Muhammad and the Bible Proofs, an Islamic quandary

[Sabour]

I wonder why the Abrahamic beliefs (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) do not agree?

The islamic understanding is that these all shared the same idea of which is worshiping God and associating to partners to Him. As such Moses, Jesus , and Muhammad peace be upon him were messengers who shared this same message. They received revelation which are Torah, Injeel and Quraan respectively. Not only these were the prophets. According to some hadith there were approx 124000 prophets who were send by God.

Now without getting into details, the difference is that we consider Muhammad peace be upon him to be the last messenger of God and believe the Quraan to be the last revelation. The injeel received by Jesus peace be upon him is not the same as the bible we see today for it has been tempered with but of course it has some truth in it.

This is for us the reason between the similarities between judaism christianity and islam.

Why does Allah SWT set us against each other to the point of blood shed?

It is not Allah who put us against each other, it is us who do. I often wonder where ISIS got their version of islam.

Why am I supposed to hate another?

I don't believe that there exists a religion which teaches that. It is only the human nature.

To make things clear


60:8 Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

Do the major players in history try to USE religion and God to their advantage without either belief or obedience?

You mean trying to make religion to say what it doesn't and covering their real motives behind religious reasons?

ALWAYSS

My only goal is to follow God and obey him.

I sincerely hope you find what you are looking for

 

[Sabour]

I was wrong. Sorry. Astigfirallah.

Yeah I noticed one of the brothers on the forums responded. I read it after I had replied already.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have read over and over your OP trying to conclude what you are pointing at. I quoted these two lines because this is where am having all the trouble. My issue here is the word "allows". If Muhammad peace be upon him was mentioned in the bible and in some way a new revelation proved it, why should I be following the revelation as a whole? Isn't it enough to give credit for shedding light on the subject? Why should one follow it as a whole? I mean the revelation proved something that already existed.

Thank you Sabour, great to have you here. I used allowed, but I could use better words, I was not the best at English. I could have said the Bab's message provided a Key that unlocks further understanding.

Muhammad, peace be upon him, said there was no compulsion in religion, I think that answers your question.

When you say "the revelation proved something that already existed". That is saying revelation of the Bab proves biblical prophecy about Muhammad is sound.

That is what I see as the quandary as it was the Muslims in the time of the Bab that tried to extinguish all mention of it from the face of the earth. In fact I subscribe to news coming out of Iran and they still try to exterminate all mention of this Faith. By doing this they are unable to use this proof, it means they are saying 1260 had no significance.

Peace be upon Muhammad, peace be upon you and all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And here many of us expect Jesus to come riding in on a white horse, carrying a two edged sword, and vanquishing satan. Can both things be true?

I see that prophecy has certain limited outward material fulfilments and many spiritual fulfilments. It is accepting the spiritual aspect, that us allows to see the material unfolding. I see each time that Christ has come to this world, as Christ was the first and will be the last, it is Christ come with all power and all glory. There is a New Heaven and a New Earth with each revelation.

Thus the Truth is what God reveals to us, not what we hope, or have come to expect, will be revealed to us.

Peace be with you.

 

[Sabour]

Thank you Sabour, great to have you here. I used allowed, but I could use better words, I was not the best at English. I could have said the Bab's message provided a Key that unlocks further understanding.

Muhammad, peace be upon him, said there was no compulsion in religion, I think that answers your question.

When you say "the revelation proved something that already existed". That is saying revelation of the Bab proves biblical prophecy about Muhammad is sound.

That is what I see as the quandary as it was the Muslims in the time of the Bab that tried to extinguish all mention of it from the face of the earth. In fact I subscribe to news coming out of Iran and they still try to exterminate all mention of this Faith. By doing this they are unable to use this proof, it means they are saying 1260 had no significance.

Peace be upon Muhammad, peace be upon you and all.

I don't know if that would be of any significance, but I have come across many people that refer to many verses in the bible saying they talk about the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

English is not my native language so I pay extra attention to the use of words so I can better understand the members.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not really.

Al-Imam al-A`zam Abu Hanifah, imam of our school, Imam Hanbal, imam of the Hanbali school, Imam Malik, imam of the Maliki school and Imam Shafi’i, imam of the Shafi’i school, have all stated that the Prophet ‘Isa (as) will return to Earth and that the Mahdi will appear. The imams of these four great schools of the People of the Sunnah are all absolute mujtahids (a scholar who derives rulings). All the other great Islamic scholars in addition to these absolute mujtahids have also stated that Islamic moral values will rule the world in the End Times, that the Prophet ‘Isa (as) will return and that the Mahdi will appear.

This is the quandary. This is the significance of the Bab and 1844 and the purpose of the Bab was to prepared the way for the One whom God would make Manifest.

So in this case the Prophet ‘Isa (as) would be the Bab and the Mahdi was Baha'u'llah. I am finding the proofs for this to be the case, are overwhelming.

Peace be with you.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Yeah I noticed one of the brothers on the forums responded. I read it after I had replied already.

Mashallah. I hope that we get to talk from time to time.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The islamic understanding is that these all shared the same idea of which is worshiping God and associating to partners to Him. As such Moses, Jesus , and Muhammad peace be upon him were messengers who shared this same message. They received revelation which are Torah, Injeel and Quraan respectively. Not only these were the prophets. According to some hadith there were approx 124000 prophets who were send by God.

Now without getting into details, the difference is that we consider Muhammad peace be upon him to be the last messenger of God and believe the Quraan to be the last revelation. The injeel received by Jesus peace be upon him is not the same as the bible we see today for it has been tempered with but of course it has some truth in it.

This is for us the reason between the similarities between judaism christianity and islam.

It is not Allah who put us against each other, it is us who do. I often wonder where ISIS got their version of islam.

I don't believe that there exists a religion which teaches that. It is only the human nature.

To make things clear

60:8 Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

You mean trying to make religion to say what it doesn't and covering their real motives behind religious reasons?

ALWAYSS

I sincerely hope you find what you are looking for

I enjoyed that post well done Sabour. It shows a purity in Faith.

I personally have a different understanding to what the Seal of the Prophets may mean. I do not believe it means God will not or can not send more Messengers, Gods hands are not Chained.

5:64(Yusuf Ali): The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.

Peace be with you.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I don't know if that would be of any significance, but I have come across many people that refer to many verses in the bible saying they talk about the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

English is not my native language so I pay extra attention to the use of words so I can better understand the members.

In my heart I am Muslim, though perhaps not a good one because of my many questions around how Issa PBUH is seen in Judaism, Islam and Christianity. I am fearful because I know that questions in that area can be seen as Shirk. I've been told that Muhammad PBUH taught kindness to the people of the Book. I'm assuming that meant they accepted perhaps the first five books, or Torah. In what Christians call the first book, Genesis 16, it talks about Hagar, and Ishmael and many think that Ishmael's ancestor Muhammad started Islam.

So much of what I read about Judaism, Islam and Christianity seems false, so in my old years, I work on figuring that out.

 

[Sabour]

I enjoyed that post well done Sabour. It shows a purity in Faith.

I personally have a different understanding to what the Seal of the Prophets may mean. I do not believe it means God will not or can not send more Messengers, Gods hands are not Chained.

5:64(Yusuf Ali): The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.

Peace be with you.

Thank you!

In my understandings, there are implicit statements and explicit statements. The verse you mentioned is an explicit statement for me. The seal of prophets does mean the last of prophets. For me that is evident in the Arabic language.

As for "Gods hands are not chained" that is true. However if God doesn't do something it doesn't mean that God is incapable of doing it or that His hands are chained. It is simply the will of God for something not to happen.

For example, I can't say that God is incapable and His hands are chained if he didn't send me a million dollars from the sky just . It is all by his will that God doesn't do that. Similarly for me it is up to God to decide if he wants to send prophets or he wants Muhammad to be the last prophet in islam.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In my heart I am Muslim, though perhaps not a good one because of my many questions around how Issa PBUH is seen in Judaism, Islam and Christianity. I am fearful because I know that questions in that area can be seen as Shirk. I've been told that Muhammad PBUH taught kindness to the people of the Book. I'm assuming that meant they accepted perhaps the first five books, or Torah. In what Christians call the first book, Genesis 16, it talks about Hagar, and Ishmael and many think that Ishmael's ancestor Muhammad started Islam.

So much of what I read about Judaism, Islam and Christianity seems false, so in my old years, I work on figuring that out.

That is a post from the heart. God guides us all. Many passages in the Koran about guidance, I liked this one;

“We sent down the Qur’an in truth, and in truth has it descended: And we sent thee but to give glad tidings and to warn (mankind).” Sura Bani-Israel, verse 105

Peace be with you. May God be the source of all your choices.

 

[Sabour]

In my heart I am Muslim, though perhaps not a good one because of my many questions around how Issa PBUH is seen in Judaism, Islam and Christianity. I am fearful because I know that questions in that area can be seen as Shirk. I've been told that Muhammad PBUH taught kindness to the people of the Book. I'm assuming that meant they accepted perhaps the first five books, or Torah. In what Christians call the first book, Genesis 16, it talks about Hagar, and Ishmael and many think that Ishmael's ancestor Muhammad started Islam.

So much of what I read about Judaism, Islam and Christianity seems false, so in my old years, I work on figuring that out.

Quraan always invites you to think, reflect and reason with your mind. For that reason, I don't see a problem in researching and wanting to know more as long as you are sincere about it. Of course you will find some muslims who say otherwise and I don't know which is right. But I do know that the most important thing is to surrender for the truth when you find it ( that is if you had to unlike if you are just trying to search out of curiosity).

I advise you to ask God to guide you in your research to find the right answers and to keep doing that every now and than. Perhaps you also want to ask Him to give you a better work or job or patience or I dont know .....

Just keep up the connection

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thank you!

In my understandings, there are implicit statements and explicit statements. The verse you mentioned is an explicit statement for me. The seal of prophets does mean the last of prophets. For me that is evident in the Arabic language.

As for "Gods hands are not chained" that is true. However if God doesn't do something it doesn't mean that God is incapable of doing it or that His hands are chained. It is simply the will of God for something not to happen.

For example, I can't say that God is incapable and His hands are chained if he didn't send me a million dollars from the sky just . It is all by his will that God doesn't do that. Similarly for me it is up to God to decide if he wants to send prophets or he wants Muhammad to be the last prophet in islam.

I admire that you are looking deep into the Word of God.

I can offer that Muhammad has confirmed God has sent His Messengers since Adam and from Adam to the Seal of the Prophets, Muhammad, peace be upon him.

I like to consider that all these Messages offered future Prophecy about the promised day, when the One and Only God would bring Gods way to this earth, the victory will happen.

Thus the age of Prophecy is complete and sealed by Muhammad, all now wait the age of fulfilment of the promises. I would then offer our One God hands, unchained and unconstrained will give us Messengers, the ones we await, that will give guidance on how to implement that fulfilment.

Peace be upon you and all.

 

[Ellen Brown]

That is a post from the heart. God guides us all. Many passages in the Koran about guidance, I liked this one;

“We sent down the Qur’an in truth, and in truth has it descended: And we sent thee but to give glad tidings and to warn (mankind).” Sura Bani-Israel, verse 105

Peace be with you. May god be the source of all your choices.

Mashallah. Thank you.

 

[Dawnofhope]

People, you can do ANYTHING once you start manipulating numbers, and that's essentially what is happening here is number GAMES.

Muhammed is mentioned no where in the Bible. Period. Neither is Bab.

Its easy to turn revelation into an apocalytic fiction about all manner of nonsense that will happen in the future from the rapture to the non-believers having the mark of the beast stamped on their forehead. Connecting the verses with known history is an entirely different proposition.

The Christian apologetics have provided an exegesis of Daniel 11:1-35 for example. These verses provide a narrative of known history concerning the Babylonian, Persian,and Greek empires in regards the land the Hebrew people considered Holy.

Enduring Word Bible Commentary Daniel Chapter 11

The narrative in regards the text of Daniel and known history is so compelling that most skeptics argue Daniel was written after the events, rather than a prophecy of things to come.

Book of Daniel - Wikipedia

The Baha'is have extended the narrative to include the rise and fall of Islam. They did occupy the Holy land for much of the time from the seventh to nineteenth century after all.

The prophetic books are there for good reason. Its to enable the peoples of the new revelation to provide a proof by unravelling the mysteries of the old.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That was a wow for me, as I am yet to come across that explanation. Could you please supply a source for that explanation? Please forgive me if it is your understanding, as I found that quite humbling spiritually. I am amazed the spirit some people have in unravelling the inner meanings to the outward stories told in the Bible.

I was aware of the three woes and that Muhammad is the 1st, the Bab is the 2nd and Baha'u'llah was the 3rd. That explanation to me is fair and reasonable.

I can see why your excited, it has also been doing that to me over the last few years, each day one wants to jump out of bed to find more wonders .

Now I have more study, thank you.

Peace be with you and all.

The exegesis would best be described as 'Baha'i inspired'. Its a work of Baha'i scholarship rather than quoting from the Baha'i sacred writings.

Abdu'l-Baha was leader of the Baha'i Faith from 1892 to 1921, and when pilgrims from the West visiting him in Akka that was part of Palestine in the early twentieth century, He explained about who Muhammad was to pilgrims from a Christian background that had little familiarity with Islam.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 18-24

Through a series of informal chats He provided a comprehensive commentary on the 11th and 12th chapters of the book of revelation.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72

This led Baha'is and scholars such as myself to provide commentary on the remaining verses.

The governing body of the Baha'i Faith, the Universal House of Justice indicated that although there were no sacred writings that covered some of the verses, Baha'is were free to investigate the truth of the matter themselves and draw their own conclusions.

"Except for what has been explained by Bahá'u'lláh and ‘Abdu'l-Bahá, we have no way of knowing what various symbolic allusions in the Bible mean."It is clear from the Guardian's statement that we can be sure of the exact meaning of only such passages as have been authoritatively interpreted in our Writings. In time absence of any authoritative interpretation, the individual is free to draw his or her own conclusions about the meaning of the verses and prophecies. Some examples of individual interpretations include: Ruth J. Moffett, "New Keys to the Book of Revelation".

New Delhi: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1977.
Robert F. Riggs, "Apocalypse Unsealed". New York: Philosophical Library, 1981.

Biblical Verses, Interpretation of

I have therefore studied the works of Robert Riggs and others to provide a narrative based on my individual interpretation. While it is simply my opinion and best guess, I have considered carefully known history, biblical scholarship, and Baha'i scholarship.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The exegesis would best be described as 'Baha'i inspired'. Its a work of Baha'i scholarship rather than quoting from the Baha'i sacred writings.

Abdu'l-Baha was leader of the Baha'i Faith from 1892 to 1921, and when pilgrims from the West visiting him in Akka that was part of Palestine in the early twentieth century, He explained about who Muhammad was to pilgrims from a Christian background that had little familiarity with Islam.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 18-24

Through a series of informal chats He provided a comprehensive commentary on the 11th and 12th chapters of the book of revelation.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72

This led Baha'is and scholars such as myself to provide commentary on the remaining verses.

The governing body of the Baha'i Faith, the Universal House of Justice indicated that although there were no sacred writings that covered some of the verses, Baha'is were free to investigate the truth of the matter themselves and draw their own conclusions.

"Except for what has been explained by Bahá'u'lláh and ‘Abdu'l-Bahá, we have no way of knowing what various symbolic allusions in the Bible mean."It is clear from the Guardian's statement that we can be sure of the exact meaning of only such passages as have been authoritatively interpreted in our Writings. In time absence of any authoritative interpretation, the individual is free to draw his or her own conclusions about the meaning of the verses and prophecies. Some examples of individual interpretations include: Ruth J. Moffett, "New Keys to the Book of Revelation".

New Delhi: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1977.
Robert F. Riggs, "Apocalypse Unsealed". New York: Philosophical Library, 1981.

Biblical Verses, Interpretation of

I have therefore studied the works of Robert Riggs and others to provide a narrative based on my individual interpretation. While it is simply my opinion and best guess, I have considered carefully known history, biblical scholarship, and Baha'i scholarship.

I'm impressed, well done. You have given me a lot to consider above. I need to study in more detail those links.

I have read the Daniel and Revelation explanations of Abdul'baha and I will have to say they resonate with me as I search for what we are to do in this life.

I did come upon a book called 'Thief in the Night' by a William Sears, that was another wow moment for me and started me on further research into 1844. It was that book where I first heard of Muhammad and the Koran. I found these explanations logical as to the Oneness of God. I now have more to digest.

Since I found Muhammad and the Koran are from God. I am extremely interested as to why Muslims overlook these proofs, thus the introduction of this quandary to them.

Peace be with you and all.

 

[Milton Platt]

I say Muhammad is a Messenger from God and the Koran was revelation from God, a miracle indeed. Am I a Muslim?

I also see that is the same God that Christ gave a Message from. Am I a Christian?

I see names become a barrier and as I have no intenet to push a Faith upon any person, I am here to talk about and find a unity of purpose that I find in all.

I came across this quandry in my study of faiths based in God. I have not yet looked in any detail at faiths that do not have God.

Thus if Muhammad can be proved in detail from both Daniel and Revelation by using the date of 1844/1260 where the declaration of the Bab took place, that is a quandry. First for a Muslim who may have developed a doctrine that there will be no more messengers and likewise a Christian that has a doctrine that after Christ there will be no other.

I see a rejection pattern, in the claim of finality against a history where God doeth as He Willeth by sending more and more Messengers.

Peace be upon Muhammad, you and all.

Unless Muhammad is specifically mentioned in the Bible (and he is not), then all you have is speculation.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I'm impressed, well done. You have given me a lot to consider above. I need to study in more detail those links.

I have read the Daniel and Revelation explanations of Abdul'baha and I will have to say they resonate with me as I search for what we are to do in this life.

I did come upon a book called 'Thief in the Night' by a William Sears, that was another wow moment for me and started me on further research into 1844. It was that book where I first heard of Muhammad and the Koran. I found these explanations logical as to the Oneness of God. I now have more to digest.

Since I found Muhammad and the Koran are from God. I am extremely interested as to why Muslims overlook these proofs, thus the introduction of this quandary to them.

Peace be with you and all.

I was sitting in a Muslim Women's Party, Halaka I believe, when a woman from one of the Gulf countries sat down beside me. She told me that it was a wonderful advantage that I could read, and said that most of the women there could not read, and only knew of the Qur'an what their husbands told them. Foreign Muslim culture here in the US is quite closed to outsiders. I say this to emphasize that many Muslims don't know their own religion.

I've been very closed about baha'i because I don't know anything about it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Unless Muhammad is specifically mentioned in the Bible (and he is not), then all you have is speculation.

I would have to agree.

I can say that there is a standard in understanding scripture. That standard is the Messenger. So Moses is reliable to explanations prior to his given revelation and reliable as to given prophecy of what is to come. I also consider that is true to Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah.

So if we can see an explanation from them, or to a lesser extent, from a verifiable reliable source attributed to them, then it is worth considering.

Peace be with you