Muslims and Christians Only: Was Jesus Crucified Or Not?

[FearGod]

It is hard for you to understand because you don't believe about existence of the soul.

Are you Christian or Muslim ?

 

[Brickjectivity]

The crucifixion is a fixture for Christians. It is like concrete.

First of all, the church martyrs follow Jesus example. It is important to Christians that Jesus obeyed the Father even so far as accepting death in a criminal fashion. It sets the pattern for the martyrs who also accepted death following his example. Also many of the Jewish prophets in the Bible were hated at times or accepted abuse to prove their sincerity. This is something Muslims may not think about much, since Jesus isn't their top prophet. Their top prophet did not have to endure persecution like Jesus did or like many of the prophets in the Bible. He was instead a successful person who gave orders and did not have to die like a criminal. I feel that is odd, but I'm not Muslim. Similarly I think Muslims have a hard time with the concept of Christian martyrdom which is briefly explained in I Peter and is called 'Bearing the sins of others'. Muslims do not have this concept of bearing sins, but for Christians it is always present. A very famous and an old quote is "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church."

Also if Jesus does not die a horrible death, the death of someone who is opposed to God, it also messes with atonement outlined in Hebrews.. atonement depends upon A. a sinless man B. punished as if he is a sinner. C. Resurrected with a perfected body. This is impossible to change without changing or removing Hebrews.

Jesus death and crucifixion is recorded in all four canonical gospels. If you remove these gospels, then Christians don't have much to talk about.

 

[Union]

The crucifixion is a fixture for Christians. It is like concrete.

First of all, the church martyrs follow Jesus example. It is important to Christians that Jesus obeyed the Father even so far as accepting death in a criminal fashion. It sets the pattern for the martyrs who also accepted death following his example. Also many of the Jewish prophets in the Bible were hated at times or accepted abuse to prove their sincerity. This is something Muslims may not think about much, since Jesus isn't their top prophet. Their top prophet did not have to endure persecution like Jesus did or like many of the prophets in the Bible. He was instead a successful person who gave orders and did not have to die like a criminal. I feel that is odd, but I'm not Muslim. Similarly I think Muslims have a hard time with the concept of Christian martyrdom which is briefly explained in I Peter and is called 'Bearing the sins of others'. Muslims do not have this concept of bearing sins, but for Christians it is always present. A very famous and an old quote is "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church."

Also if Jesus does not die a horrible death, the death of someone who is opposed to God, it also messes with atonement outlined in Hebrews.. atonement depends upon A. a sinless man B. punished as if he is a sinner. C. Resurrected with a perfected body. This is impossible to change without changing or removing Hebrews.

Jesus death and crucifixion is recorded in all four canonical gospels. If you remove these gospels, then Christians don't have much to talk about.

Did the Gospel authors or Jesus' 12 disciples witness Jesus' crucifixion ?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Did the Gospel authors or Jesus' 12 disciples witness Jesus' crucifixion ?

That is a good question and another one is "Why not?" One apostle sees him on the cross. No witnesses are mentioned except for Jesus himself and God, but that is a good thing and has to do with the internal and private nature of the war between good and evil in people. The justice of his death is exceptional as he himself and his heavenly father are the two witnesses of his own guilt, which is explained by Paul to be the guilt of the sin in his flesh. The twist is his resurrection which separates the judgement against his human frailness from a judgement against his actions. (This explanation all depends upon Paul and is explained by no one else, but Paul and the gospels and various letters are transmitted together.) The bottom line is that no witnesses of Jesus death are mentioned, because he and his Father perform the judgement and are the witnesses in all things concerning Jesus. Including bystander witnesses of his death would subtract from the judgement against his flesh since it cannot be witnessed externally. It is, by Paul, considered to be the judgement that proves all human beings are the same regardless of their external appearance or the lottery of their birth.

 

[YmirGF]

It is hard for you to understand because you don't believe about existence of the soul.

Are you Christian or Muslim ?

Actually, FearGod, it isn't that I don't believe in the soul, it is more a case of disliking the term intensely due to the unnecessary baggage that those two religions and others have given the term "soul". As I have stated, since the day I arrived on RF and for decades prior to that, I am a personality energy essence that is currently ensconced in a physical body. I understand things a bit more clearly that your beliefs allow for.

 

[FearGod]

Actually, FearGod, it isn't that I don't believe in the soul, it is more a case of disliking the term intensely due to the unnecessary baggage that those two religions and others have given the term "soul". As I have stated, since the day I arrived on RF and for decades prior to that, I am a personality energy essence that is currently ensconced in a physical body. I understand things a bit more clearly that your beliefs allow for.

And what is the difference between your term " energy essence" and the "soul"

 

[YmirGF]

And what is the difference between your term " energy essence" and the "soul"

That is the cakemix for another thread, my weary friend.

 

[seeking4truth]

Jesus was crucified, ie. hung on the cross, but he didn't die there. That is clear from the Biblical description of his activities afterwards.

How could Thomas put his finger on Jesus wounds if Jesus was not injured on the cross?
How could Jesus come out of the tomb meet his friends and eat with them if he did not revive?

 

[Sabour]

Regarding this subject, here is my first arguement.

It all began with Jesus peace be upon him said that he came to fulfill the law.

According to the law, everything that is crucified would be cursed.

Deuteronomy 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

So being able to crucify Jesus peace be upon him would disprove who he was because if he did come to fulfill the law, he can't be cursed by that law.

This is a video that explains it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMat9Iz8dPE

 

[seeking4truth]

The crucifixion is a fixture for Christians. It is like concrete.
This is something Muslims may not think about much, since Jesus isn't their top prophet. Their top prophet did not have to endure persecution like Jesus did or like many of the prophets in the Bible.

Please read a description of the life of Muhammad. You will find that he endured 13 years of persecution, death threats etc before he escaped and emigrated to Medina.

It is not true that he didn't suffer persecution.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Deuteronomy 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

So being able to crucify Jesus peace be upon him would disprove who he was because if he did come to fulfill the law, he can't be cursed by that law.

Sounds interesting, however following the gospel story he was taken down the same day that he was crucified and was not left hanging. He might have been left there had not honourable Joseph of Arimathea requested his body. That is what the gospels record, and they also go to the trouble of recording that he was not dead for more than the three days that caused a sacrifice to become invalid. Isn't it a moot argument anyway since Muslims don't believe he was ever crucified to begin with?

 

[Sabour]

Sounds interesting, however following the gospel story he was taken down the same day that he was crucified and was not left hanging. He might have been left there had not honourable Joseph of Arimathea requested his body. That is what the gospels record, and they also go to the trouble of recording that he was not dead for more than the three days that caused a sacrifice to become invalid. Isn't it a moot argument anyway since Muslims don't believe he was ever crucified to begin with?

I am basing my answer from the bible.

As a muslim, here is what I believe.



4:157 And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

4:158
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

3:55
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Perhaps this is one area that many Christians would not disagree with Muslims about. "That Allah raised him to himself" sounds identical to what most Christians believe, because most Christians believe that only his body died not his spirit. Congratulations you are now a Christian! :angel2: This English translation (for I don't know how to read Koran) does not specify whether Jesus was bodily taken up or whether his life was preserved, and this matters a lot to most Christians. Only some Christians believe that Jesus was completely snuffed. Perhaps it is not an area of agreement though, and I'm only guessing based upon your translation of an isolated piece of Koran.

 

[Sabour]

Perhaps this is one area that many Christians would not disagree with Muslims about. "That Allah raised him to himself" sounds identical to what most Christians believe, because most Christians believe that only his body died not his spirit. Congratulations you are now a Christian! :angel2: This English translation (for I don't know how to read Koran) does not specify whether Jesus was bodily taken up or whether his life was preserved, and this matters a lot to most Christians. Only some Christians believe that Jesus was completely snuffed. Perhaps it is not an area of agreement though, and I'm only guessing based upon your translation of an isolated piece of Koran.

Just a clarification. If christianity means someone who follows the teaching of Jesus peace be upon him, than yes I am a christian too. But I don't believe in the bible except for what is true in the Quraan.

Anyways, here is an answer to what you have came to conclude.

Is Jesus Dead or Alive? - Islamic Creed - counsels - OnIslam.net

Jesus peace be upon him was raised alive, if that is your question. And he will come again to kill the antichrist

 

[Union]

That is a good question and another one is "Why not?" One apostle sees him on the cross. No witnesses are mentioned except for Jesus himself and God, but that is a good thing and has to do with the internal and private nature of the war between good and evil in people. The justice of his death is exceptional as he himself and his heavenly father are the two witnesses of his own guilt, which is explained by Paul to be the guilt of the sin in his flesh. The twist is his resurrection which separates the judgement against his human frailness from a judgement against his actions. (This explanation all depends upon Paul and is explained by no one else, but Paul and the gospels and various letters are transmitted together.) The bottom line is that no witnesses of Jesus death are mentioned, because he and his Father perform the judgement and are the witnesses in all things concerning Jesus. Including bystander witnesses of his death would subtract from the judgement against his flesh since it cannot be witnessed externally. It is, by Paul, considered to be the judgement that proves all human beings are the same regardless of their external appearance or the lottery of their birth.

You sound very practical and in the same time very obscure . Paul even didn't see Jesus nor heard any single word from jesus' mouth - how come he knew about Jesus' crucifixion and his life ? and please don't mention his 'self-claimed' vision of Jesus etc. otherwise I have also so many stories about Jesus in my bag . On my way to my work I saw Jesus calling me from my back seat , 'Behold Union........'

Whatsoever , you are quite right that there was no witnesses of Jesus' crucifixion from the NT narrators/ his 12 disciples and whatever they mentioned about it is nothing but conjecture .

 

[Union]

Jesus was crucified, ie. hung on the cross, but he didn't die there. That is clear from the Biblical description of his activities afterwards.

How could Thomas put his finger on Jesus wounds if Jesus was not injured on the cross?
How could Jesus come out of the tomb meet his friends and eat with them if he did not revive?

According to 4.157 , he was not killed nor crucified - hence the swoon theory is probably against the Qur'an .

 

[Brickjectivity]

You sound very practical and in the same time very obscure . Paul even didn't see Jesus nor heard any single word from jesus' mouth - how come he knew about Jesus' crucifixion and his life ? and please don't mention his 'self-claimed' vision of Jesus etc. otherwise I have also so many stories about Jesus in my bag . On my way to my work I saw Jesus calling me from my back seat , 'Behold Union........'

Whatsoever , you are quite right that there was no witnesses of Jesus' crucifixion from the NT narrators/ his 12 disciples and whatever they mentioned about it is nothing but conjecture .

I was not arguing to convince you to become Christian. The crucifixion has nothing to do with evidence, because evidence can be manufactured. In Christianity the faithfulness of believers is the evidence that causes the next generation to believe. Physical evidence is used by charlatans to make money and has no true value in Christianity. There is no value in an 'Original' piece of the cross, no 'Shroud', no bones of Jesus, no miraculous cup. There is also no original copy of the NT, but it doesn't matter to Christians.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I was not arguing to convince you to become Christian. The crucifixion has nothing to do with evidence, because evidence can be manufactured. In Christianity the faithfulness of believers is the evidence that causes the next generation to believe. Physical evidence is used by charlatans to make money and has no true value in Christianity. There is no value in an 'Original' piece of the cross, no 'Shroud', no bones of Jesus, no miraculous cup. There is also no original copy of the NT, but it doesn't matter to Christians.

Of course there's not going to be any bones of Jesus, because He ascended bodily to Heaven.

Anyway, I see no reason to believe the Qur'an, a book written centuries after the fact, over the Gospels that were written within decades of the event.

 

[FearGod]

That is the cakemix for another thread, my weary friend.

 

[Sabour]

Here is another argument. I think it was mentioned before.

The disciples has heard that Jesus peace be upon him was crucified and were not eyewitness

Mark 14:50 And they all forsook him, and fled.

So that the disciples , they had heard that he was DEAD AND BURIED FOR THREE DAYS. If one is confronted by a person with such a reputation then the conclusion is inescapable; they must be seeing A GHOST. Little wonder these ten brave men were petrified."

So now let us look at the verses.

Luke 24 36-37 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.


(They thought that Jesus peace be upon him was dead and they thought what they were seeing is a spirit. So Jesus peace be upon him wanted to prove to them that this is not the case.)

And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

(He ate to prove what?)

Also

Acts 1:3 o whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: