Muhammads knowledge divine or learned?

[vskipper]

The accepted theory is that Muhammad was given the Quran over a span of 23 years by the angel Gabriel first appearing to him in the cave.

Here is the primary issue followed by a secondary point:

Muhammad was a known trader & one of the many places he traveled was Syria. For the Christians reading this allow me to explain. Syria is the home of Damascus where Paul is alleged to have had his vision. Thus it stands to reason that Muhammad would have been exposed to oral stories of the Torah & the Bible

Now before any refutations are given allow me to point out another matter:

Why Gabriel? There are only two instances in the entire Bible (thats 66 books) that Gabriel reveals who he is (or the name Gabriel.is even mentioned). Most of the time if an angel is mentioned in the Bible it is nameless. And both times Gabriel is named is to announce pregnancies. So, then why would Gabriel be specifically named to Muhammad?

I look forward to the explanations & rebuttals. I will refrain from reply for 2 days.

 

[vskipper]

I know I said I would refrain from reply but you might want to know that your youtube links dont work

 

[outhouse]

I know I said I would refrain from reply but you might want to know that your youtube links dont work

Nor credible links.

 

[outhouse]

What he knew he learned.

The supernatural does not exist in reality. That's why its called supernatural.


Christianity and the whole bible was wide spread through the area.


Everyone knew about this monotheistic ish religion and it was very popular.



There is no credible reason for him not to plagiarize it. So he did.

 

[George-ananda]

My opinion is Mohammed was inspired by beings above the physical realm for the benefit of the Arab people of his times. It was a brutal backwards time and I believe it was an effort by higher beings to bring civility and unity to a region of the world.

He was illiterate and his reciting of the Quran is hard to explain as his own crafty mental machinations or the product of self-delusion. A studied Muslim can give a list of reasons why this explanation of the Quran being Mohammed's own mental product just does not make sense. (I've seen these arguments before and one of our Muslim posters is free to provide the details).

 

[outhouse]

My opinion is Mohammed was inspired by beings above the physical realm QUOTE]


:biglaugh:


Good luck trying to substantiate it

 

[George-ananda]

Sure it was! That's why Muhammad mass-murdered the faithful, moral, literate, peaceful, prosperous date-farming Jews of Medina, and pressed their mothers, wives and little girls into sexual slavery, and conquered and subjugated nearly the whole of the Arabian Peninsula in his lifetime, and his followers nearly the whole known world in his wake!

My opinion is your statements are somewhere between lies and ridiculous perversions of the truth.

 

[George-ananda]

Your opinion then, is certainly not based on historical fact. I quoted the Quran and hadith to support Muhammad's massacre of the Banu Qurayza Jews, which is one of the proudest moments in Islamic history as far as many Muslims are concerned.

Well Pete you stimulated me to do a little research. It is apparently a source of controversy to this day. I looked at Wikipedia and found:

The reason why Sa'd ibn Mu'adh made such a decision and the Apostle of Allah accepted it, Abul A'la Maududi writes about it:

" At last, they surrendered themselves to the Holy Prophet on the condition that they would accept whatever decision Sa'd ibn Mu'adh, the chief of the Aus, would give. They had accepted Sa'd as their judge because in the pre-Islamic days the Aus and the Quraizah had been confederates and they hoped that in view of the past ties he would help them quit Madinah as had happened in the case of the Bani Qainuqa and the Bani an-Nadir before. The people of the Aus themselves wished that Sa'd treat their previous allies leniently. But Sa'd had just experienced and seen how the two Jewish tribes who had been allowed to leave Madinah previously had instigated the other tribes living around Madinah and summoned the united front of ten to twelve thousand men against the Muslims. He was also aware how treacherously this last Jewish tribe had behaved right on the occasion when the city was under attack from outside and threatened the safety of the whole of its population. Therefore, he decreed that all the male members of the Quraizah should be put to death, their women and children taken prisoners, and their properties distributed among the Muslims. The sentence was carried out duly. When the Muslims entered their strongholds they found that the treacherous people had collected 1,500 swords, 300 coats of mail, 2,000 spears and 1,500 shields in order to join the war. If Allah's succor had not reached the Muslims, all this military equipment would have been used to attack Madinah from the rear right at the time when the polytheists were making preparations for a general assault on the Muslims after crossing the Trench. After this disclosure there remained no doubt that the decision of Sa'd concerning those people was absolutely correct." [1]


This is seeming to say the Quralzah Jews were planning to join sides with the enemy tribes of the Muslims in multi-front attack on the Muslims. So the Muslims attacked and eliminated this threat that would have ended the Muslims existence. It also seems to suggest Mohammed had an intuition about the Quralzah Jews plans and the cache of military hardware found supported the idea that his intuition was right.

In your opinion what was the motive for Mohammed allowing the attack?

 

[Nakosis]

You know what can happen is that people on a subconscious level get influences by everything that is part of their life experience.

Years later they have an dream or vision that they cannot identify the source of. Perhaps something which presents itself with profound meaning. It would be very understandable how someone might interpret these experiences as divine messages.

The brain/mind is pretty tricky. A lot of the rest just gets filled in with a presumption of righteousness with regards to one's own morality. All truly felt and well intentioned.

 

[vskipper]

I find it rather intriguing that no Muslims responded to this thread.

 

[outhouse]

I find it rather intriguing that no Muslims responded to this thread.

They cannot.


They are all required to denounce credible history.

Same as a YEC denouncing evolution. You will only hear crickets chirping

 

[Sleeppy]

I find the idea that Muhammed was illiterate very hard to believe (all these influential, wealthy people he was around, never taught him?); and very convenient..

Quran-Islam.org - True Islam

 

[Smart_Guy]

I find it rather intriguing that no Muslims responded to this thread.

Yes but what kinda response are you seeking?

You're asking why Gabriel, and this questions I don't see useful. I mean, why not Gabriel?

Or is it about Muhammad being illiterate? Illiteracy is not knowing how to read or write, it is not about knowing how to speak after being dictated, and interact.

Unless perhaps I misunderstood you point?

Please advise.

 

[vskipper]

Yes but what kinda response are you seeking?

You're asking why Gabriel, and this questions I don't see useful. I mean, why not Gabriel?

Or is it about Muhammad being illiterate? Illiteracy is not knowing how to read or write, it is not about knowing how to speak after being dictated, and interact.

Unless perhaps I misunderstood you point?

Please advise.

A. Gabriel is only ever mentioned twice in the entire 66 books of the Bible. Both times were to announce pregnancies.

B. I am conceding illiteracy for the sake of argument. The question then becomes why would it be improbable for him to have gained knowledge of the Bible audibly as most people were taught this way (as it pertains to the Bible) & one of the cities he frequented during his trade routes was Damascus which was known for its Jewish & Christian communities

 

[Smart_Guy]

A. Gabriel is only ever mentioned twice in the entire 66 books of the Bible. Both times were to announce pregnancies.

B. I am conceding illiteracy for the sake of argument. The question then becomes why would it be improbable for him to have gained knowledge of the Bible audibly as most people were taught this way (as it pertains to the Bible) & one of the cities he frequented during his trade routes was Damascus which was known for its Jewish & Christian communities

A. I don't see a problem in God giving Gabriel a different mission in the era of Muhammad. Angels in the first place were created with the sole nature to receive orders and apply them. Gabriel was generally the connection from God. Different messages and tasks could take place in such a role. Jesus was mentioned in the Quran way much more than Muhammad. That gives Jesus a special place, but it does not belittle Muhammad.

B. Actually, Muhammad did obtain Christian and Jewish teachings audibly from Christians and Jews. God even told Muhammad in the Quran to refer to them for some teachings. Some of those teachings that show clearly even these days are the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth teaching, forbidding adultery and fornication, and forbidding eating pork.

 

[outhouse]

Or is it about Muhammad being illiterate? .

Everyone was illiterate back then, reading and writing were not needed.

 

[outhouse]

Angels in the first place were created with the sole nature to receive orders and apply them.

.

They do not exist.


Where are they today?

If they existed they would not live only in ancient mens mythology.

 

[outhouse]

Gabriel was generally the connection from God.

.

Many different cultures and religions all argue how to talk to god, because none of them are right.

He was only a connection in your culture and the only reason you think this is not direct knowledge, it is because you have faith in ONE FORM of ancient mens mythology.


Fact, all religious cultures make different claims of this, and there is no reason or logic what so ever that substantiates any of the claims.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Everyone was illiterate back then, reading and writing were not needed.

Just for your own sake, please contemplate on what you just said above.

They do not exist.

Where are they today?

If they existed they would not live only in ancient mens mythology.

Many different cultures and religions all argue how to talk to god, because none of them are right.

He was only a connection in your culture and the only reason you think this is not direct knowledge, it is because you have faith in ONE FORM of ancient mens mythology.

Fact, all religious cultures make different claims of this, and there is no reason or logic what so ever that substantiates any of the claims.

Again with your fundamentalism and the other-ism you keep talking about?

And disturbing a flow of a thread?

Dude, if you have so much free time to waste on off-topic stuff, start your own threads for it. Don't disturb a discussion of things related to the topic that the OP'er and I have some kinda mutual understanding in, with spam.

Outhouse, please man, think before you act. I beg if you :sad4:

 

[outhouse]

And disturbing a flow of a thread?

Dude start bring credible sources to the table if you have a point to make.

Your opinion means nothing and carries no credibility.


Not a single word you posted addresses my reply. I am sorry your religion leaves you with no credible evidence to bring to the table.