I am amazed the spirit some people have in unravelling the inner meanings to the outward stories told in the Bible.

I was aware of the three woes and that Muhammad is the 1st, the Bab is the 2nd and Baha'u'llah was the 3rd. That explanation to me is fair and reasonable.

I can see why your excited, it has also been doing that to me over the last few years, each day one wants to jump out of bed to find more wonders :).

Now I have more study, thank you.

Peace be with you and all.
 

ChanaR

Member
Thank you for visiting and supplying your thoughts. We could discuss that further and I would ask you a question to start that process, if you choose to answer.

It Jesus mentioned in the Tanakh?

The only way you can answer that, would also open the door to further discussion.

Peace be with you ChanaR, and all.
No Rabbi Yeshua is not mentioned in the Tanakh. The messiah is mentioned, but not specifically Yeshua. Now how you INTERPRET certain passages may or may not be APPLIED to Rabbi Yeshua. I believe this is the most honest answer.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
The thing that everyone seems to miss is that the only important thing might be that when someone from the Heavenlies, Jesus they say, shows up, will we do as he asks? I intend to.

That, I see, is the quandary we all face. No doubt there is many Jews, Christians, Muslims and people of other Faiths that make the same statement of Faith. That they will submit to God when the end of ages unfolds.

But proving Muhammad is in the Bible, also proves that the event that many people of many faiths await, did happen! Thus all of us that intend to do Gods will, may have become those that then reject God. It could be that Christ, like a thief, has visited us. History has shown that it is not usually the bulk of believers that accept the new message from God. The requirement to be born again comes to mind.

Peace be upon all people.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
This new Revelation of the Bab, is what allows for Muhammad to be proved in the Bible, as it gives us the explanation of the 1260 of Revelation.

Thus the greatest proof of Christ, also confirms Muhammad, but we need the revelation of the Bab to prove it.


I have read over and over your OP trying to conclude what you are pointing at. I quoted these two lines because this is where am having all the trouble. My issue here is the word "allows". If Muhammad peace be upon him was mentioned in the bible and in some way a new revelation proved it, why should I be following the revelation as a whole? Isn't it enough to give credit for shedding light on the subject? Why should one follow it as a whole? I mean the revelation proved something that already existed.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
No Rabbi Yeshua is not mentioned in the Tanakh. The messiah is mentioned, but not specifically Yeshua. Now how you INTERPRET certain passages may or may not be APPLIED to Rabbi Yeshua. I believe this is the most honest answer.

I personally do not interpret scriptures, if I stumble out an explanation, I will say that is my thought. I think Rabbi Yeshua was the one that told us that; "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me". Thus we must consider it is there in some way or another.

What do you know of the names of the messiah? It is good to be cautious.

Peace be with you.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Are you confused about how many times the Messiah has come? Jews believe, "Not at all". Most Christians believe, "Once". Muslims essentially believe, "Once", also.

Muslims believe twice. The first period God raised him.

4:157 And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.


4:158 Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

The second coming will be to kill the false massiah. His coming back will be one of the signs that the day of judgement is drawing near.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
It comes from my experience in seeing people interpret scriptures every which way but up, adding, subtracting, all depending on what they want to get.

Yes this is possible. What we must consider though, is by neglecting to look at all explanations, we may neglect the one that is the key to better understanding. Daniel sealed the scrolls, there was a promise they would be opened at the end of ages.

Peace be with you.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
That, I see, is the quandary we all face. No doubt there is many Jews, Christians, Muslims and people of other Faiths that make the same statement of Faith. That they will submit to God when the end of ages unfolds.

But proving Muhammad is in the Bible, also proves that the event that many people of many faiths await, did happen! Thus all of us that intend to do Gods will, may have become those that then reject God. It could be that Christ, like a thief, has visited us. History has shown that it is not usually the bulk of believers that accept the new message from God. The requirement to be born again comes to mind.

Peace be upon all people.



And here many of us expect Jesus to come riding in on a white horse, carrying a two edged sword, and vanquishing satan. Can both things be true?
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure that the Madhi is a Shia Muslim idea. I am not aware of such a person in Sunni Islam.

Not really.

Al-Imam al-A`zam Abu Hanifah, imam of our school, Imam Hanbal, imam of the Hanbali school, Imam Malik, imam of the Maliki school and Imam Shafi’i, imam of the Shafi’i school, have all stated that the Prophet ‘Isa (as) will return to Earth and that the Mahdi will appear. The imams of these four great schools of the People of the Sunnah are all absolute mujtahids (a scholar who derives rulings). All the other great Islamic scholars in addition to these absolute mujtahids have also stated that Islamic moral values will rule the world in the End Times, that the Prophet ‘Isa (as) will return and that the Mahdi will appear.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Muslims believe twice. The first period God raised him.

4:157 And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.


4:158 Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

The second coming will be to kill the false massiah. His coming back will be one of the signs that the day of judgement is drawing near.


Yes, that is the Islamic point of view, which I do not try to refute. As a student of History, I wonder why the Abrahamic beliefs (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) do not agree? Why does Allah SWT set us against each other to the point of blood shed? Why am I supposed to hate another? Do the major players in history try to USE religion and God to their advantage without either belief or obedience? My only goal is to follow God and obey him.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Not really.

Al-Imam al-A`zam Abu Hanifah, imam of our school, Imam Hanbal, imam of the Hanbali school, Imam Malik, imam of the Maliki school and Imam Shafi’i, imam of the Shafi’i school, have all stated that the Prophet ‘Isa (as) will return to Earth and that the Mahdi will appear. The imams of these four great schools of the People of the Sunnah are all absolute mujtahids (a scholar who derives rulings). All the other great Islamic scholars in addition to these absolute mujtahids have also stated that Islamic moral values will rule the world in the End Times, that the Prophet ‘Isa (as) will return and that the Mahdi will appear.



I was wrong. Sorry. Astigfirallah.
 
Top