The common definition of what a Christian basically believes is the Nicene Creed. You're free to disagree but the vast majority of Christians won't agree with you.
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Muslims and Christians Only: Was Jesus Crucified Or Not?
- Thread starter ZooGirl02
- Start date
The common definition of what a Christian basically believes is the Nicene Creed. You're free to disagree but the vast majority of Christians won't agree with you.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I think merged, this seems to be the 'standard' opinion of Real Christians. It's a little confusing but once you read the literature it makes more sense. On a good note, it eliminates polytheism.
Btw, one can come to that conclusion without a lot of study, it isn't some strange idea.
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Then why not to believe in one God,why father and son.
Lets assume that God was a man in one period of time and that period was ended by the death of human God, so i think it doesn't make sense to still worship the human God.
Why Jesus pbuh prayed to God ?
One answer was to teach us how to pray, but that isn't true because he was praying and not teaching.
Mark 1:35 [ Jesus Prays in a Solitary Place ] Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed.
Mark 14:32 [ Gethsemane ] They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, Sit here while I pray.
Luke 3:21 [ The Baptism and Genealogy of Jesus ] When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened.
Luke 5:16 But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed.
Luke 6:12 [ The Twelve Apostles ] One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.
Luke 11:1 [ Jesus Teaching on Prayer ] One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.
That's part of it, but Jesus was also fully man as well being fully God.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
In man form Jesus was a man. With Spirit, so representing the word of God, but still human.
I assume He was praying as man, 'normally'. However notice, He claims authority as well, Jesus is different in this regard from other people.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
And why Christians worship Jesus the man,while Jesus the man worshiped God in heaven.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
They aren't, they worship Jesus the God, part of the Godhead. That's my understanding.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Jesus as you believe was the human part of God and hence he was praying to God because he was human.
So it is irrational to pray to Jesus the man while he himself was praying to God in heaven.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I'm not really sure. I don't think Christians prayed to Jesus while He was a man.
As a 'mediator', perhaps. But, not sure about that.
Did a creed die on the cross for me? No, it did not. Can it intervene with me to bring me closer to God? Apparently not. A creed written by men -- can it be right? Only if God is not right. I think in Christian letters it is called 'Confession', but I can't say for sure. Anyway creeds seem wrong to me. They don't have the ability to do what people hoped they would do.
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The vast majority of Christians use those creeds to define the Faith. Those creeds are based on both the Scriptures and the traditions that have been handed down since Biblical times. If you disagree with those creeds, that's your choice but that's how Christianity is traditionally defined and most Christians won't accept you as such.
Good point. I probably should have mentioned that myself.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
People witnessed the crucifixion of Jesus but the fact is that he wasn't Jesus.
Does it make sense to you that God tortured himself to save the sinners.
[youtube]sV4qq06uDSs[/youtube]
I Converted To Islam After Watching This Video 2013 HD - YouTube
So Mary didn't recognize her own son? John the Apostle didn't recognize his teacher?
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
i have answered this in another thread of why God let people to believe that Jesus died.
Many people in all times went astray,there is the force of evil which try to mislead them to irrational thoughts and bad deeds and the other force of logic,wisdom and good deeds.
God can guide all humans to the right path but that wasn't the purpose of the creation of man, as God created man to gain knowledge, wisdom and the free will to choose his way to live and with God's guidance through his messengers.
People through history distorted the message of God by introducing new laws and dismiss some others for some worldly purposes and that was usually done by the clerics or i may call them the hypocrites.
God sent his messengers to restore the commandments which distorted by men and that what Jesus pbuh had said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them".
God warned us that the evil got his own ways to mislead humans such as intoxication which God says in the quran that it is the way of the Satan to mislead us and hence we should avoid it.
At the time of Jesus, the Satan made people to think and believe that Jesus is the son of God and as the father himself which known as the trinity, God asked Jesus pbuh as shown in the quran (5:116)´Jesus, son of Mary, have you told people: "Take me and my mother as two gods instead of God [Alone]?´;" he said: "Glory be to You! It is not my place to say what I have no right to [say]. If I had said it, You would have known it already: You know what is on my mind, while I do not know anything that is on Yours. You are the Knower of Unseen things.
God as to end the nonsense of the trinity he enabled the Jews to crucify what they thought of him to be Jesus but he was Jesus in body but not in soul,IOW it wasn't Jesus soul that felt the pains and the punishment.
Why God made this scenario,it was just to let people to know that Jesus wasn't God or son of God.
But the evil still has his ways and he made people to believe that God killed himself to pay for their sins, so as to let them still believe that Jesus was God.
God sent the quran and promised to keep it memorized and to be saved from distortion but again the Satan find his way in some false hadith and invented stories by the Satan helpers passing it to people to mislead them as we can see nowadays,such as the story that the prophet love sex with children ..etc
The prophet said in his last sermon that the Satan will always try to distort the religion and we should be aware of him.
[youtube]i3Xc1MfX9X8[/youtube]
The Prophet Muhammad's Last Sermon - YouTube[/quote]
None of this makes a bit of sense. And you're still misunderstanding the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus is not the Father. He is the Son. Mary is not part of the Trinity. For the Qur'an to make that claim shows how ignorant Mohammad was about what Christians actually believe.
So now you're saying that Jesus' body was crucified but His soul wasn't? Huh?!
Who says that Jesus' soul was crucified? If someone is shot with a gun, is their soul injured, too? Also, Jesus Himself refers to Himself as the Son many times in the Gospels:
Jesus as 'Son of God' in the Gospels
Are you saying that Jesus lied? Plus, the Trinity was believed in from the earliest times of Christianity. Thomas referred to Jesus as "my Lord and my God" in John 20:28 and Jesus did not rebuke him for saying that. So you are trying to say that Jesus is a liar.
The Jesus in the Qur'an is not the same Jesus in the Bible. So the question is: which Jesus is the real Jesus? Mohammad created this false Jesus based on his own ignorance and agenda. But you want us to believe what he has to say about it, centuries after the fact, over what the eyewitnesses and all the early Christians had to say about it within the 1st century? You're asking us to throw reason and logic out the window, to believe that Satan has put lies in the mouth of the Biblical Jesus and His followers and that Christians were always deluded.
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
None of this makes a bit of sense. And you're still misunderstanding the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus is not the Father. He is the Son. Mary is not part of the Trinity. For the Qur'an to make that claim shows how ignorant Mohammad was about what Christians actually believe.
So now you're saying that Jesus' body was crucified but His soul wasn't? Huh?!
Also, Jesus Himself refers to Himself as the Son many times in the Gospels:
Jesus as 'Son of God' in the Gospels
Are you saying that Jesus lied? Plus, the Trinity was believed in from the earliest times of Christianity. Thomas referred to Jesus as "my Lord and my God" in John 20:28 and Jesus did not rebuke him for saying that. So you are trying to say that Jesus is a liar.
The Jesus in the Qur'an is not the same Jesus in the Bible. So the question is: which Jesus is the real Jesus? Mohammad created this false Jesus based on his own ignorance and agenda. But you want us to believe what he has to say about it, centuries after the fact, over what the eyewitnesses and all the early Christians had to say about it within the 1st century? You're asking us to throw reason and logic out the window, to believe that Satan has put lies in the mouth of the Biblical Jesus and His followers and that Christians were always deluded.
Seymour quotes from Meyrick's "Working of the Church in Spain," the form of doxology admired in that country:
"Glory be to the Father,
Glory be to the Son,
Glory be to the Holy Ghost,
Glory be to the Holy Virgin,
Throughout all ages, forever and ever. Amen."
Reference: THE WORSHIP OF THE VIRGIN MARY
They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Third of Three. No god is there but One God. If they refrain not from what they say, there shall afflict those of them that disbelieve a painful chastisement. (5:73)
The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; his mother was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear the signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are! (5:75)
to whom belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth; and He has not taken to Him a son, and He has no associate in the Kingdom; and He created every thing, then He ordained it very exactly.(25:2)
Glory be to the Son,
Glory be to the Holy Ghost,
Glory be to the Holy Virgin,
Throughout all ages, forever and ever. Amen."
Reference: THE WORSHIP OF THE VIRGIN MARY
They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Third of Three. No god is there but One God. If they refrain not from what they say, there shall afflict those of them that disbelieve a painful chastisement. (5:73)
The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; his mother was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear the signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are! (5:75)
to whom belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth; and He has not taken to Him a son, and He has no associate in the Kingdom; and He created every thing, then He ordained it very exactly.(25:2)
Seymour quotes from Meyrick's "Working of the Church in Spain," the form of doxology admired in that country: "Glory be to the Father,
Glory be to the Son,
Glory be to the Holy Ghost,
Glory be to the Holy Virgin,
Throughout all ages, forever and ever. Amen."
Reference: THE WORSHIP OF THE VIRGIN MARY
They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Third of Three. No god is there but One God. If they refrain not from what they say, there shall afflict those of them that disbelieve a painful chastisement. (5:73)
The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; his mother was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear the signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are! (5:75)
to whom belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth; and He has not taken to Him a son, and He has no associate in the Kingdom; and He created every thing, then He ordained it very exactly.(25:2)
Lol. So it's come down to you quoting stupid anti-Catholic sites and Qur'an verses to me? It seems that this discussion is at an end.
Union
Well-Known Member
I don't think so . The very first query I had still not answered from any Christian. I asked that who witnessed Jesus' crucifixion from his 12 dispels and/or the authors of Gospel as they were the prime sources of the propagation of this incident .
Saint Frank took the attempt to answer me and from my post#55 , he also kept quite as the evidences he tried to show was not listing any of Jesus' 12 disciples .
I hope you may can take over from Saint Frank , and continue .
My argument was those people who preached Jesus' crucifixion didn't witness the incident and hence there is already a big loop hole rationally as the second hand witness can never be a strong proof .