Muhammad The Greatest: A comparative study

[ProudMuslim]

If a Woman is raped in Pakistan but cannot produce four witnesses to the fact she will be tried for adultery and stoned to death,it is a hideous and inhuman punishment for something that isn't life threatening.

I am a strong believer in that stonning to death is not Islamic at all, but give me a break.If the woman could not produce the 4 witnesses to support her rape claim how could she be stonned to death when 4 witnesses are also required to have witnesses the actual sexual intercourse?? See this does not make any sense.

Many non-Muslims like to exaggerate muslim women "suffering". You do realise that every punishment defined in Qurán is for BOTH genders. Yes in some parts of the world women are being mistreated and many of them are Islamic nations. But Islam has in fact honored women, has given women rights she never had before and just because some Muslim men chose to abide by their sick traditions (e.g. honor killing) over Islam does not mean Islam should be blamed. No one is blaming Christianity for some Monks pedophilia or Nuns' harsh treatment of girls in religious boarding schools, no one is blaming Hindusim for some Monks request of boiling the hands of female villagers to prove their fidelity, or marrying young girls to men or even animals etc. Why single out Islam?

 

[ProudMuslim]

Twenty-eight Meccans were killed in the taking of Mecca, and many others fled.

So those 28 were non-combatants? You do realize Mecca gad more than 28 people, s before you jump to the "they were innocents"wagen, please explain to me why out of the entire population 28 got killed? Of course if this is an authentic info to begin with.

This is very simple: killing is wrong. This wasn't self-defense; it was aggression. The fact that the Meccans kicked out Muhammed doesn't justify murder.

Well he never murdered any innocent man, that is for sure as shown in the message of Qurán and supported by ancient texts.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: It's horrible if someone tries to defend their lives from danger? Perhaps you don't cherish your life but to fault a muslim for cherishing theirs is absurd.

How on earth did you get that from my post? What is horrible is a mob killing an innocent Belgian man because a Danish newspaper printed a cartoon they didn't like, or jailing a teacher because one of her students gave their teddy bear the wrong name. Please explain to me how a Teddy Bear's name can endanger someone's life. Or how an innocent Belgian man endangers your life, when he had nothing to do with anything other than being European.

 

[gnostic]

I am a strong believer in that stonning to death is not Islamic at all, but give me a break.If the woman could not produce the 4 witnesses to support her rape claim how could she be stonned to death when 4 witnesses are also required to have witnesses the actual sexual intercourse?? See this does not make any sense.

Which doesn't even make more sense to non-Muslims looking at the law from outside.

Seriously, if a woman can produce 4 male witnesses, couldn't four men stop the rape taking in the 1st place?

You would think yes.

And you want to know what the most disgusting thing about the law, they any rape victim seemed to be treated no better than adulteresses, and are treated as criminals instead of the victim, when they go to the police to report the rape. The words of a rapist (or gang-rapists) have far more weights than that of the victims.

The case of couple years ago where the girl was gang-raped, the law treated her as a criminal, because she went out unescorted. Worse that the village elders gave these rapists permission to rape her. And both the court and village elders used Islam to punish the girl. She is punished by her community with rape and punished again be the law court.

That's the sort of sick culture you have. The law is oppressive, because the religious factor is involved that see the women are no better than slaves or animals. Men and women are certainly not treating as equal in the eyes of the law, of the community and of the religion.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Apart from creating a new religion based on older religions, did he really did something better than all of those figures above.

We believe ALL prophets came for the same reason. Islam is a successor of the previous Abrahamic religions, we don't deny that. We believe Islam came to restore the true message of Abrahamic faiths which is to worship the One and Only God. Our Sharia Law resembles alot the Halakah (Jewish Law) but we have some difference that we consider is better. For example don't humanize God, we think All prophets were great humans and none commit any intentional sin/mistake. Also, Islam gave women rights that were not given to women previously such as the right to study Qurán, right to discuss and debate, right to educate, right to choose and marry and divorce her husband, right to inherit, right to not spend one penny on her husband, right to keep her name after marriage, and many rights. So to say Islam resembles other Abrahamic religions is one thing and we all agree with and never deny. But to say it did not come up with new rules that are considered better to Muslims is not correct at all.

I don't think he did. And he certainly didn't help the Jews. He made wars upon them and had them massacred, because they couldn't accept him as being a prophet. That to me, sounds more like a great warlord than a prophet. A man who think about achieving greatness, can never be the greatest, especially when you use swords and fear upon the neighbours.

You are right only if this was true. I have to say this whole story of how Muhammed (PBUH) persecuted the Jews for not believing in him is pure anti-Islamic propoganda and appalling accusation. Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) never harmed the peaceful Jews in fact they were considered as "People of the Book" just like the Christians, their teachings were respected among their followers and they were protected just like the rest of Muslim. Please get educated about the "wars"you are talking about. The whole accusation revolve around the "persecution"of 3 Jewish tribes when in fact those tribes were masterminded treason and breaking of convenant with the Muslims during the battles with the unbelievers. You can read the event here

Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) ordered Muslims not to cut a tree or kill a goat unnecessarily in the times of wars, would he allow the killing of non-Muslims? In Islam, Muslim men can marry Jewish and Christian women (if the agreed) so if we were not to take them as friend or encouraged to kill them, why would Islam allow the marriage between a Muslim and a Christian/Jewish and more importantly why would Islam allow Muslim chidren to have non-Muslim mothers? I

 

[ProudMuslim]

Seriously, if a woman can produce 4 male witnesses, couldn't four men stop the rape taking in the 1st place?You would think yes.

Of course. But then the whole 4 witnesses are for the adultery and not for the rape. I know you will say some countries apply it for rape but i am talking about Islamic doctrine here.

And you want to know what the most disgusting thing about the law, they any rape victim seemed to be treated no better than adulteresses, and are treated as criminals instead of the victim, when they go to the police to report the rape. The words of a rapist (or gang-rapists) have far more weights than that of the victims.

I agree with you to some degree. But i totally dont agree that the word of the raped girl should be taken as 100% accurate. You have to look at the incident from two point of view. The girl might accuse someone falsely, we know such things happened in the past and are still happening. She could have slept with him and then decided to accuse him of raping her and added few bruises to herself to support her claim. This kind of crimes are very sensitive and should not be about sympathy but looking for facts.

That's the sort of sick culture you have. The law is oppressive, because the religious factor is involved that see the women are no better than slaves or animals. Men and women are certainly not treating as equal in the eyes of the law, of the community and of the religion.

You have gone random now and generalising. My religion does not treat women as inferior to men, we acknowledges both genders are equal but different and with their differences comes different obligations and respobsibilities. I am a woman and most Muslim members in this forum are females, that says alot about Islam's view of women. Again our culture is not any more sicker than yours, as in just like some Islamic countries treat women as second citizens some western countries treat women like objects and sex toys. The fact is there is no such thing as Muslim culture, we have over 100 countries each with their own code of laws. Just two weeks ago two Saudi male policemen were sentenced to death after raping an Asian maid, the same happens in many Islamic countries like Kuwait and UAE where rapists punishment is death. That's why it is not about her word vs his word, it is about finding facts because rapist might be sentenced to death if he got convicted.

 

[gnostic]

Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) ordered Muslims not to cut a tree or kill a goat unnecessarily in the times of wars, would he allow the killing of non-Muslims? In Islam, Muslim men can marry Jewish and Christian women (if the agreed) so if we were not to take them as friend or encouraged to kill them, why would Islam allow the marriage between a Muslim and a Christian/Jewish and more importantly why would Islam allow Muslim chidren to have non-Muslim mothers?

This absolute nonsense.

Yes, Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women, but they have prohibited Muslim women from marry non-Muslim men. How is that fair?

And then there many cases, where non-Muslim women decided divorce. In the Western society, the women usually get the custody of the children, regardless of race or religion. Muslim men have no respect for our law, abduct the children and go to a Muslim country, so that the ex-wives would never see their children again. If the women did the same thing, abducting the children and bring them back to the country they were born, what do you think the Islamic law would do to the women? No, your law is not fair, and will never fair to the women, because they have less right, especially if they divorce their Muslim husbands. It's ok for Muslim ex-husband to break the law, but not ok if she break the law to get her children back. It is disgustingly unfair and oppressive law.

 

[Gharib]

This absolute nonsense.

are peacefull and truthfull words nonsense to you in any way?

Yes, Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women, but they have prohibited Muslim women from marry non-Muslim men. How is that fair?

the children of a couple usually take more of the fathers side (ie the fathers footsteps) and thus a muslim woman is not allowed to mary a non muslim man because her children will/ may very well become non muslim.

 

[gnostic]

You have gone random now and generalising. My religion does not treat women as inferior to men, we acknowledges both genders are equal but different and with their differences comes different obligations and respobsibilities. I am a woman and most Muslim members in this forum are females, that says alot about Islam's view of women.

Hence it is unfair.

You yourself have just contradict yourself about both genders being equal. There's no equality if completely different rules applied to different gender.

are peacefull and truthfull words nonsense to you in any way?

It really depends on what you mean by truthful. Truth from Muslim is not the same as truth from a Christian. A truth of believers does not mean the same things as the non-believers. Non-believers required more evidences and facts than just truth.

You believe that the djinn existed, hence your truth. I, on the other hand, believed that this djinn is just nothing more than fable or mythical being, and there are no evidences of their existence, hence my truth is nothing than fairytale.

Have you seen one? Can you prove to me that they exist?

If you haven't and if you can't then your truth is different to mine.

the children of a couple usually take more of the fathers side (ie the fathers footsteps) and thus a muslim woman is not allowed to mary a non muslim man because her children will/ may very well become non muslim.

Hence is the inequality of the two genders in Islam.

What if a Muslim woman falls in love with non-Muslim man? Is really any business of yours or that of the religion whether they marry or not? Must she then be forced to marry old Muslim man that she doesn't love?

It's hopelessly oppressive with stupid archaic rules, laws, and worse customs. There's certainly no equality here. People who adhere to such primitive tradition showed that Islam can't grow. Unchanging society will only stagnated.

If a Muslim woman can't marry a non-Muslim, then the same rule should apply to Muslim men. Otherwise there law should be discarded, and Muslim women should freely able to marry non-Muslim men just like the way Muslim men do.

 

[Gharib]

Hence it is unfair.
You yourself have just contradict yourself about both genders being equal. There's no equality if completely different rules applied to different gender.

you haven't understood her point, both genders are equal but different at the same time. men and women are equal at say sexual relations, but the man doesn't give birth, the woman does. so what you are saying is that both genders need to be able to give birth in order to be equal. so a man and a woman cannot be equal according to you right because men can't give birth.

It really depends on what you mean by truthful. Truth from Muslim is not the same as truth from a Christian. A truth of believers does not mean the same things as the non-believers. Non-believers required more evidences and facts than just truth.

so isn't the truth a fact? the truth is the same no matter who says it, and we cannot say the truth according to what we beleive, if so then there would be the truth that you speak of (meaning there would be no true truth), but that is not the case. i am a muslim you are not, the sky is blue in a sunny day. do you agree or do you not?

You believe that the djinn existed, hence your truth. I, on the other hand, believed that this djinn is just nothing more than fable or mythical being, and there are no evidences of their existence, hence my truth is nothing than fairytale.

yes your truth is a fairy tale because you have admitted it, i have not said my belief is a tale cos i've never said it.
the jinn do exist, if they did not then why are people (non muslim) claiming that a devil possesed them into commiting sinn. you your self said that the truth of a muslim is not the same as the truth of a christian and yet both parties seem to agree that the jinn and devil exist.

Have you seen one? Can you prove to me that they exist?

no i haven't seen one in it's original form, but i may have seen it after the transormation. i've had a jinn in me. it paralised half of my bodie, utill it was removed.
are you willing to accept my word though and are you truthfull in that which you are going to say? i can show it to you right now but i need to get your word on it that you will accept it. i've always been telling people the truth and have been showing them the truth only so they can throw it back at my face. if that wich you say is the real truth and you are truthfull in that wich you say then i will prove to you that they exist, but if you come up saying it is a lie then there will be no need to go any further.

If you haven't and if you can't then your truth is different to mine.

yes your's at the moment is different to mine. however, if you wish to accept that, that which i tell you with support from facts is the truth then and only then will you and i be saying the real truth, with no distinguishment of religion or belief.

Hence is the inequality of the two genders in Islam.

both genders are equal in their own different ways.
two twins may not look the same but are equal.
two genders are not the same but the people are equal, none can have more rights than the other, for then they would not be equal

What if a Muslim woman falls in love with non-Muslim man? Is really any business of yours or that of the religion whether they marry or not? Must she then be forced to marry old Muslim man that she doesn't love?

well the laws of islam prevent such acts, if they are followed accordingly. a man in islam is allowed to spend more time away from home, cos men are obligated to take care of the family, not the women, women are allowed to go out, there where they have to take care of personal matters, or get something they need but in no way are women allowed to go to work while the husband stays home just cos he is lazy to work. this is that equality but in a different way. you see how it goes.
no women are forced to marry any old man that they do not love, islam forbids it. but cultures don't, so just because an arab who happens to be a muslim marries his daughter to some older guy just so they can patch things up finacialy then that in no way has anything to do with islam , the law of Allah.

if you wish to speak further about this then here is my future reply to you;
that austrian FRITZL guy is a christian right, so that which he did was because christianity says to do so, or because he is a sick man and his sick brain tolled him to do so?

It's hopelessly oppressive with stupid archaic rules, laws, and worse customs. There's certainly no equality here. People who adhere to such primitive tradition showed that Islam can't grow. Unchanging society will only stagnated.

isn't it a pimitive tradition to say that men and women are not equal unless they are 'equal' (ie, men should give birth)

If a Muslim woman can't marry a non-Muslim, then the same rule should apply to Muslim men. Otherwise there law should be discarded, and Muslim women should freely able to marry non-Muslim men just like the way Muslim men do

is this because you say so? it seems you stepped out of that 'truth' you so passionatly were speaking of. a slave cannot question a master. so you are saying that just because Allah has brought such a law that we either abolish the law or we become non muslim. i'm sure your country has a law that you do not agree to just as the above law to which you do not agree, but you are still living there, are'nt you?
all american criminals hate the capital punishment laws that puth them to death, and yet they still live there and they still comit crimes and it is not just the criminals who hate them but even the innocent but still they live there. i wonder why that is?

 

[gnostic]

you haven't understood her point, both genders are equal but different at the same time. men and women are equal at say sexual relations, but the man doesn't give birth, the woman does. so what you are saying is that both genders need to be able to give birth in order to be equal. so a man and a woman cannot be equal according to you right because men can't give birth.

That has to be the weakest argument I have ever heard to justify that man should have more rights than a woman.

From our example about Muslim marrying a non-Muslim. What on earth does a woman being able to get pregnant and give birth have to do with giving a Muslim woman's right to be able to marry a non-Muslim man???????????????????????????????????

We are discussing about men and women right, and how they are equal, not about the natural condition of woman. You're comparing horse with a shark. We are talking about equality (or in Islam's case, inequality), not of the woman's biology or anatomy.

so isn't the truth a fact?

No, it isn't.

Your "the sky is blue in a sunny day" argument is true...or can be true on a sunny day...but it is really not a great example, because it is totally unrelated to religion.

the truth is the same no matter who says it, and we cannot say the truth according to what we beleive, if so then there would be the truth that you speak of (meaning there would be no true truth), but that is not the case. i am a muslim you are not, the sky is blue in a sunny day. do you agree or do you not?

So let me explain the difference.

Fact, requires evidences to validate if the truth is real and valid. Truth doesn't ALWAYS required proof.

Truth can be what you believe to be real, but not necessarily be proven.

With religion, and with religious truth, fact can be ignored, and be replaced with just belief and faith, hence the truth (religious truth) has absolutely nothing to do with fact.

Truth and fact can coincide, and they can be the same. But I've already given a very example (in my previous reply) of what a religious truth is, and how they different from fact.

I am referring to the example of djinn (or jinn).

According to Qur'an, the djinn existed, and Muslims believed to be real.

Is my assumption right?

1. Hence, that's your (or Islam's) truth. But have you ever seen djinn?
2. And can you prove that the djinn are real, by real physical evidences that support the Qur'an's claim?

If no, then you have no fact. No proof about the djinn. You haven't see one. You only believe in djinn, but you can't prove it.

Do you now understand the difference between fact and truth now?

Your truth...and I am talking about religious truth, has more to do with belief and faith than actual fact.

 

[Gharib]

That has to be the weakest argument I have ever heard to justify that man should have more rights than a woman.

still not on the same page. where have i said that men need to have more rights than women? i have said they both have equal rights but in different ways, which of this don't you geet?

From our example about Muslim marrying a non-Muslim. What on earth does a woman being able to get pregnant and give birth have to do with giving a Muslim woman's right to be able to marry a non-Muslim man???????????????????????????????????

different rights but still at equilibrium.

We are discussing about men and women right, and how they are equal, not about the natural condition of woman.

well the only way to have both genders equal is to give them both rights according to their natural conditions. thats what i've been saying, have you been paying attention?

a mature disabled person who has lost his legs can still go on a scary ride even though his height is less than the required height. do you see the differences in the rights?

You're comparing horse with a shark. We are talking about equality (or in Islam's case, inequality), not of the woman's biology or anatomy.

well a womans biology or anatomy says tham men are a stronger species, so we'll just have women working in construction and men washing dishes. is that what you are saying?

Your "the sky is blue in a sunny day" argument is true...or can be true on a sunny day...but it is really not a great example, because it is totally unrelated to religion.

ok i a muslim and someone a jew, does god exist? yes he does.

Fact, requires evidences to validate if the truth is real and valid. Truth doesn't ALWAYS required proof.

so me saying that god exists is a truth without facts according to you? here is my fact then;
god created the world, it didn't come to be by chance,
god created life, he takes it and restores it, the best example would be the plant cycle, every year god turns many plants to dust then he brings another generation to life through rain. you do accept that palnts cannot grow without water, right?

Truth can be what you believe to be real, but not necessarily be proven.

god has proven his existence, but the facts are not accepted

With religion, and with religious truth, fact can be ignored, and be replaced with just belief and faith, hence the truth (religious truth) has absolutely nothing to do with fact.

islam is a religion supported by facts, it's not "just cos i say it is true".
which facs would you like to hear, actually i will ask you something, if i can prove to you that jinns exist and are real, will you accept that islam is real (i'm not asking for a conversion, but a simple acknowledgment that islam is based on facts, and not fairy tales, what you do afterwards is you choice)

I am referring to the example of djinn (or jinn).

yes i know.

According to Qur'an, the djinn existed, and Muslims believed to be real.
Is my assumption right?

they do exist, not cos muslims and quran says so, but because it is the truth, and your assumption is kind of right, partially

Hence, that's your (or Islam's) truth. But have you ever seen djinn?

the only humans who can see the jinn in it's real form are muslim scholars who have gained controll over them and are comanding them to to what they wish, they do not always see it in it's real form though, not everytime that they speak to each other.
i however, may have seen it but while it has been in a transformed state, not it's real body or appearance and a good possibility that everyone has seen them, including you.

do you wish to see one that has entered the human body, see it with your own eyes? just as i claimed it had entered me, several times actually when i was a kid, it paralised different parts of my body

And can you prove that the djinn are real, by real physical evidences that support the Qur'an's claim?

yes, i can. do you wish to see the video. actually i will open a new thread and we can disscus this matter there, do you agree? but like i said you must acknowledge that islam is a religion based on facts not made up.

If no, then you have no fact. No proof about the djinn.

yes, if i can't it would be a made up truth.

Your truth...and I am talking about religious truth, has more to do with belief and faith than actual fact

no my truth is based on facts, otherwise i would not just beleive, that would be pointless.

 

[kai]

show me Djinn , pretty please with sugar on top.

 

[YmirGF]

yes, i can. do you wish to see the video. actually i will open a new thread and we can disscus this matter there, do you agree? but like i said you must acknowledge that islam is a religion based on facts not made up.

I can't speak for Gnostic, but I think such a thread would be quite entertaining.

 

[Gharib]

show me Djinn , pretty please with sugar on top.

they don't come with sugar on top, but salt instead

 

[Gharib]

I can't speak for Gnostic, but I think such a thread would be quite entertaining.

it seems you are interested, ok i will do it

 

[Gharib]

heres the name of the thread;

the evidence of Jinn

 

[England my lionheart]

I am a strong believer in that stonning to death is not Islamic at all, but give me a break.If the woman could not produce the 4 witnesses to support her rape claim how could she be stonned to death when 4 witnesses are also required to have witnesses the actual sexual intercourse?? See this does not make any sense.

Many non-Muslims like to exaggerate muslim women "suffering". You do realise that every punishment defined in Qurán is for BOTH genders. Yes in some parts of the world women are being mistreated and many of them are Islamic nations. But Islam has in fact honored women, has given women rights she never had before and just because some Muslim men chose to abide by their sick traditions (e.g. honor killing) over Islam does not mean Islam should be blamed. No one is blaming Christianity for some Monks pedophilia or Nuns' harsh treatment of girls in religious boarding schools, no one is blaming Hindusim for some Monks request of boiling the hands of female villagers to prove their fidelity, or marrying young girls to men or even animals etc. Why single out Islam?

Stoning to death is part of the Hudud(spelling?) punishments along with cutting off hands and feet,this is part of the Legacy left by Muhammed and as i have said before in his time nothing unusual and worse punishments were carried out by Christians when the Church split 5 or 600 years ago but Sharia and Hudud still exist.
There are examples of Muhammed ordering people to be stoned or killed or tortured in the Hadiths so it isn't sick traditions its people following what Muhammed did in his lifetime and that is the problem.
I have read a lot about stoning at at one stoning the first person to throw a stone said "it is not i that throws this stone but Allah" this isn't culteral,this is a product of Islam and Sharia law.
Obviously not every Muslim practices this barbarism so yes you are right we cannot tar everyone with the same brush as i have met many Muslims who think its disgusting as well.

 

[Fatihah]

How on earth did you get that from my post? What is horrible is a mob killing an innocent Belgian man because a Danish newspaper printed a cartoon they didn't like, or jailing a teacher because one of her students gave their teddy bear the wrong name. Please explain to me how a Teddy Bear's name can endanger someone's life. Or how an innocent Belgian man endangers your life, when he had nothing to do with anything other than being European.

Response: What does this have to do with the subject of the thread? The thread is about Muhammad. Did Muhammad kill somebody over a teddy bear? Did Muhammad say that a teddy bear endangers a person's life? No. So why is the question even being asked?

 

[Kodanshi]

Response: It is you that has made the claim that these hadiths are in Bukhari and Muslim and provided links for evidence. I already know and am very familiar with Bukhari and Muslim so I already know what's inside. I used your links and these hadiths are not there. One is even a fabrication. Either you provided the wrong links or you are lying. Which one is it? I sincerely hope you wouldn't lie.

They are there at the correct hyperlinks that I gave. They are, however, mostly long ahadith so you may need to actually read the whole thing… In fact, let me even post some screenshots! Back in a moment…

EDIT: do muslims lie so habitually that you automatically assume everyone else does? I’ve taken screenshots of the page, HIGHLIGHTED the appropriate passages from the ahadith and even left in the address bar so you can see the exact hadith book, volume and hadith number itself as well as the full address!

http://i43.tinypic.com/jfge8m.jpg - seal of prophethood
http://i43.tinypic.com/2zits7q.jpg - archery
http://i40.tinypic.com/11tor9s.jpg - ‘Aishah’s beating.

It seems plainly obvious to me that you either didn’t allow the page to load fully, or else you didn’t read the whole hadith on account of its length. And why would you? Like a lot of passages in the Qur’ân the ahadith contain a lot of mundane and banal material.