Muhammad and the Bible Proofs, an Islamic quandary

[TransmutingSoul]

I was sitting in a Muslim Women's Party, Halaka I believe, when a woman from one of the Gulf countries sat down beside me. She told me that it was a wonderful advantage that I could read, and said that most of the women there could not read, and only knew of the Qur'an what their husbands told them. Foreign Muslim culture here in the US is quite closed to outsiders. I say this to emphasize that many Muslims don't know their own religion.

I've been very closed about baha'i because I don't know anything about it.

It would be a wonderful read about Tahirih then, a disciple of the Bab, most likely the first Islamic women to stand up for modern womens rights, in the age of great suppression of women and who was martyred as a result - Táhirih - Wikipedia

I understand that Baha'i is a challenge, it is for me as well.

Peace be with you.

 

[Milton Platt]

I would have to agree.

I can say that there is a standard to understanding scripture. That standard is the Messenger. So Moses is reliable to explanations prior to his given revelation and reliable as to given prophecy of what is to come. I also consider that is true to Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah.

So if we can see an explanation from them, or to a lesser extent, from a verifiable reliable source attributed to them, then it is worth considering.

Peace be with you

I would take it further. There would have to be multiple independent, verifiable sources outside the bible to accept most anything that is in it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I would take it further. There would have to be multiple independent, verifiable sources outside the bible to accept most anything that is in it.

There are of course multiple verifiable sources. Only a few of them are not Christian as it was the Christains who were much more concerned with maintaining the history of Jesus. Those who were unmoved wouldn't have, and those who opposed Him had no doubt the small group of His followers would dissipate and fade into obscurity after Christ's crucifixion. The NT represents a wealth of information from those who wrote about him during the first century after His death and there was a great deal of quality material to choose from.

Development of the New Testament canon - Wikipedia

Beyond that we have many early Christian writers.

List of early Christian writers - Wikipedia

Outside of Christianity we have Tacitus and Josephus.

Tacitus on Christ - Wikipedia

Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia


Few serious scholars doubt Jesus existed as a person and was baptised and crucified. The crucial questions are then what did He teach and how relaible are the Christian NT books? From the available evidence, very reliable.

 

[Milton Platt]

There are of course multiple verifiable sources. Only a few of them are not Christian as it was the Christains who were much more concerned with maintaining the history of Jesus. Those who were unmoved wouldn't have, and those who opposed Him had no doubt the small group of His followers would dissipate and fade into obscurity after Christ's crucifixion. The NT represents a wealth of information from those who wrote about him during the first century after His death and there was a great deal of quality material to choose from.

Development of the New Testament canon - Wikipedia

Beyond that we have many early Christian writers.

List of early Christian writers - Wikipedia

Outside of Christianity we have Tacitus and Josephus.

Tacitus on Christ - Wikipedia

Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia


Few serious scholars doubt Jesus existed as a person and was baptised and crucified. The crucial questions are then what did He teach and how relaible are the Christian NT books? From the available evidence, very reliable.

Quoting Christian writers who were simply parroting their own beliefs for other believers will not get you any points. That's no different from quoting the Bible.
The passage in Josephus is largely considered to be a forgery added later.
Tacitus was not contemporary with Jesus and was recording what he had been told by others of his time.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Quoting Christian writers who were simply parroting their own beliefs for other believers will not get you any points. That's no different from quoting the Bible.
The passage in Josephus is largely considered to be a forgery added later.
Tacitus was not contemporary with Jesus and was recording what he had been told by others of his time.

I'm not asking for points. It does not matter to me whether you want to seriously examine the evidence or don't.

I'm just pointing to the evidence that exists, much more for any other historic person at the time of Christ.

Would someone who had no interest in Christ's Teachings take the time to write of his history or words? Of course not.

Are you not being prejudiced to known historic characters for no other reason than they happen to be Christian?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm impressed, well done. You have given me a lot to consider above. I need to study in more detail those links.

I have read the Daniel and Revelation explanations of Abdul'baha and I will have to say they resonate with me as I search for what we are to do in this life.

I did come upon a book called 'Thief in the Night' by a William Sears, that was another wow moment for me and started me on further research into 1844. It was that book where I first heard of Muhammad and the Koran. I found these explanations logical as to the Oneness of God. I now have more to digest.

Since I found Muhammad and the Koran are from God. I am extremely interested as to why Muslims overlook these proofs, thus the introduction of this quandary to them.

Peace be with you and all.

On of the major shortcomings of Muslims is they see the Bible as corrupted and will not take the time to study it in light of what they know through the Quran, Hadith, and Sirat.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

On of the major shortcomings of Muslims is they see the Bible as corrupted and will not take the time to study it in light of what they know through the Quran, Hadith, and Sirat.

That is definitely a barrier, is that idea supported by the Koran?

Peace be with you.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That is definitely a barrier, is that idea supported by the Koran?

Peace be with you.

There is nothing in the Quran to support the gospels being corrupted. In fact the gospels are mentioned twelve times in the Quran and seen as being given to Jesus in the same manner the Torah was given to Moses and the Quran to Muhammad. It is the Muslim clergy and scholars who dismiss the gospels as being corrupt as there are contradictory beliefs based on literal interpretations of both scripture.

Gospel in Islam - Wikipedia

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is nothing in the Quran to support the gospels being corrupted. In fact the gospels are mentioned twelve times in the Quran and seen as being given to Jesus in the same manner the Torah was given to Moses and the Quran to Muhammad. It is the Muslim clergy and scholars who dismiss the gospels as being corrupt as there are contradictory beliefs based on literal interpretations of both scripture.

Gospel in Islam - Wikipedia

That in itself, that the Koran quotes Biblical Stories, seems to confirm that Muhammad comfirmed the Bible and its contents.

I guess it has become the doctrine that has become the clouds that Christ returns upon.

Reminds me of the quote you offered in another post;

“Perhaps you hate a thing that is best for you, and you love a thing that is bad for you. Allah knows, while you know not.” – [Quran, 2:216]

Peace be with you.

 

[ChanaR]

Yes this is possible. What we must consider though, is by neglecting to look at all explanations, we may neglect the one that is the key to better understanding. Daniel sealed the scrolls, there was a promise they would be opened at the end of ages.

Peace be with you.

The best book on Revelation I've ever read is this one: Revelation: Four Views, by Steve Gregg. It goes through the book passage by passage, and parses is according to the four different interpretations: Futurist, Historic, Ideaistic, and Partial Preterist. The Preterist interpretation is particularly interesting.
https://www.amazon.com/Revelation-P...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=GRPADBYBZG532Q83YNMT

 

[Milton Platt]

I'm not asking for points. It does not matter to me whether you want to seriously examine the evidence or don't.

I'm just pointing to the evidence that exists, much more for any other historic person at the time of Christ.

Would someone who had no interest in Christ's Teachings take the time to write of his history or words? Of course not.

Are you not being prejudiced to known historic characters for no other reason than they happen to be Christian?

Nope. I'm disputing your assertion that there is "more evidence for Jesus than any other person in his time" though. Go ahead and present it. You don't have to do anything more than post links. Use scholarly papers, though, not magazine articles from Christian magazines.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The best book on Revelation I've ever read is this one: Revelation: Four Views, by Steve Gregg. It goes through the book passage by passage, and parses is according to the four different interpretations: Futurist, Historic, Ideaistic, and Partial Preterist. The Preterist interpretation is particularly interesting.
https://www.amazon.com/Revelation-P...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=GRPADBYBZG532Q83YNMT

I note that there are You Tube Videos on this book.

Can I please ask if Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah mentioned in this book?

Peace be with you

 

[ChanaR]

I note that there are You Tube Videos on this book.

Can I please ask if Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah mentioned in this book?

Peace be with you

The Historicist view only considers the 5th and 6th trumpets to be the rise of Islam. It's not considered a nice thing.

It's my roommate who is heavy into this book. I've just kind of glossed over it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Nope. I'm disputing your assertion that there is "more evidence for Jesus than any other person in his time" though. Go ahead and present it. You don't have to do anything more than post links. Use scholarly papers, though, not magazine articles from Christian magazines.

Sources for Caesar and Jesus Compared

You may want to consider the historic evidence for another person in the first century and see how the evidence stacks up.

1st century - Wikipedia

Just to get you started lets try Caligula.

Caligula - Wikipedia

 

[Milton Platt]

Sources for Caesar and Jesus Compared

You may want to consider the historic evidence for another person in the first century and see how the evidence stacks up.

1st century - Wikipedia

Just to get you started lets try Caligula.

Caligula - Wikipedia

The problem is that you cannot include stories from the bible. It was not intended to be and is not an historical account. It is full of events that have no basis in history or reality. You need sufficient outside sources, and you don't have them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The problem is that you cannot include stories from the bible. It was not intended to be and is not an historical account. It is full of events that have no basis in history or reality. You need sufficient outside sources, and you don't have them.

The purpose of the OP was that the Bible includes the Message of Muhammad.

Thus we now have adequate Islamic and Christain and Baha'i history recorded, that we can compare against Bible Prophecy.

Are these Historical events recorded in the Bible, in the Prophecies?

Now the tricky bit, the language describes material events in Spiritual Metaphor.

Peace be with you.

 

[Neuropteron]

Now we can understand why William Miller was excited when He got 1844 from other Daniel prophecies, no doubt he would have been much more excited if he had know this fact.

It appears the key is excepting this is the question, "is Islam expecting any promised returns". To which it is, both Sunni and Shia......interesting!

Peace be upon you and all.

Many claims have made claim of miraculous patterns occurring in the text of sacred texts.
The following challenge was made by Michael Drosnina numerologist)

When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby Dick, I'll believe them.
(Newsweek, Jun 9, 1997)

The critics of numerology, went further, they shoved that using the techniques of numerology Moby dick could prophecy anything that took your fancy.

Using numerology Moby Dick prophesied the death of following people:

Indira Gandi
President Rene Moawad
Leon Trotsky
Martin Luther King
Engelbert Dollfuss
John F.Kennedy
Abraham Lincoln
Princess Diana

I'm afraid William Miller got excited over a mathematical sleight of hand.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Many claims have made claim of miraculous patterns occurring in the text of sacred texts.
The following challenge was made by Michael Drosnina numerologist)

When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby Dick, I'll believe them.
(Newsweek, Jun 9, 1997)

The critics of numerology, went further, they shoved that using the techniques of numerology Moby dick could prophecy anything that took your fancy.

Using numerology Moby Dick prophesied the death of following people:

Indira Gandi
President Rene Moawad
Leon Trotsky
Martin Luther King
Engelbert Dollfuss
John F.Kennedy
Abraham Lincoln
Princess Diana

I'm afraid William Miller got excited over a mathematical sleight of hand.

These were not Numerology calculations. These are actual numbers quoted with only a new way to look at them using biblical passages.

Thus the starting date is known as BC457

The time from there is wrtitten in Daniel as 2300 days, which we know becomes years.

That comes to 1844 as there is no year zero. That is straight Maths.

1260 days is written plainly and in year and month form, knowing from the Bible that a biblical year is 360 days with months of 30 days.

1260 also becomes years and is mentioned in Daniel and Revelation.

AH1260 is also AD1844. No numerology needed.

Peace be with you.

 

[Milton Platt]

The purpose of the OP was that the Bible includes the Message of Muhammad.

Thus we now have adequate Islamic and Christain and Baha'i history recorded, that we can compare against Bible Prophecy.

Are these Historical events recorded in the Bible, in the Prophecies?

Now the tricky bit, the language describes material events in Spiritual Metaphor.

Peace be with you.

The fact that historical events that can be confirmed by other independent means may be included in a book does not guarantee the rest of the claims in the book are correct. Much past and modern fiction has historical events within the book, but the book is still fictional.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The fact that historical events that can be confirmed by other independent means may be included in a book does not guarantee the rest of the claims in the book are correct. Much past and modern fiction has historical events within the book, but the book is still fictional.

That is the choice we have all been given. That is the most great bounty we can have, choice.

A rock has no choice. Both vegitable and animal can not break free of the natural laws. Man alone on this earth has been given that capacity.

Peace be with you