Muhammad The Greatest: A comparative study

[McBell]

Response: The qur'an says on many different occasions to do good deeds and in verse 33:21 Muhammad is to be the model of islam. Therefore any allegation in which Muhammad is not doing a good deed in the hadiths is a contridiction to the qur'an.

As for the proof that the qur'an is from Allah, I provide you with the following:

In ch.4:82 we read: "Will they not, then, meditate upon the qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."

Also, in ch.2:23 of the qur'an we read "And if you are in doubt as to what we have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful."

There you have it. Two challenges that prove that the qur'an is the authentic word of Allah. You disagree? Then answer the challenge. Find a disrepancy in the qur'an or produce a chapter like it.

Kent Hovind Challenges do not impress me.

• Because Quran is the direct commands of Allah (SWT)
• Quran was written down during the Prophet's (PBUH) life
• Quran was collected by Khalifa Abu Baker (RAA), the companion of the Prophet (PBUH) and the leader of Muslims after his death
• Quran is preserved for over 1400 years, there is only one edition, written in one language without any catergory e.g. weak, strong, etc)

Overall the holy Qur'an was preserved from any human error and/or alteration.

That's why non-Muslims will always choose "Hadiths" (fabricated ones) to attack Islam and never the Qur'an because they cannot find anything to refute in its content.

Yes, the scientific miracles on top of its perfection in terms of providing a complete way of life that suits all times.

i think sister Fatihah gave the most concise and best answer to your question.

I suspect that Imagist was looking for something OTHER than circular reasoning.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Originally Posted by England my lionheart


I am posting this again as i have'nt had an answer

In your "free" country you will be put to jail should you dared to deny the Holocaust, or question the number of casualities. In fact how many writers were put to jail because of that specific issue in your fellow "free" country France?

Why do people in your "free" country embrace Islam? You haven't answer that.

Anyway, here is the answer to your question:

Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) will NEVER violate, add, deduct or alter any Qur'anic commandment. In the Qur'an it says clearly adulterer will recieve 100 lashes. Period. There is no reason to believe that the Prophet (PBUH) will go outside Allah's direct commandments.

Yes we do emulate Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and we have pride in doing so. Just because some Muslims choose to believe or do something based on their interpretation of certain event, does not mean they are upholding true Islamic teaching.

Yes some Hadiths are fabricated, but a Muslim will easily distinguish between true hadith and fabricated one based on the Qur'an, the main source of Islam. The purpose of Hadiths and Sunnah is to explain the verses of Qur'an and set an example and a role model of how Muslim should be in his daily dealings;NOT to add, deduct or alter any Qur'anic commandments. So it is not even hard for non-Muslim!

On a related note, let's discuss how Sunnah and Hadiths advanced the humanity of Islam 1400 years ago. Long before Geneva Convention existed, we were given strict set of disciplines and rulings concerning warfare. Since this thread is about Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) greatness, let's read more of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) great teachings:

Even before the Geneva Convention exists, Islam since 1,400 years ago had put forth various disciplines and rulings concerning warfare. Even if the Geneva Convention does not exist, the Muslims are compelled to abide by the rules Islam stipulated in tackling war. In Islam, discipline in warfare is not only to preserve the reputation of a government but it is more for adhering to the commands of the religion.
War is not for spilling blood but instead it is for upholding the truth and justice. Allah says in surah al-Baqarah verse 190 (translated as): “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.”
In a hadith reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim, the Prophet s.a.w mentioned: “O ye men! Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy. Pray to Allah to grant you security; (but) when you (have to) encounter them exercise patience (be firm and do not move back).”
Because of that, Islam specifies that killing is only for the battlefield. Only combat those who are involved in war. The enemies who do not participate in war are neither combated nor killed.
To ensure that the emphasis on discipline during a war is being fulfilled, the Muslim scholars elaborate it in detailed and make it as the main focus so that the blood of the following groups is not spilled:
First: Women who do not join the force in war and children. In a hadith from Ibn ‘Umar, he said: “During some of the crusades of the Prophet, a woman was found killed. Allah’s Apostle then disapproved the killing of women and children.” (Reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim)
Second: The elderly and sick people. They are not killed unless it is suspected that they are involved in the actions and planning of the war. This particular ruling is inferred from the case of women not assisting in the war.
Third: Those who are worshipping in houses of worship. Its evidence can be derived from the narration of Ibn ‘Abbas, who said: “When the Messenger of Allah sent out an army, he would say to them: Go out (into the battlefield of Jihad) in the name of Allah, fight in the way of Allah whoever denies Allah. Do not breach any agreements, do not steal from the possessions gained in war, do not mutilate the deads, do not kill children and the members of houses of worships. (Narrated by Ahmad, Ahmad Muhammad Syakir said that this hadith is hasan (good))
Al-Syaukani said (deceased in 1250 H): “This hadith provides the evidence that it is not allowed to kill anyone among the non-Muslims who only performs acts of worship such as the priests because they do not pose any threat to the Muslims.” (Al-Syaukani, Nail al-Autar, vol. 8, pg. 74, Beirut: Dar al-Jil)
Fourth: The workers and peasants. The majority of Ulama state that they are not to be killed. Its evidence is in the hadith of Hanzalah al-Katib who said: “We were with the Messenger of Allah on an expedition, and we passed by a woman who had been killed. At that time, people were gathering around her body and they let him through (to see it). He said: She did not join the war. Then he sent a man and said: Go to Khalid Ibn al-Walid and tell him: “The Messenger of Allah has sent a command by saying: Do not kill children (in another narration: women) and ‘asif (hired servant).”” (Narrated by Abu Daud, Ibn Majah and Ahmad. Al-Albani verified is as sahih (sound). Refer to Al-Albani, Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Sahihah, vol. 2, pg. 314, Riyadh: Maktabah al-Ma‘arf li al-Nasyr).
Hired servants are those whose only duty is to prepare food, or clean the camps of the army or the likes of it. As long as they are not involved directly in the war, they are not to be killed.
Fifth: The envoys and diplomats. ‘Abdullah bin Mas’ud said: “It pertains to the Sunnah (practices and teachings of the Prophet) that envoys are not killed”. (Reported by Abu Daud, Ahmad, al-Bazzar, Abu Ya’la. Their chain of reporters is considered as hasan (al-Hathaimiy, Majma’ al-Zawaid, vol 5, pg. 314, Beirut: Dar al-Rayyan))

The above is an excerpt from Dr. Abiden article.

To continue

 

[ProudMuslim]

More

In all his battles, the Prophet (SAWS) advised the army leaders and said, "Go ahead in the name of Allah, and by the blessing of his Messenger. Don't kill an old man, or a child, or a young person or a woman. Don't betray. Act in the Right way, and do good, truly Allah loves the good-doers". And He (SAWS) forbade also mutilating dead bodies as he said: " I warn you of mutilating the killed, even if it was a slaughter dog". He (SAWS) said also: " Don't kill women, or children, or those who are in the monasteries."

Also Abu-Bakr Al Siddiq (the verifier ), the 1st caliph to Muslims advised the first military expedition'sleader in his era, Osama Bin Zaid saying: "Don't betray. Don't take illegally a part of booty. Don't mutilate the dead bodies. Don't kill a child, or an old man, or a woman. Do not cut down or burn palm trees and don't cut down a fruity tree. Don't slaughter a sheep, or a cow or a camel except for food. You will find on your way people who claim to have totally given themselves to Allah. Leave them to what they claim to have given themselves).

Also Abu-Bakr Al Siddiq (the verifier ), the 1st caliph to Muslims advised the first military expedition'sleader in his era, Osama Bin Zaid saying: "Don't betray. Don't take illegally a part of booty. Don't mutilate the dead bodies. Don't kill a child, or an old man, or a woman. Do not cut down or burn palm trees and don't cut down a fruity tree. Don't slaughter a sheep, or a cow or a camel except for food. You will find on your way people who claim to have totally given themselves to Allah. Leave them to what they claim to have given themselves).

In his advice to his army leader headed for al-sham (The Levant), Abu-Bakr said to Abu-Bakr Yazed Ibn-Abu-Sufyan adding to what was said before " And never fight a wounded man, because a part of him is not his(likening the wounded part to the dead which is not to be put to torture at your hands ) . Speak a little as it suffices you what people have understood from you Accept people 's public deeds and entrust their secrets to Allah. Don't confine your soldiers, lest you should disgrace them ; don't neglect them, because you may spoil them. I place you in the trust of Allah, whose trust is never misplaced."

In addition, The Caliph Omar Ibnul-Khattab has advised his leader of the army saying: " Go In the name of Allah, and with His help. Go with Allah's support. You'll have victory by staying in the battle and being patient. Fight and transgress not the limits, truly Allah likes not the transgressors. Don't be coward when meeting the enemy. Never mutilate when you've the ability to do so. Don't exceed the limits in the matter of taking life when you're the winners. Don't kill an old man, or a woman, or a child and avoid killing them as much as possible and when the heat of the battle grows and becomes fiercer , make your fight only for the sake of God not for vainglory of this life ,then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme

The Prophet (SAWS) has forbidden burning people alive with fire. He said, " The Lord of fire is the only One Who can punish by fire." narrated by Abu-Dawud and al-Dârimî.

The messenger of Allah (SAWS) has forbidden harming or doing any injustice to prisoners of war as the Hadith says , "on the authority of Shihab as he said," Accompanied by a prisoners of wars , Abo-Baker once passed by Sohib while he was sitting in the mosque , on seeing him , Sohib said " who is this with you ? " "He is a prisoner of war ; I am going to ask the prophet's protection for him " replied Abo-Baker . " there seem to be what could be the effect of a sword in his neck !!" Said Sohib ; Abo-Bakr got angry as a result and headed to the prophet ; on seeing him as so , prophet Mohummed said " why are you angry ?" " I passed with my prisoner by Sohib ,who said he saw the sign of a sword in my prisoner's neck " prophet Mohummed said " Mind you didn't cause him any harm !!" Abo Bakr said " I swear by God , I didn't ." If you had harmed him . you would have disobeyed and displeased God and His messenger ." prophet Mohummed said .

The above excerpt is from Dr. Sayid Mustafa Ahmed Abul-Khair article.

Do these teachings speak of a violent and an intolerant man?

Or are you simply going to dismiss them and pick the same ones that serve your agenda even though they clearly violates Quranic prohibitions AND Muhammed (PBUH) characteristic which are manifested in the above hadiths?

 

[ProudMuslim]

Kent Hovind Challenges do not impress me.


I suspect that Imagist was looking for something OTHER than circular reasoning.

I believe this "circular reasoning" is the result of repetitive questioning. Sometimes a person need to go beyond insisting on asking the same question, and instead question the given answers.

 

[Fatihah]

Kent Hovind Challenges do not impress me.


I suspect that Imagist was looking for something OTHER than circular reasoning.

Response: If that is the case, the challenge still stands.

 

[McBell]

I believe this "circular reasoning" is the result of repetitive questioning. Sometimes a person need to go beyond insisting on asking the same question, and instead question the given answers.

What are you talking about?
He is merely claiming that the Koran is true simply because the Qur'an says that the Qu'ran is true.

Response: If that is the case, the challenge still stands.

Not for anyone whom understands the "Kent Hovind Challenge" concept.

 

[Fatihah]

What are you talking about?
He is merely claiming that the Koran is true simply because the Qur'an says that the Qu'ran is true.

Response: Then quote any part of the challenge in which I say that the qur'an is true because it says it's true, if you are truthful.

 

[ProudMuslim]

No, it's directly quoted from primary sources.

The same primary sources that deduce Aisha (RAA) was not 9 when she got married.

Sorry, but how is a forty-year-old sleeping with a twelve-year-old significantly better than sleeping with a nine-year-old?

England changed its marriage consent from the age of 12 for girls to 13 in 1875. I'm sure you will be all smart now and say "this has nothing to do with England" which is not my point. My point is less than 150 years ago girls were "marriagable" at age 12, do you think 1400 years ago that same age (or even 9) was sick? We are not discussing what do you think, we are talking about facts, about ancient lifestyle that existed. Life back then is not like now.

There's the possibility of her hitting puberty, but that doesn't mean she is emotionally or mentally mature enough to give consent.

Prophet's father was 16 years old when he fathered him, what are you talking about here? You are smart enough to know that a child 1400, or maybe even 150 years ago, years ago was not like the child of nowadays, the emotional and mental maturity cannot of these two generations cannot be remotely compared.

I'm not dictating what to believe. I'm merely pointing out the obvious inconsistencies in your beliefs.

No, you think you are pointing inconsistencies in my beliefs, when i fact you don't get my beliefs at all.

Please explain what this has to do with this discussion at all. I am not a Christian. I am not denying what the Christians did. I despise what the Christians did. And no matter how bad the Christians were, it doesn't excuse wrongdoing on the part of Muhammed.

Well you said "imagine if Christians decide to kill you for ......" and i simply answered i dont have to imagine, they did in fact do something in the past. and yes Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) never used other's wrongdoings to justify any corrupted act, he was an ideal man.

I never said anything about what Muslims will or will not do. What I said was that Muslims don't have to emulate Muhammed. In fact, I think that Muslims should not emulate Muhammed.

Rephrased but still baseless.

Jesus.

I stand corrected! What was i thinking when i imagined leaders such as Hitler and Stalin.

You asked me why he would do something that contradicted the teachings of the Quran. I said because he's not perfect.

Again very weak argument. I am a human too and have my mistakes but i dont try to violate Qur'an specifically the fundamentals. Why would the Prophet (PBUH) and the founder of Islam do so? You still fail to make a valid argument.

And those that you choose to believe - they conveniently happen to only be the ones that say what you want them to say? Oh, and the "teachings of Prophet Muhammed" - which you pick and choose which ones of those to follow, too, don't you?

No it is you that choose to believe what supports your agenda disclaiming all others texts that support our main and most accurate source of Islam which is the Qur'an.

Well, it would help if you presented 1) evidence that Muhammed wouldn't violate divine messages, and 2) an ancient text that supported your claim.

1)I have already presented ancient texts that talk about the same issues you used to vilify him but with refuting content.
2) Holy Qur'an. And unlike your ancient texts, Qur'an is accurate and unaltered.

I've already presented that 1) Muhammed WOULD violate divine messages (he's not perfect) and 2) that ancient texts support that claim (the Hadiths about him having sex with a nine-year-old girl and attacking Mecca).

See above.

You have presented neither.

I did, would you like to me to post the links again? The ones about Mecca and Aisha' age?

Preconceived or not, I have texts that support my ideas. Unlike you.

LOL, yes you the non-Muslim have texts that support your belief on Islam and Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) unlike me the Muslim. What a strong, valid and convincing argument

I said that most people do both good and evil. I didn't say how extreme the good or evil. Obviously, Muhammed was a man of extremes (he did both extreme good and extreme evil). He is different from most people in the extremity of his good and evil, but he is the same as most people in that he did both good and evil.

Although this does not hold any value, but ok give me examples of his extremity in good in your opinion? I have only read the "evil" accusations.

You make a nice statement, but unfortunately, the evidence does not back it up.

Oh yes it does. At least i am not confused with my belief and nothing will shake it. Something that cannot be said about you.

 

[ProudMuslim]

What are you talking about?
He is merely claiming that the Koran is true simply because the Qur'an says that the Qu'ran is true.

What are YOU talking about?

You have quoted my post, did any of my answer claims Qur'an is true because it is so? I have stated reasons and gave examples of why Qur'an is true.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Quoted for pure comedy.

Once again i stand corrected.Communism is as old as Islam AND is still growing strong like Islam. I dont know why we the Muslims like to twist and fabricate facts!

 

[McBell]

Response: Then quote any part of the challenge in which I say that the qur'an is true because it says it's true, if you are truthful.

When did I say you were using circular reasoning?

Hells bells, ya'll can't even keep track of who is reply to who.

 

[McBell]

What are YOU talking about?

Your circular reasoning.
Please pay attention.

You have quoted my post, did any of my answer claims Qur'an is true because it is so? I have stated reasons and gave examples of why Qur'an is true.

You did not flat out say it.
No, instead you added a few extra steps, but it still circles back unto itself.
Thus making it circular reasoning.



Golly gee this merry go round is getting old.:yes:

 

[Gharib]

People who work in Saudi etc do not stay,its purley for the tax free pay

but they still go there. thats the main point

 

[Gharib]

Both humans and animals are mammals. In recent years I have begun to use the term "human animal" because it is my belief that in our arrogance, people have begun to ignore the fact that we are creatures of the Earth and in fact, just another delightful species of the animal kingdom. As one human animal to another, I salute you.

no you see this is wrong. the difference between human and animal is the ability to think. everything has it's own place, you said it your self we are mamals and what about those that aren't mamals with no back bone they cannot be called mamals because they have no back bone just as we cannot be called animals because we have the ability to think. this is quite simple. you cannot call a cat a dog just because they walk with all 4.

 

[McBell]

 

[Gharib]

What I meant is that I am able to listen to other opinions with an open mind. I am a slave to no one. I would never say - as you have said - that I am not allowed to think for myself .

You:"well muslims aren't allowed to "think" for themseves,"

that was a joke between me and Fatihah, you can't take it seriously.

So these stories are the only proof you need that black dogs are evil and should be killed ?

don't worry about it. you'll never get it

You said...

eselam: many scholars beleive that when the devil takes a earthly form (ie of an animal) he only turns into a black colour and no other colour. so yes in the islamic world a creature that is ALL BLACK with no other colour is a devil and scholars say that it needs to be killed, linking back to the prophets hadith.

Which would speak of animals only. But.. then you said..

eselam:there is an actuall story, but the devil had transformed into a lamb rather than a dog. it can take any form appart from that of the prophet (saws) it cannot copy his face.

yes it takes a human form aswell but the thing with muhammed (saws) was about dreams (it appears in peoples dreams claiming that it is muhammed (saws) but it cannot copy his face, therefore muslims know that it wasn't muhammed (saws) in the dream, it was the devil. muhammed (saws) appears to us with his face but the devil can't)

when the devil takes an earthly form such as both human and animal, it doesn't nessessaraly turn into a balck being. it can have other colours, but we cannot go harming all creatures just because we think it may be a devil. but when we see a black animal it most deffinately is a devil. so what i'm saying is that it doesn't always transform into a black animal, it can also transform into a different coloured animal appart from black.

Any form 'except' that of the prophet - Satan could not copy his face. You mentioned a man here. If you were not speaking of human beings I do not know why you would mention one. If you misspoke.... so be it.

no i didn't misspoke, it is correct. the thing with muhammed (saws) is when we see him in our dreams, but in reallity it can turn into a human, but we cannot recognise it. and it doesn't turn into a black human. it can turn into anything

Welcome Brother - sorry for the mix up.

thank you. no problem.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Your circular reasoning.
Please pay attention.


You did not flat out say it.
No, instead you added a few extra steps, but it still circles back unto itself.
Thus making it circular reasoning.



Golly gee this merry go round is getting old.:yes:

If you consider the reasons i gave to why Qur'an is the word of God as/pertain to "because it is so", i think it is YOU who should pay attention and maybe advance your reading comprehension level as well.

 

[Fatihah]

When did I say you were using circular reasoning?

Hells bells, ya'll can't even keep track of who is reply to who.

Response: In posts #466 you said the following to ProudMuslim about me:

"What are you talking about?
He is merely claiming that the Koran is true simply because the Qur'an says that the Qu'ran is true."(End quote)

Sorry but it is you that can't keep track.

 

[England my lionheart]

In your "free" country you will be put to jail should you dared to deny the Holocaust, or question the number of casualities. In fact how many writers were put to jail because of that specific issue in your fellow "free" country France?

Why do people in your "free" country embrace Islam? You haven't answer that.

Anyway, here is the answer to your question:

Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) will NEVER violate, add, deduct or alter any Qur'anic commandment. In the Qur'an it says clearly adulterer will recieve 100 lashes. Period. There is no reason to believe that the Prophet (PBUH) will go outside Allah's direct commandments.

Yes we do emulate Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and we have pride in doing so. Just because some Muslims choose to believe or do something based on their interpretation of certain event, does not mean they are upholding true Islamic teaching.

Yes some Hadiths are fabricated, but a Muslim will easily distinguish between true hadith and fabricated one based on the Qur'an, the main source of Islam. The purpose of Hadiths and Sunnah is to explain the verses of Qur'an and set an example and a role model of how Muslim should be in his daily dealings;NOT to add, deduct or alter any Qur'anic commandments. So it is not even hard for non-Muslim!

On a related note, let's discuss how Sunnah and Hadiths advanced the humanity of Islam 1400 years ago. Long before Geneva Convention existed, we were given strict set of disciplines and rulings concerning warfare. Since this thread is about Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) greatness, let's read more of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) great teachings:

Here is a Bukhari Hadith concerning stoning,there are others but my point isn't that Muhammed had people stoned to death but the point is that people who are trying to emulate Muhammed today.
Narrated Ash-Sha'bi: from 'Ali when the latter stoned a lady to death on a Friday. 'Ali said, "I have stoned her according to the tradition of Allah's Apostle."

 

[England my lionheart]

but they still go there. thats the main point

No its not the MAIN point,the main point is that i do not live in a totalitarian state,nobody tells me what to believe,do my ablutions etc etc etc plus we have a welfare state for everybody regardless of race religion,gender,sexuality or politics,can you tell me one Islamic state that does that,even Dogs are persecuted if they are black in Iran and we know why.