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Muslim Reform Movement

illykitty

RF's pet cat
There's actually a few groups like that around, if one is willing to dig a little. Since I'm not a Muslim so my opinion won't mean much, but I like how there's more and more of them popping up. I don't think it makes them non-Muslims, it just makes them people with rational minds that still love their religion but recognise certain things are outdated, that there are better laws that to them doesn't contradict Islam but rather expands on the ideas. It's like Islam was giving a starting point for humanity, not the end goal. For instance, a lot of people say laws about slavery didn't mean that Islam encouraged it, but rather to gradually liberate them. Then why not treat other laws and ideas the same? We've come a long way, and still have a long way to go, but progress has been made and these Muslims recognise that. They use their intellect, the brain that Allah gave them. It would be such a waste to not use it!

I don't understand why some insist to live like it's still the 7th century instead of updating.

No it doesn't work that way. There are clear rules about that in the Quran and only allowed to marry with permission with girls who reached the age of puberty.


They haven't got the right idea, they are sugarcoating Islaam just so people like you can say 'muslims are humans too'. As for me as a muslim, i don't need your approval. I know that Islaam does not teach anything hurtful

I reached puberty at 10. At that age I was still a child, my body was not fully formed. I compare pictures of me then and now (at 26), there's an obvious difference. And I'm just talking about physical differences, not mental or emotional ones. That rule is clearly outdated and is one of many examples where updating would be beneficial. We no longer live in the year 630, things have changed.

I bring to you actual life experience, it's impossible to argue against. Puberty is only the beginning of the transformation into womanhood, it isn't the ending. I would argue that marrying at that age would be indeed something I'd consider harmful and immoral.

Then there's countless of other topics... What would Islam do with Atheists, Pagans and anyone else that's not Abrahamic? What about homosexuals, transsexuals or people who want to leave Islam? Some answers I have come across in the past sounded quite harmful or even deadly.

I've got nothing against Muslims, as long as they're willing to either co-exist with everyone else. It goes for everyone else too. I don't do double standards.
 

Useless2015

Active Member
Would you care to put a number to that feeling? More specifically, a verifiable statistic such as a survey of all or most of the world's Christian population that backs up your point of view?

Lets start with the Roman Catholic Church who have 1.2 billion members? They all view the Bible as the inspired word of God.
 

Useless2015

Active Member
Says the person who (presumably) believes it's acceptable to make non-Muslims pay extra taxes because they're non-Muslims. Do you even understand the level of cognitive dissonance required to believe your above statement and that the application of the jizyah is moral at the same time?!

There is nothing wrong in paying a form of tax to pay for equipment, administration, employees etc. Everyone in an Islaamic caliphate has to chip in basically.
 

cocolia42

Active Member
This seems fantastic to me. A group of Muslim scholars (albeit from "the West"), who are addressing the problems of modern Islam, and seem to be addressing those problems honestly!

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7009/muslim-reform-movement

I'm especially interested in hearing what the Muslims at RF think about this declaration, but of course everyone can pile on :)

(I have to confess they had me when they mentioned the UN Declaration of Human Rights.)

Don't like it.

To reform Islam would be what we call bidah. And it's a major sin.
And a Muslim should not choose secular law over Islamic law. I find it quite interesting that these people said, "We are for secular governance...We oppose institutionalized sharia. Sharia is manmade."

There is no problem with Islam. There is a problem with people not taking the time to learn it and there is a problem with people wanting to follow their own desires while still claiming to be Muslim.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
And a Muslim should not choose secular law over Islamic law.

That would be severe admitted fanaticism.

It is terribly sad that anyone would throw away academia, reason, and logic in favor of religious and mythological based laws.

There is no problem with Islam.

Except for it breeding the highest amount terrorism and violence out of any other religion.

Except for the refusal of education and knowledge and history.

Except for being the most illiterate of all religious groups.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
There is a problem with people not taking the time to learn it and there is a problem with people wanting to follow their own desires while still claiming to be Muslim.

Except what ever sect you may be, ends up murdering those whom you personally feel does not worship correctly.

Is that not a lack of tolerance ?

The sectarian violence in islam has been nothing but pathetic.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Lets start with the Roman Catholic Church who have 1.2 billion members? They all view the Bible as the inspired word of God.

There are approximately over 2.4 billion Christians right now. So that's less than half. And, according to more learned people here, there is not a single verse in the Bible that speaks out against same-sex marriage. As an example: 57% of American Catholics believe gays and lesbians should be allowed to get married.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/07/29/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

In the Republic of Ireland - Europe's most loudly Catholic nation - 62% of those who cast their ballot voted to give same-sex weddings legal recognition & protection.

According to the University of Muenster, the majority of 12,000 Catholics from over 42 countries who responded to a survey answered in favour of same-sex marriage.

https://www.uni-muenster.de/news/view.php?cmdid=7836
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Its a law concerning non-muslims only thats why.
This is just circular reasoning. I understand that it's a law concerning non-muslims, which is why I am asking WHY non-muslims are singled out if "everyone has to chip in?" It is facially discriminatory.
 

Useless2015

Active Member
This is just circular reasoning. I understand that it's a law concerning non-muslims, which is why I am asking WHY non-muslims are singled out if "everyone has to chip in?" It is facially discriminatory.

Well again, there are also laws concerning MUSLIMS only. Do you think that is discriminatory?
 

Useless2015

Active Member
There are approximately over 2.4 billion Christians right now. So that's less than half. And, according to more learned people here, there is not a single verse in the Bible that speaks out against same-sex marriage. As an example: 57% of American Catholics believe gays and lesbians should be allowed to get married.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/07/29/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

In the Republic of Ireland - Europe's most loudly Catholic nation - 62% of those who cast their ballot voted to give same-sex weddings legal recognition & protection.

According to the University of Muenster, the majority of 12,000 Catholics from over 42 countries who responded to a survey answered in favour of same-sex marriage.

https://www.uni-muenster.de/news/view.php?cmdid=7836

Not a single verse? Are we really doing this? The Bible clearly states that gays should be put to death.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
There is nothing wrong in paying a form of tax to pay for equipment, administration, employees etc. Everyone in an Islaamic caliphate has to chip in basically.

That's not what the jizyah is for. Non-Muslims are already expected to pay all the same taxes (which already cover the cost of the things you listed above) as Muslims. The jizyah is designed to financially segregate & weaken non-Muslims and act as an incentive for them to convert to Islam. Mandating that non-Muslims be made to suffer an extra tax burden in order that they not be harassed by Muslims for being of different faith is discriminating against those non-Muslims.

The Qu'ran and hadith advocate violence against religious minorities who don't want to be financially discriminated against.

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Muslim (19:4294) - "If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Bukhari (53:386) - "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master."

Ishaq 956 & 962 - "He who withholds the Jizya is an enemy of Allah and His apostle."

These verses all justify the same tactics used by criminals - extort money from would-be victims in return for holding off physical violence. It's commonly called 'protection money'. @paarsurrey should take a look at this post as well since we had an argument about this very subject a few months back.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
That's not what the jizyah is for. Non-Muslims are already expected to pay all the same taxes (which already cover the cost of such things) as Muslims. The jizyah is designed to financially segregate & weaken non-Muslims and act as an incentive for them to convert to Islam. Mandating that non-Muslims be made to suffer an extra tax burden in order that they not be harassed by Muslims for being of different faith is discriminating against those non-Muslims.

The Qu'ran and hadith advocate violence against religious minorities who don't want to be financially discriminated against.

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Muslim (19:4294) - "If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Bukhari (53:386) - "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master."

Ishaq 956 & 962 - "He who withholds the Jizya is an enemy of Allah and His apostle."

These verses all justify the same tactics used by criminals - extort money from would-be victims in return for holding off physical violence. It's commonly called 'protection money'. @paarsurrey should take a look at this post as well since we had an argument about this very subject a few months back.
Troubling, to say the least.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Not a single verse? Are we really doing this? The Bible clearly states that gays should be put to death.
The OT does, but there aren't many Christians who feel that the OT must still be adhered to. Not to mention, not even the OT speaks to same-sex marriage in any way, shape, or form. So, GreasedScottsman has got you there.
 
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