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Muhammad's Sword !!!

kai

ragamuffin
fullyveiled muslimah said:
I am not interested in sugar-coating anything, and I don't think I have been anyway. I also nver denied that muslims did have an army, nor did I deny that there was muslim expansion. So now I'm confused about your point.

I don't care if people dont think Islam is a PC religion because it isn't. Whether people like it or agree with it doesn't matter to me. I contend that Islam is not this horrible thing that only causes harm rather than any benefit. Now if we wanna talk about what certain groups of muslims are doing then I guess we can talk about that. That might be worth a discussion although I haven't the slightest idea why some muslims are so violence prone.
you are not one of those that deny all history and i applaud you for that, to clear up any confusion my point has always been the same that Islam was spread so wide and so rapidly due to the Islamic military expansion from the 6th to 14th centuries. islam had a unique capacity to assimilate people of course in most cases this took hundreds of years. i do not beleive Islam is this horrible thing that only causes harm either, i am just talking history or lack of it
 

kai

ragamuffin
not4me said:
Conquest of Mecca:In 628 the Meccan tribe of Quraish and the Muslim community in Medina signed a truce called the Treaty of Hudaybiyya. Despite improved relations between Mecca and Medina after the signing of the Treaty of Hudaybiyya, a 10 year peace was to be broken by Quraish who, with their allies, the tribe of Bakr, attacked the tribe of Khuza'ah who were allies of the Muslims and it was possibly not known to the Pagan tribes at the time. However, this broke the treaty which forbad any fighting between Muslim, Quraysh and their allies. Abu sufyan, the leader of the Quraish in Mecca, was aware that the balances were now tilted in Muhammad's favour, went to Medina to restore the treaty but Muhammad refused to accommodate him and Abu Sufyan returned to Mecca empty handed.
An approximately 10,000 strong Muslim army marched towards Mecca which soon surrendered
peacefully. Muhammad demanded that the pagan idols around the Ka'aba be destroyed. Abu Sufyan converted to Islam and Muhammad announced
"Who enters the house of Abu Sufyan will be safe, who lays down arms will be safe, who locks his door will be safe".
Then Muhammad turning to the people said:
"O ye Quraish, what do you think of the treatment that I should accord you.?"
And they said, "Mercy, O Prophet of Allah. We expect nothing but good from you."
Thereupon the Holy Prophet declared: "I speak to you in the same words as Joseph spoke to his brothers. This day there is no reproof against you; Go your way, for you are free."
Muhammad's prestige grew after the surrender of the Meccans. Embassies from all over Arabia came to Medina to submit to him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_Mecca


Comment: can somebody explain to me how the meccan peolple embraced Islam by the sowrd here??!
Peace be upon You Prohet Muhammad!

you have a nack of answering your own questions
 

fullyveiled muslimah

Evil incarnate!
michel said:
Oh, I agree with you; no doubt.



Unfortunately, history tells us that it is Muslims who are terrorists - and they are proud to admit it. The security saervices in the U.K have busted a few cells, and have thwarted various planned attacks.

The Muslims interviewed on television were almost unanimous that they would never reveal any plot to terrorise if they were aware of one, because "Muslims must help each other".

I am sorry, but in my book, Muslims living in England have their prime alligience to the country in which they live. To not tell the authorities of impending attacks of which they are aware is, at best, collusion to terrorism, and treatcherous behaviour.

If they cannot respect the law of the land, they ought not to be living here.


Possibly, but the effect is the same; it makes them angry at us.

Ok Michel I am not a terrorist. My friends are not terrorists. I have never committed such an act in my lifetime, and Im just not interested in it. However I do consider myself a devout muslim. If Islam is responsible for the spawning of terrorists, shouldn't I be one? I really can't be a devout muslim without the arbitrary murder of someone right? I will never admit to being a murderer. I will never admit that Islam is a religion for those who are murderous at heart. Quran is not a book about murders and bloodlust. One thing I think non-muslims forget is that muslims are human beings. We are prone to the same crap that anyone else is. We have lives, hopes, dreams, jobs, families, concerns, troubles, ups, and downs like all the other people in the world. There are the good of us and the bad of us. The just and the unjust, the cruel and the kind. Muslims are not mindless robots who only dream of killing kuffar and bombing people. We dont eat, sleep, and breathe the death of all those who do not profess islam. Since when are we not people? I am not a monster. And don't say that you weren't talking about me personally, because you said muslims were terrorists and I'm a muslim, so therefore you are referring to me and all the muslims across the world.
 

fullyveiled muslimah

Evil incarnate!
MidnightBlue said:
When Muslim terrorists claim responsibility for terrorist acts, is that just media deception? Is CNN holding their families hostage, threatening to behead them, unless the innocent Muslims lie about their involvement in terrorist acts? What would it take for you to believe that many Muslims are involved in terrorist acts?

So then you would be open to information from those same sources that support the fact that muslims had nothing to do with it? Same media outlets the support the idea that muslims had everything to do with 9/11 can be used to say the opposite. Ever heard of Loose Change, or are they a bunch of conspiracy theory nutcases?

I'm careful to get my information from a variety of sources, not just American sources, but European and Middle Eastern as well. I'm a regular reader of new reports by Muslims. It's not as if I were watching Fox News.

The news source doesn't have to be american per se. Any news media outlet can be used to serve a specific agenda. When I was younger I remember the Russians being in a similar boat as muslims are in now with being the enemy. The media through news and television and even movies helped promote the idea that Russians were evil people. Turns out that was just a bunch of bs.

But the question is ludicrous to begin with. What does media mean, but books, television, magazines, newspapers, and the internet? Where, besides the media, does anyone seek information? The Psychic Friends Network?

You think I ask ludicrous questions? I don't think I ask stupid questions. It was a fair one in my opinion. All I was really asking was for you to think outside the box that news media gives you. It is unthinkable to me how these muslims that were so poor and didn't speak alot of good english, could perform an elaborate attack on American soil all unbeknownst to any American intelligencia. They used major airports and airlines to carry out the attacks, and with airplanes they caused two skyscrapers to collapse to the ground. Supposedly the building "burned so hotly" that the very core of teh buildings just melted into nothingness. All of this caused by jetfuel. I was just asking if any of these things make any sense to you. Have you thought about it like this? Many people haven't, but on the other hand many have and they aren't just muslims that are grasping blindly at straws to clear their name or uphold Islam. Many people I have met believe that muslims had nothing to do with such a disgraceful and sad event. All I was saying is maybe you should look at it from another point of view thats all. Is that ludicrous to ask? If you think its a stupid question then just dont respond to it.
 

Ulver

Active Member
I still find it funny that people are still saying all of this is because of Religion. Far from! It's the consequences of European Imperialism, Colonial Devestation, crappy EU policies of (a lack of) cultural intergration and the fall of the Sovient Union.

DEAL WITH THOSE! NOT THE BIBLE OR THE QURAN!

You all are complaining about the symptoms, not the causes.
 

fullyveiled muslimah

Evil incarnate!
Ulver said:
I still find it funny that people are still saying all of this is because of Religion. Far from! It's the consequences of European Imperialism, Colonial Devestation, crappy EU policies of (a lack of) cultural intergration and the fall of the Sovient Union.

DEAL WITH THOSE! NOT THE BIBLE OR THE QURAN!

You all are complaining about the symptoms, not the causes.


Agreed Ulver. I have been meaning to respond to some of your earlier posts that addressed this point. There are factors having more to do with politics in places where Islam is simply a backdrop. I do believe that any violence coming from that area of the world has little to do with anyones religion. If we look at suicide bombers for instance, we all understand that that is not normal human behaviour. So we must ask ourselves what makes a person do such a thing. Why do these people feel that sacrificing their own lives as well as the lives of others is something they should do? There must be a cause, and I think its a cop out to say its Islam and then leave it at that, without investigating any other possibilities for such abnormal behaviour. So I said all that to say that I agree with you.......
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
fullyveiled muslimah said:
Ok Michel I am not a terrorist. My friends are not terrorists. I have never committed such an act in my lifetime, and Im just not interested in it. However I do consider myself a devout muslim.

I am absolutely delighted to hear it.

I am sure that is the case, and that there are thousands like you; unfortunately, what people hear about religions is most often the 'bad apples'; with Roman Catholicism, it's usually problems with pedophile priests.

That is why I keep trying to get the message accross that good followers of Islam (like you) should get together and do something about the terrorists. We all know deep down that all Muslims are not terrorists, but that is the message that the terrorists put over. I can assure you, you have my sympathy; I believe you and respect you for what you say you are. But it needs your type of follower of Islam to 'turn in' the bad guys, and to get the world to see the value of the devout follower who is not a terrorist.
 

Ulver

Active Member
michel said:
I am sure that is the case, and that there are thousands like you; unfortunately, what people hear about religions is most often the 'bad apples'; with Roman Catholicism, it's usually problems with pedophile priests.

That is why I keep trying to get the message accross that good followers of Islam (like you) should get together and do something about the terrorists. We all know deep down that all Muslims are not terrorists, but that is the message that the terrorists put over. I can assure you, you have my sympathy; I believe you and respect you for what you say you are. But it needs your type of follower of Islam to 'turn in' the bad guys, and to get the world to see the value of the devout follower who is not a terrorist.

The Catholic Church and in general a majority of Catholics haven't tried to do much about the pedophile problem. Matter of fact look at this: Deliver us from Evil
 

kai

ragamuffin
Ulver said:
I still find it funny that people are still saying all of this is because of Religion. Far from! It's the consequences of European Imperialism, Colonial Devestation, crappy EU policies of (a lack of) cultural intergration and the fall of the Sovient Union.

DEAL WITH THOSE! NOT THE BIBLE OR THE QURAN!

You all are complaining about the symptoms, not the causes.
all of what! how about Ottoman imperialism/colonialism they ruled for centuries its their legacy the world was left with
 

kai

ragamuffin
fullyveiled muslimah said:
Agreed Ulver. I have been meaning to respond to some of your earlier posts that addressed this point. There are factors having more to do with politics in places where Islam is simply a backdrop. I do believe that any violence coming from that area of the world has little to do with anyones religion. If we look at suicide bombers for instance, we all understand that that is not normal human behaviour. So we must ask ourselves what makes a person do such a thing. Why do these people feel that sacrificing their own lives as well as the lives of others is something they should do? There must be a cause, and I think its a cop out to say its Islam and then leave it at that, without investigating any other possibilities for such abnormal behaviour. So I said all that to say that I agree with you.......
as for suicide bombers lets investigate this possibility for such abnormal behaviour "shahada" as known in Palestinian Islam.

Understanding Shahada - Death for Allah & Jihad

http://www.pmw.org.il/
 

Ulver

Active Member
kai said:
all of what! how about Ottoman imperialism/colonialism they ruled for centuries its their legacy the world was left with

My general point was that Politics, Empires and Greed have caused most of the grief in this world. Religion is just a pretty mask that's worn over the true intentions of those who shape the world.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Ulver said:
My general point was that Politics, Empires and Greed have caused most of the grief in this world. Religion is just a pretty mask that's worn over the true intentions of those who shape the world.
oh i see what you mean
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Ulver said:
The Catholic Church and in general a majority of Catholics haven't tried to do much about the pedophile problem. Matter of fact look at this: Deliver us from Evil

I was jusquoting the point to explain that no Religion is pure white; if you wish to discuss that, you will need to start another thread for that topic.
 

kai

ragamuffin
michel said:
I was jusquoting the point to explain that no Religion is pure white; if you wish to discuss that, you will need to start another thread for that topic.
hear hear!
 

Smoke

Done here.
fullyveiled muslimah said:
So then you would be open to information from those same sources that support the fact that muslims had nothing to do with it? Same media outlets the support the idea that muslims had everything to do with 9/11 can be used to say the opposite. Ever heard of Loose Change, or are they a bunch of conspiracy theory nutcases?
Of course I've heard of Loose Change, and I've watched their movie, read their materials, and given a lot of thought to their arguments. However, there are already several threads devoted to 9/11 conspiracy theories, and I'm not going to debate those theories in this thread.

Even if it could be shown that Shrub's regime were behind the 9/11 attacks, or complicit in them -- and it hasn't be shown, by the way -- Muslim terrorism is not limited to 9/11. I'm not talking about one incident. I'm talking about hundreds, even thousands of incidents -- about a worldwide pattern of behavior. And more specifically, I'm talking about actual historical data, not speculation and theories.

Not 4me has introduced a number of points of interest, and while I'm very pressed for time today, I hope to return to those points tomorrow. Your attempt to question whether Muslim terrorism even exists, however, is completely without merit -- and no new facts about 9/11 could change that.
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
kai said:
amazing how you have completely ignored the prolonged seige do you think no one died no bloodshed, the city surrendered!
kai said:
your post reinforces the fact that Egypt was invaded and conquered
Well, i guess u won't find any muslim who says there were no islamic expansions and we (muslims) are very proud of this and never be ashamed of such thing!

The second point; from those examples we can see that those countries were under the rule of byzantines not the natives and we can see how the natives of these countries were persecuted and welcomed the islamic opening.
And thus the muslim army was fighting the byzantine army.

But what iam trying to prove that the citizens of those countries were not forced to convert to Islam!
And thus embracing Islam wasn't by force and history is my witness as u saw in my previous posts.

Yes, muslims built a huge empire by armies but they did not force anyone to embrace Islam.
But by their justice and good deeds, people reverted to Islam, Alhamdulillah!

And at last i would like to say; actually it doesn't matter if u are convinced that islam is a peaceful religion or not, ur free to think what u want but at least we do our best to prove that it's not a religion of violence or a religion of persecution or oppression jsut doing our best regardless of what the result is.
 

fullyveiled muslimah

Evil incarnate!
kai said:
as for suicide bombers lets investigate this possibility for such abnormal behaviour "shahada" as known in Palestinian Islam.

Understanding Shahada - Death for Allah & Jihad

http://www.pmw.org.il/

I went to the page but I didn't click on any videos. That whole thing is disturbung because of a few reasons. They make a distinction of palestinian Islam. What is that? I have never heard of it. The second problem is that one cannot attain the status of shuhadah through suicide. Suicide is a major sin in Islam and Allah does not reward it. There is no situation that I am aware of that Islam gives permission to commit suidicide. The status of a shaheed in islam can be attained in several different ways, but not suicide. A woman who has died giving birth to her child is considered a shaheed for the cause of Allah. A muslim who is killed in defense of the life, property, and or family of his neighbor can attain shaheed status. One who is supposedly fighting in the way of Allah can only attain shaheed status if the intention is good. He cannot have been the aggressor, nor could he have been the one in the wrong. Muslims dying or being killed does not automatically mean that they are martyrs for Islam.

I find it interesting that it is called Palestinian Islam. I guess they mean the type of Islam that the palestinians supposedly practice. One has not and cannot attain piety and righteousness through the wanton killing of themselves and innocent bystanders. In Quran Allah states clearly for us what He consideres al-birr or righteousness:

It is not Al-Birr that you turn your faces to the east and the west (in prayers) but al-birr is (the quality) of the one who believes in Allah, the last day, the angels, the book, the prophets and gives his wealth in spite of his love for it, to the kinsfolk, the orphan, and to the poor, and to the wayfarer and those who ask, and to set slaves free, perform salaat and give zakaat, and who fulfil their covenants when they make it, and who are patient in extreme poverty, ailments, and at the time of fighting. Such are the people of truth and they are righteous. (2:177)

This is the core of what piety means to a muslim who is trying to really practice Islam. Where the verse does mention fighting it also mentions to have patience when faced with a situation where one may have to fight. A muslim who is regurlary displaying the above-mentioned qualities cannot also be bloodthirsty killer and a terrorist.

To say that Islam supports the killing of any non-muslim whether they are combatants in a war or not, is to say that it is a very confused religion. On the one hand Quran contains verses like this. Many people would agree that many of the qualities listed above are desireable for any person to have. On the other hand Quran supposedly contains verses about the killing of innocent people in whatever situation you might find them in. That is very contradictory. Either Allah wants us to be good people who practice humanitarian actions, or He wants us to be cold-hearted killers. Can't be both. It only makes sense that where Quran does speak on war and when it could be acceptable to fight, that guidelines be given with that.

I think this is where the muslims and the non-muslims in this discussion part ways. I think the root problem is that non-muslims cannot reconcile that if Islam is said to be a peaceful religion why does the book on which it is based make any mention at all of fighting. My answer to that is that Islam as a whole is designed to deal with all facets of life, and all situations that can and will arise in life. Violence has always been apart of the human experience. It would have made no sense to leave out any and all rulings pertained to fighting from the Quran. If these laws and rules had been left out, then muslims would have no guidance if and when a time came that they are actually attacked due to their religion. If Allah were to have said that all fighting under any circumstance was prohibited, Islam would have died out a long time ago. That might actually be a good thing for some people, but not for the muslims.

However, Allah did prescribe fighting as can be seen in Quran, but also rules and limitations were established. Why did Allah set these rules? Because He knows that there will be those among the muslims who will trangress the limits set. Allah warns of the punishment for such offences. Do you all think that muslims believe we are exempt from the punishment of Allah? Of course not. We are just as suscpetible to being thrown into the hellfire as the next person for our gross trangression. There have been and will continue to be those muslims who go astray from the straight path, and committ all sorts of wrongdoings and injustices, including persecution of people for no reason, tyranny, oppression, murder, theft, etc. Any thing you can percieve as wrong I am willing to guarantee that a muslim somewhere has done it.

I accept the reality that everything muslims do is not golden and precious. Thats not logical anyway. What i reject is the blaming of Islam as a religion for the worngs of its so-called followers. Thats a major cop out to me, as I believe people are responsible for their own actions and must take responsibility for it. IF a muslim committs adultery then they must accept the consequence for it. We can't say that Islam teaches us to be adulterers when clearly it does not. If any person committ worngdoings then they can;t make excuses about it.

I think we have effectively established that terrorism and killing of innocents is wrong and inexscusable. Now what is going to be done? The honest answer for us muslims to give is that we dont know what is to be done. It is obvious to me that major changes should happen to the entire system of government in places where people feel the need to act so ugly with one another. How do I change a government? I think it is up to the citizens of these countries to unify and overthrow a corrupt government. I have no idea how to help with such a thing. I dont think just saying it's wrong is enough. All a rally does is let the people around me know that I do not support terrorism or whatever, but at the end of the day what will we accomplish? Will the terrorists be watching Fox news to see the rally? IF they could, do you all think that will effect them when the conditions that they feel are causing their behavior has not changed?
 

Peace

Quran & Sunnah
fullyveiled muslimah said:
So now my question is that if Islam was mainly spread by the sword, we'll say about 95% of the time, then I have a question.

If this is the case, and more than half the people became muslim by sheer force of arms, then why does Islam continue to spread?

When the Islamic empires fell, and the muslims no longer possessed such strength of arms, why didn't the spread of ISlam come to a grinding halt?

If Islam was mainly spread by force then by definition of that, it should never have spread at all. If it was spreading like that, we would probably be surprised at the number of people who would rather die than accept such a religion.

Is it that difficult to believe that a person would actually accept Islam of their own accord?

I'm going to tell a littel known story about Muhammad (saw) and the way he used to invite the heads of a state to Islam.

Muhammad would have letters dictated and sent to the king or ruler of a state, country, or province. The letter contained an introduction of who he was, and what his mission consisted of. Also it contained an invite to accept Islam. He would send a delegation of muslims to that ruler in peace and bearing gifts. He usually received one of three types of responses:

A) The ruler would reject Islam. However, it was with kindness. In these cases an alliance would be formed by way of a treaty, basically stating that neither the muslims nor the kuffar of that state would raise arms and enmity against one another. They would thereafter enjoy a peaceful relationship, whereby trade and other business could take place.

B) The ruler would reject Islam. However, it was with hatred. Usually in those cases the envoy would be brutally murdered and an army raised to meet Muhammad (saw) and the rest of the muslims. We know that in those days, and even now if a peaceful group of delegated are sent to another country and they are killed, then that is a declaration of war. Obviously, the muslims raise their army and meet for battle. Majority of the time the muslims were victorious in battle. After a leader has been soundly defeated a few things must take place. Either the ruler accepts Islam, he rejects Islam but must come to an agreement whereby they cannot raise another army against the muslims, or they refuse both terms and is either killed in order to remove all threat of future retaliation, or is exiled. MOst likely the result of a sound defeat is that the defeated country comes under muslim rule. This happened alot. I guess this is where people get this idea that Islam is such a bad religion that the only way people will join it is under threat of death.

C) The ruler would accept islam. Whne this happened usually the entire country became muslim without ever drawing one sword. This happened more often then people know. The rulers of countries back then were highly religious alot of times. A ruler would consult with their viziers and clergy, and come to the conclusion that they believed Muhammad was who he claimed to be. The reason that this approach was taken of addressing the head of state, was because it worked with the various tribes of arabia. If the chieftain of a tribe were to accept Islam then it was a good chance that his fellow tribesmen who trusted and respected the leader, would follow his lead. This is why the letters were dictated and sent to a ruler rather than approach the citizens of a country. It was also respectful. If the citizens are converted then this will make a bad impression on the ruler. It will seem like sneaking and it makes a problem in the country. There could be much civil disturbance, and if enough citizens are disturbing the peace then it can make everyone elses life miserable. If enough people become muslim in that way, then they could possibly be heavily persecuted or killed in their own homeland.

What I am saying is that Islam has had its share of wars. During the time of the prophet and the four rightly guided khalifs, no one went to the extremes and killed civilians, or misinterprated whole verses and therby conquered lands and people unjustly. However, as time went by the muslims were further removed from the justice of Islam, and because they became enamoured of worldy wealth and power, corruption began to take place. Early in the era of the prophet, even the enemies of Islam respected it and the muslims for their overall just behaviour. Even in war their enemies knew that muslims were not going to commit war crimes and excesses, and they admired them for it as much as an enemy can admire you. When the muslims lost sight of what was important and placed value on worldy matters, justice and peace were replaced by tyranny and oppression. This is not true of all Islamic empires but it is true of some of them.

Great post sister!!! Well said :clap

Salam,
Peace
 

kai

ragamuffin
not4me said:
Well, i guess u won't find any muslim who says there were no islamic expansions and we (muslims) are very proud of this and never be ashamed of such thing! unfortunately i find many muslims who deny anny military expansion.

The second point; from those examples we can see that those countries were under the rule of byzantines not the natives and we can see how the natives of these countries were persecuted and welcomed the islamic opening. Is this your opinion?
And thus the muslim army was fighting the byzantine army. yes so !

But what iam trying to prove that the citizens of those countries were not forced to convert to Islam!
And thus embracing Islam wasn't by force and history is my witness as u saw in my previous posts.

Yes, muslims built a huge empire by armies but they did not force anyone to embrace Islam.
But by their justice and good deeds, people reverted to Islam, Alhamdulillah!
well lets just take Syria invaded in circa 636 untill the fall of the Ottomans circa 1918 thats 1289 years of muslim rule i am not surprised they are muslim

And at last i would like to say; actually it doesn't matter if u are convinced that islam is a peaceful religion or not, ur free to think what u want but at least we do our best to prove that it's not a religion of violence or a religion of persecution or oppression jsut doing our best regardless of what the result is.
no it doesnt matter what i beleive and you may be following the peaceful tennets of Islam but lots of others follow a different line but peace be upon you for debating the subject.
 
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