Muslims and Christians Only: Was Jesus Crucified Or Not?

[Union]

I was not arguing to convince you to become Christian. The crucifixion has nothing to do with evidence, because evidence can be manufactured. In Christianity the faithfulness of believers is the evidence that causes the next generation to believe. Physical evidence is used by charlatans to make money and has no true value in Christianity. There is no value in an 'Original' piece of the cross, no 'Shroud', no bones of Jesus, no miraculous cup. There is also no original copy of the NT, but it doesn't matter to Christians.

I like your simplicity and straight way to put the thought . The OP called Muslims to debate on the issue here and hence we are intending to scrutinize Jesus' crucifixion as much as possible . But if you propose that it is all about faith and belief , nothing to do with evidence , then it shall be done on your own way , no offense at all . Thanks mate .

 

[Union]

Of course there's not going to be any bones of Jesus, because He ascended bodily to Heaven.

Anyway, I see no reason to believe the Qur'an, a book written centuries after the fact, over the Gospels that were written within decades of the event.

You don't have to believe in Qur'an . Start from your Gospel and show us first that the people who propagated the incident of crucifixion , whether they witnessed the crucifixion of Jesus or not ? If yes , then we will go the next stage of debate but if no then you have to bring some external scientific and archaeological evidences to prove the case . I do appreciate if you take everything logically with open mind . Thanks .

 

[Farrukh]

Crucifixion is most painful execution of culprit.
As a Muslim, I believe that Crucifixion of Jesus(pbuh) never occurred,
Those Jews who accepted Jesus(pbuh) as prophet were true believers(they were Muslims of their time),
rest of the Jews who had rejected him become disbeliever, Jews(who rejected him) were obviously enemy of Jesus(pbuh) and wanted to kill him, when they tried to get him, God almighty took Jesus(pbuh) from earth and saved him, they crucified someone else and they were very confused about their claims of Crucifixion of Jesus and Holy Quran mentions about their confusion.

I believe God almighty never rejects prayers of prophets, most of the prayers of prophets were answered immediately and many were answered with some delay. if you check holy scriptures, you will find that Jesus prayed for his life

"During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission." Hebrews 5:7

why should God reject prayers of Jesus pbuh?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You don't have to believe in Qur'an . Start from your Gospel and show us first that the people who propagated the incident of crucifixion , whether they witnessed the crucifixion of Jesus or not ? If yes , then we will go the next stage of debate but if no then you have to bring some external scientific and archaeological evidences to prove the case . I do appreciate if you take everything logically with open mind . Thanks .

Witnesses of the crucifixion and death of Jesus:

...But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" 27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. (John 19:25-27)

So, yes - prominent followers of Christ witnessed His crucifixion and death, including Mary, His mother, and the Apostle St. John.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Crucifixion is most painful execution of culprit.
As a Muslim, I believe that Crucifixion of Jesus(pbuh) never occurred,
Those Jews who accepted Jesus(pbuh) as prophet were true believers(they were Muslims of their time),
rest of the Jews who had rejected him become disbeliever, Jews(who rejected him) were obviously enemy of Jesus(pbuh) and wanted to kill him, when they tried to get him, God almighty took Jesus(pbuh) from earth and saved him, they crucified someone else and they were very confused about their claims of Crucifixion of Jesus and Holy Quran mentions about their confusion.

I believe God almighty never rejects prayers of prophets, most of the prayers of prophets were answered immediately and many were answered with some delay. if you check holy scriptures, you will find that Jesus prayed for his life

"During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission." Hebrews 5:7

why should God reject prayers of Jesus pbuh?

His prayer wasn't rejected, as Jesus was raised from death (the Resurrection).

 

[Farrukh]

His prayer wasn't rejected, as Jesus was raised from death (the Resurrection).

death is not called Resurrection, what are you trying to say?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

death is not called Resurrection, what are you trying to say?

Did I say that? No. I said that God did answer Jesus' prayer as He was saved from death via the Resurrection. The Letter to the Hebrews never once says that Jesus wasn't crucified and died. No New Testament writing says that, but you are trying to twist verses when the meaning is apparent when placed into context.

 

[FearGod]

It is good that we are talking about Jesus pbuh as just a man,that is great.

Now the 2nd step after realizing the fact that Jesus was a man and was sent by God and not God himself is.

Did Jesus pbuh deserve punishment on the cross ?

Does God punish and torture the good people to save the bad ones ?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It is good that we are talking about Jesus pbuh as just a man,that is great.

Well, we're not talking about the Trinity.

Now the 2nd step after realizing the fact that Jesus was a man and was sent by God and not God himself is.

"Realized"? Um, no. Jesus is fully God and fully man, but that's not the topic of this thread.

Did Jesus pbuh deserve punishment on the cross ?

No, He didn't.

Does God punish and torture the good people to save the bad ones ?

In this case, He did as a showing of His mercy and compassion. Jesus willingly took on the sins of the world out of love for us poor sinners who cannot save themselves. This was a plan that God came up with to reconcile humanity to Him before Heaven and earth were even created ("the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world" (Revelation 13:8).

 

[FearGod]

Well, we're not talking about the Trinity.

We were talking about a human being and whether if God raised him alive or tortured him on the cross.

"Realized"? Um, no. Jesus is fully God and fully man, but that's not the topic of this thread.

That is your own words

His prayer wasn't rejected, as Jesus was raised from death (the Resurrection).

Do you mean that Jesus was praying to himself and he accepted his own prayers ?

No, He didn't.

In this case, He did as a showing of His mercy and compassion. Jesus willingly took on the sins of the world out of love for us poor sinners who cannot save themselves. This was a plan that God came up with to reconcile humanity to Him before Heaven and earth were even created ("the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world" (Revelation 13:8).

When God crucifies himself on the cross and feels the pains then our sins are forgiven.

Is God that poor that he can't forgive sins except by torturing himself ?

 

[Farrukh]

Do you mean that Jesus was praying to himself and he accepted his own prayers ?

he will need time for it, actually it needs lot of effort for proving right, something that is wrong.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

We were talking about a human being and whether if God raised him alive or tortured him on the cross.

That is your own words

Do you mean that Jesus was praying to himself and he accepted his own prayers ?

There's a lot of ignorance amongst those who deny the Trinity over what the Trinity actually is. Jesus was praying to the Father. The Son is not the Father. The Father is not the Son. They are Persons that make up the Trinity.

Christ is also fully man. Much of His ministry on Earth was to demonstrate how we should live and how we should approach God. In doing that, He would pray to His Father like a human being would, as an example.

When God crucifies himself on the cross and feels the pains then our sins are forgiven ?

Like I said, the Son is not the Father.

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). For a sin to be forgiven, you must make a sacrifice. The Jews did that with animal sacrifices but that was a temporary and imperfect system and was but a foreshadowing of the ultimate and perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God - Jesus. As the animal died in the place of the sinner in OT religion, Jesus dies in the place for all sinners under the new and eternal Covenant. It was a perfect sacrifice because Jesus was perfectly holy and innocent and willfully gave Himself up out of pure love. Of course animal sacrifices don't come close to that because it's not the animal's choice. They don't have a say in it. But Jesus knew from before the creation of the world that He would die for us and He accepted His mission on Earth for humanity.

Is God that poor that he can't forgive sins except by torturing himself ?

He could, but that's not the system that He put in place. Aside from the forgiveness of sins and the reconciliation of humanity to God, the suffering and death of Christ is a perfect example of God's infinite love for all of us. Jesus' life was a perfect example of love in action. " 13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.(John 15:13) How great is our God that He chooses to suffer and die for wretched sinners. How great is His unfailing love.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

he will need time for it, actually it needs lot of effort for proving right, something that is wrong.

It doesn't take much time to set straight a misunderstanding that someone has due to ignorance.

 

[FearGod]

There's a lot of ignorance amongst those who deny the Trinity over what the Trinity actually is. Jesus was praying to the Father. The Son is not the Father. The Father is not the Son. They are Persons that make up the Trinity.

So it is due to ignorance and you know what trinity is and the others failed to know.

So Jesus wasn't praying to God but to his father and Jesus was fully human and fully God but the father isn't the son and the God (father) isn't the God (Jesus), sounds logic.:sarcastic

Christ is also fully man. Much of His ministry on Earth was to demonstrate how we should live and how we should approach God. In doing that, He would pray to His Father like a human being would, as an example.

So he was praying to his father so we can learn to pray similarly to his father.only as an example.

How did you know that ?

Like I said, the Son is not the Father.

And who is God,the son or the father or both.

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

Death is a normal process and it isn't a wage for our sins.
Everything die, do ants die as a wage of their sins ?

For a sin to be forgiven, you must make a sacrifice. The Jews did that with animal sacrifices but that was a temporary and imperfect system and was but a foreshadowing of the ultimate and perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God - Jesus. As the animal died in the place of the sinner in OT religion, Jesus dies in the place for all sinners under the new and eternal Covenant. It was a perfect sacrifice because Jesus was perfectly holy and innocent and willfully gave Himself up out of pure love. Of course animal sacrifices don't come close to that because it's not the animal's choice. They don't have a say in it. But Jesus knew from before the creation of the world that He would die for us and He accepted His mission on Earth for humanity.

So Jesus pbuh came to earth by his own choice and he accepted the mission before the creation of this world.

I wonder if you came to earth by your choice too.

Will you accept to be tortured to pay for the sinners,rapists,murderers,varmints..etc

He could, but that's not the system that He put in place.

What system ? Is God a machine and programmed in working by specific system.

 

[Union]

Witnesses of the crucifixion and death of Jesus:

...But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" 27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. (John 19:25-27)

So, yes - prominent followers of Christ witnessed His crucifixion and death, including Mary, His mother, and the Apostle St. John.

Thanks for your reply. If you read my inquiry attentively , you would see that I was asking the witnesses from Jesus' 12 disciples and/or from the authors of Gospels . They were are the prime source of the transmission of the incident of crucifixion not anybody else . Also Jesus himself choose those 12 disciples for his ministry and preaching the world his message . Now let us see your list :

...But standing by the cross of Jesus were (1)his mother, and (2) his mother's sister, (3) Mary the wife of Clopas, and (4) Mary Mag'dalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother, and (5)the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" 27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. (John 19:25-27)

None of the 05 people stated above are the Gospel narrators nor among from Jesus’ 12 disciples.

 

[Desert Snake]

So it is due to ignorance and you know what trinity is and the others failed to know.

Not all Christians are Trinitarians. All real Christian doctrine will seem similar, however.

So Jesus wasn't praying to God but to his father and Jesus was fully human and fully God but the father isn't the son and the God (father) isn't the God (Jesus), sounds logic.:sarcastic

I think it's Jesus the man praying. Remember, as man he was part human(like us), therefore prayed, worked, fished etc.

 

[FearGod]

I think it's Jesus the man praying. Remember, as man he was part human(like us), therefore prayed, worked, fished etc.

That means Jesus pbuh was a man on earth and as God in heaven.

Do that means we have 2 Gods in heaven, or Jesus and his father will be emerged together.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Just a clarification. If christianity means someone who follows the teaching of Jesus peace be upon him, than yes I am a christian too.

There is no person who can tell you who is or who is not a Christian, but it is someone who is very dedicated to disciples of Jesus and probably is very ecumenical or very non-judging. You cannot of course decide what another person is like and what they truly deserve, and neither can I. I believe that Muslims approach truth differently than non Muslims, but one's approach to truth does not define whether they are Christian. When we discuss things our approach appears different, and we are tempted to judge each other. Truth is with God, not with you or me. Perfect truth is an ideal, and we are limited. "Let God be true and every man a liar." That is the foundation of submission to God. Submission is not about judging other people's thoughts and pretending to see into their souls. It is about submitting yourself including your pride in your truth, and it is not easy.

 

[Sabour]

There is no person who can tell you who is or who is not a Christian, but it is someone who is very dedicated to disciples of Jesus and probably is very ecumenical or very non-judging. You cannot of course decide what another person is like and what they truly deserve, and neither can I. I believe that Muslims approach truth differently than non Muslims, but one's approach to truth does not define whether they are Christian. When we discuss things our approach appears different, and we are tempted to judge each other. Truth is with God, not with you or me. Perfect truth is an ideal, and we are limited. "Let God be true and every man a liar." That is the foundation of submission to God. Submission is not about judging other people's thoughts and pretending to see into their souls. It is about submitting yourself including your pride in your truth, and it is not easy.

And God revealed to us this truth. There is no chance that God leaved us to love on our own.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So it is due to ignorance and you know what trinity is and the others failed to know.

So Jesus wasn't praying to God but to his father and Jesus was fully human and fully God but the father isn't the son and the God (father) isn't the God (Jesus), sounds logic.:sarcastic



So he was praying to his father so we can learn to pray similarly to his father.only as an example.

How did you know that ?



And who is God,the son or the father or both.

You would know that if you bothered to study the doctrine. There's many articles about it:

Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Trinity Explained, in Easy Terms
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity
The Incarnation | Frank Sheed | From "A Map of Life" | Ignatius Insight

I can provide more, if you have more specific questions.

Death is a normal process and it isn't a wage for our sins.
Everything die, do ants die as a wage of their sins ?

We were not meant to die. Nothing was. We are living in a fallen world of imperfection. Adam's sin brought death into the world.

So Jesus pbuh came to earth by his own choice and he accepted the mission before the creation of this world.

Yes.

I wonder if you came to earth by your choice too.

Will you accept to be tortured to pay for the sinners,rapists,murderers,varmints..etc

I'm not God. I'm an imperfect human being, so why bother asking me? I'm not that selfless, to die for such a screwed up species like humans. If I were God, I'd probably have wiped humanity completely out long ago. So I'm not the person to ask. Thankfully, the true God is much, much more merciful than I am.

What system ? Is God a machine and programmed in working by specific system.

The system that God chose to enact for the forgiveness of sins. He could do it any way He pleases, but that's the way He chose to do it.