Muslims: Can God Manifest Himself on Earth?

[InvestigateTruth]

To me, personally, I think it says something along these lines:

God will make Himself known to people (through their hearts, dreams, signs, etc), and not all will recognise Him easily, expecting another sign that's more personalised, possibly even looking for a physical sign. God will once again make His presence known to them, and they will know Him.

Ok, however God always make Himself known to people (through their hearts, dreams, signs, etc). But in this particular hadith it is said:


".... On the Day of Resurrection, people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship...."-Sahih Bukhari 1:770

If the Day of Resurrection is the Last Day on Earth, and on that day some go to Hell and Some go to heaven, what is the point of "ordering the people to follow what they used to worship"?

A Good Parallel to this Hadith, is the Two Promised One of Islam, Mahdi and Christ return. In fact it is their mission to bring back the original religion of God for people.

Specially the hadith states that Allah speaks twice. Once can be through Mahdi, another time through Christ.

 

[Breathe]

Ok, however God always make Himself known to people (through their hearts, dreams, signs, etc). But in this particular hadith it is said:

".... On the Day of Resurrection, people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship...."-Sahih Bukhari 1:770

If the Day of Resurrection is the Last Day on Earth, and on that day some go to Hell and Some go to heaven, what is the point of "ordering the people to follow what they used to worship"?

In Islamic thought, everyone is born Muslim, and become other religions from emulating our parents and/or society's religious and cultural norms.

A Good Parallel to this Hadith, is the Two Promised One of Islam, Mahdi and Christ return. In fact it is their mission to bring back the original religion of God for people.

Specially the hadith states that Allah speaks twice. Once can be through Mahdi, another time through Christ.

Possibly.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Possibly.

Therefore, going back to Quran, which promises meeting with Lord:

"He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord." 13:2

We notice the Hadith explains the same verse, for it addresses their question:

"O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?...."

Then Apostle of Allah replies: yes, you will meet Him Twice! But you do not recognize Him!


Quran has thousands of verses regarding Day of Resurrection and meeting with Lord.
Then there are thousands Hadithes about Mahdi and Christ.
From the forgoing analysis I think it is reasonable to say, those verses in Quran can all be a parallel to coming of the Two Promised Ones, expressed by Figurative verses.

In fact this verse is another sign:

They will say, Our Lord! Twice You have made us die, and twice You have given us life! Now we have confessed our sins: is there any way out [of this]? Quran 40:11

It prophecises that God will make them die twice, and give them life twice!

 

[Breathe]

We notice the Hadith explains the same verse, for it addresses their question:

"O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?...."

Then Apostle of Allah replies: yes, you will meet Him Twice! But you do not recognize Him!

Quran has thousands of verses regarding Day of Resurrection and meeting with Lord.

But this may not mean a physical 'seeing' of God in the way you are thinking.

لَمۡ یَلِدۡۙ وَ لَمۡ یُوۡلَدۡ
وَ لَمۡ یَکُنۡ لَّهّ کُفُوًا اَحَدٌ​

"He begets not, nor is He begotten,
and there is none comparable to Him."

Then there are thousands Hadithes about Mahdi and Christ.

But the two should not be conflated; the Mahdi and Christ are not seen as God, and Islam does not accept that God incarnates on Earth.

They will say, Our Lord! Twice You have made us die, and twice You have given us life! Now we have confessed our sins: is there any way out [of this]? Quran 40:11

It prophecises that God will make them die twice, and give them life twice!

The ayah indicated is explained as thus:

The state before birth is a sort of death and the end of this life is the second death. The birth and the Resurrection are the two lives.

The Holy Quran

"The first state of death is the state of nothingness from which man is brought into existence, the second life being the life after death."
English Translation and Commentary of Chapter 43 [Section 2] of the Holy Quran (by Maulana Muhammad Ali)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But the two should not be conflated; the Mahdi and Christ are not seen as God, and Islam does not accept that God incarnates on Earth.

Certainly Islam does not teach God incarnation.
But what Islam teachs is, God 'manifests' His 'Will and Attributes' on earth by reflecting them on His Messengers who are like Mirrors.

For example in Sufi Islam, Muhammad is described as Mirror of God who reflects Him.

"God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; the likeness of His Light is as a niche wherein is a lamp..." (Quran 24:35)


From early times there have been interpretations of this ayat in which the niche (mishkat) is understood as Muhammad, be it his body, or his heart, reflecting the rays of God's Light (nur, plural anwar). Perhaps we can relate to this the following passage from the Futuhat:

The most excellent, balanced and correct of mirrors is Muhammad's mirror, so God's self-disclosure within it is more perfect than any other self-disclosure there may be. You should struggle to gaze on the Self-disclosing Real in the mirror of Muhammad so that he may be imprinted in your mirror.

An Introduction to Ibn Arabi's Mishkat al-Anwar


In an Islamic Tradition it is written that Before God made Adam He created the light of Muhammad and said,“I want to see Myself in this mirror so I created this light; this is the first light from Me.”

Speaking about the Muhammadan way

But this may not mean a physical 'seeing' of God in the way you are thinking.

لَمۡ یَلِدۡۙ وَ لَمۡ یُوۡلَدۡ
وَ لَمۡ یَکُنۡ لَّهّ کُفُوًا اَحَدٌ​

"He begets not, nor is He begotten,
and there is none comparable to Him."

Is there any similarities between Mirror and Infinite Sun? No. Yet, when the Mirror is placed in front of the Sun, the Image and its Light appears in the Mirror.
God created His Messengers like Mirrors. Although God is One and has no equal, yet He chooses to Manifest His Will and Attributes in these Mirrors.

Another Hadith from Muhammad says:
"I am He and He is I, save that I am I, and He is He" Hadith attributed to Muhammad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahl_al-Tustari


In Quran, Obedience to Messenger is Obedience to God:
“Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah…” Quran 4:80

Noticing that He did not say, those who obey Quran, obey Allah, but those who obey the Messenger obey Allah!

Pleading fealty to a Messenger, is Pleading fealty to God:

“In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee [O Muhammad), really plighted that fealty unto God.” Quran 48:10.

The action of Messenger is the Action of God:

“and when you (O Messenger) threw (dust at them at the start of the battle), it was not you who threw but God threw.” Quran 8:17
That means, the action and Will of God, was manifested in the Messenger.

The ayah indicated is explained as thus:

The state before birth is a sort of death and the end of this life is the second death. The birth and the Resurrection are the two lives.

The Holy Quran

"The first state of death is the state of nothingness from which man is brought into existence, the second life being the life after death."
English Translation and Commentary of Chapter 43 [Section 2] of the Holy Quran (by Maulana Muhammad Ali)

But the verse does not say, we were dead twice. It says "Twice You have made us die"

"They will say, Our Lord! Twice You have made us die, and twice You have given us life! Now we have confessed our sins: is there any way out [of this]?" Quran 40:11

I think accuracy in interpretation of the verses is important.
Do you think it is reasonable to say before we were born God had made us die?

Another possible interpretation is causing them die spiritually. In some of the verses of Quran, and Islamic Hadith, the word "dead' means spiritually dead, eventhough it does not actually says spiritually dead.(I can quote upon request)

 

[anshu]

Please provide a verse from Quran for what you say above (if there is one!)

I dont know of any such Quraanic verse but it is a simple logic. Humans and Supernatural powers are purely opposite. A human can never be God(you will have to agree with that) but God can become man, he wont do that because the moment he become a man, he loses the authority to worship(which christians will not agree but its a simple logic.) For example: fat and thin are both opposite things. one can either be fat or thin. A thin man can become fat and a fat man can become thin but a man cannot become both fat and thin at the same time. Same way, God can become man, but He wont become because, if He becomes, He is not worthy of Worship because, man requires to eat, drink, sleep, digest, excrete. But, Allah doesnt require to do that.

Yes. So, on the day of Judgment, would Allah Manifest Himself on earth? Where this meeting would take place? Which country, or place?

see, on the day of judgement, all the humans will face judgement and those who are good in faith goes to heaven and those who are not goes to hell. Most probably, believers are to be in the heaven(not all the believers but the believers with good deeds). So Allah meet them in the heaven not on the Earth.

How would the believers see God, when Quran and Bible both say, God is invisible?



"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things." Quran 16:103

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." 1 Timothy 1:17

I dont want to comment about Bible but as far as Quraan is concern the verse you mentioned above is not 16:103 it is 6:103 and that verse is regarding the people before the day of Judgement. and that is not only the place in Quraan which says that you cannot see Allah. There are many like 42:11 and 112:4. These verses are in the present world. When you or me reach Paradise or heaven then we will be able to see Him.

Ok, Allah's Face. Is it visible? Quran says He is invisible. How can you see the invisible God?

I have already answered regarding the Quraanic verse saying about the invisibility of Allah. In Paradise, believers can see Him.

Now, I want to correct myself. I have said that there is a Quraanic verse that on Friday we will see the face of Allah. It is not actually the Quraanic verse but the Hadith that believers will see the face of Allah in Paradise.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I dont know of any such Quraanic verse but it is a simple logic. Humans and Supernatural powers are purely opposite. A human can never be God(you will have to agree with that) but God can become man, he wont do that because the moment he become a man, he loses the authority to worship(which christians will not agree but its a simple logic.) For example: fat and thin are both opposite things. one can either be fat or thin. A thin man can become fat and a fat man can become thin but a man cannot become both fat and thin at the same time. Same way, God can become man, but He wont become because, if He becomes, He is not worthy of Worship because, man requires to eat, drink, sleep, digest, excrete. But, Allah doesnt require to do that.

Ok, I can agree about this.

see, on the day of judgement, all the humans will face judgement and those who are good in faith goes to heaven and those who are not goes to hell. Most probably, believers are to be in the heaven(not all the believers but the believers with good deeds). So Allah meet them in the heaven not on the Earth.

But the Hadith and verses of Quran says, Allah appears on earth, and will talk. See the Hadith in OP.

I dont want to comment about Bible but as far as Quraan is concern the verse you mentioned above is not 16:103 it is 6:103 and that verse is regarding the people before the day of Judgement. and that is not only the place in Quraan which says that you cannot see Allah. There are many like 42:11 and 112:4. These verses are in the present world. When you or me reach Paradise or heaven then we will be able to see Him.

So you mean seeing God in a physical and literal sense?

Do you think in this verse, seeing is literal:

“Hearts have they, with which they understand not, and eyes have they with which they see not!” Quran 7:179

I have already answered regarding the Quraanic verse saying about the invisibility of Allah. In Paradise, believers can see Him.

Ok, but how do you know seeing is in a physical sense. The Quran has verses that 'seeing' means, realizing and recognizing God and His Prophets, rather than literally seeing Him as an object.

 

[anshu]

But the Hadith and verses of Quran says, Allah appears on earth, and will talk. See the Hadith in OP.

I am not able to make out exactly about which verses you are talking to. I can clarify you if you quote the verse again for me.

So you mean seeing God in a physical and literal sense?

Do you think in this verse, seeing is literal:

“Hearts have they, with which they understand not, and eyes have they with which they see not!” Quran 7:179

In the above verse, I agree that seeing does not mean literal seeing. But that does'nt mean that every verse in Quraan and Hadith does not means literal seeing. There are some verses in both Quraan and Hadith where seeing does mean literal seeing and there are some where seeing does not mean literal seeing. So, you have to see the verse and Ahadith with the context. Then we can understand which are literal and which are not.

Ok, but how do you know seeing is in a physical sense. The Quran has verses that 'seeing' means, realizing and recognizing God and His Prophets, rather than literally seeing Him as an object.

In the Hadith it is said that people in the Jannah will see the "face" of Allah on Friday. How can you say that this does not mean literal seeing. If it is not literal meaning of seeing then does that mean, according to you, seeing from heart? I will give the description of the hadith in total then you might understand. But remember this is not exact hadith but its description.

It is said by Allah's messenger that when the judgement is over and those who are to be in Heaven is in Heaven and those are to be in Hell are in Hell. At that time on the day of friday, there will be an exhibition. All the people in Heaven, after the Jumma Prayer, will go to that exhibition and will be asking to each other about how is life after death. At that time, a face with very impressive, with full light(noor), a very noorani chehra(chehra=face) will appear to them.
After seeing that face, when the people return to their respective houses in Heaven, their wives and their respective Hoors will not recognize them. They say who are you, getting into my house with out my permission. then the people will say I am your husband why dont you recognise me. At that time the people realize that due to Allah's Noor, their faces are so glorified that their own wives are not recognizing them.

I hope you understand that seeing here is a literal seeing.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Anshu,

Let's go step by step. Think about these Three verses first:

First verse: "And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein" Quran 50:16

Second verse: "No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things." 16:103

Third verse: And (remember Mary)she who was chaste,therefore We breathed into her(something)of our spirit and made her and her son a token for (all)peoples Quran 21:91

From the verses it can be clearly seen that Quran says God is present everywhere. He is closer to you than your jugular vein. He sees everyone. But no one sees Him. the last verse says He is a Spirit.

From all these it means, no matter where you are, He is present there. At the same time He is present with everyone else in any place. But We do not see him. He is already present in you own home. You do not see Him.
He is already present o earth, but we don't see Him.


Islam also says on the Day of Resurrection we will meet God.

It seems to me, you are thinking God is not present here on earth. He is 'up there'. Then one day He comes down and we see Him? right?
If that's the case to me, it seems like a contradiction.

 

[anshu]

Anshu,

Let's go step by step. Think about these Three verses first:

First verse: "And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein" Quran 50:16

Second verse: "No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things." 16:103

Third verse: And (remember Mary)she who was chaste,therefore We breathed into her(something)of our spirit and made her and her son a token for (all)peoples Quran 21:91

From the verses it can be clearly seen that Quran says God is present everywhere. He is closer to you than your jugular vein. He sees everyone. But no one sees Him. the last verse says He is a Spirit.

From all these it means, no matter where you are, He is present there. At the same time He is present with everyone else in any place. But We do not see him. He is already present in you own home. You do not see Him.
He is already present o earth, but we don't see Him.


Islam also says on the Day of Resurrection we will meet God.

It seems to me, you are thinking God is not present here on earth. He is 'up there'. Then one day He comes down and we see Him? right?
If that's the case to me, it seems like a contradiction.

you want step by step then even I come step by step to you.

Your first quote Al Quraan 50:16
"And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein".

The thing you have to understand while talking about presence of Allah and verses regarding the presence of Allah is that whether you are talking about the physical presence of Allah or not. If Allah is present physically, we should be able to see Him. But we can't see Him. Leave about Muslims, any other religious people who claim that God is omnipresent cannot see God. Why??
The reason here is the verse you quoted is not talking about the physical presence. It talks about the knowledge of Allah present everywhere. and when I say knowledge of Allah, I does not mean Knowledge about Allah, I mean Allah's knowledge is present everywhere even closer to man than his own jugular vein. Physically Allah is on the Arsh but His divine knowledge is present all over the world and universe.
Allah also says in Quran 42:11 "There is nothing unto Him – Nothing like whatever unto Him" which indicates that the presence mentioned is not physical presence but the presence of Allah's knowledge. Therefore, people in India, generally say to bad people that dont do bad thing, fear God, God is seeing you. no one ever say God is with you.
this is regarding your first verse.

your second verse:
I have already corrected you in the quote regarding the verse previously again you are misquoting the same verse. The verse you mentioned is not 16:103 but it is 6:103. It says:
"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."

This verse you can understand in two ways. Firstly, by taking the word "vision" by its literal meaning or the word "vision" is also taken in the sense of plans. For example, previous president of India Mr. A.P.J. Kalam says about "vision 20 20". He plans how he want see India in the year 2020 and named it vision 2020.
First the literal meaning of vision that is sight. when the verse says that "No vision can grasp Him" that what I have been saying from the starting of our discussion that no human being can see Allah in this world until he(man) goes to Heaven.
second meaning of vision is plan. when the verse says "No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision". It "may" also mean that no man's plan can know about Allah's planning but Allah surely has the control over all the plans of a human being.

Third verse: And (remember Mary)she who was chaste,therefore We breathed into her(something)of our spirit and made her and her son a token for (all)peoples Quran 21:91

This verse you are quoting and giving the wrong meaning of the verse. I mean the verse is right but the way you understand is wrong. Your understanding is Allah is the Holy spirit. This is the wrong criteria. This is the criteria of the Christians. Christians say that The Father, The Son and the Holy spirit. these three are not three they are only one. They say when God is in original form, He is God or the Father. When He comes to manly form, He is Jesus(PBUH), when He comes to invisible or Holy form, He is Holy spirit. But they are not three they are only and three different forms.
The correct understanding of the verse is Allah is saying to Zakariya that remember Maryam([Mary]may Allah be pleased with her), though she was virgin, she gave birth to the son. That is because of Allah's Holy spirit. that verse never says Allah is Holy spirit.

To clear this for you. In Quraan Allah has said in several places that "As we created Adam(PBUH), We created Jesus(PBUH)"

This clears the discussion.
In the verse you quoted, it is clearly mentioned that "...We breathed into her our Holy Spirit....." which indicates that Allah blew His Holy spirit into Mary(may Allah be pleased with her). This never means that Allah is the Holy Spirit.

Regarding your last line that

"Islam also says on the Day of Resurrection we will meet God.

It seems to me, you are thinking God is not present here on earth. He is 'up there'. Then one day He comes down and we see Him? right?
If that's the case to me, it seems like a contradiction."

I still say that Islam does say on the day of Judgement, we will see God. "We" here means people in Heaven. People in Heaven does see Allah but not on the earth but in Heaven.

Islam never says Allah will come down to earth then we will see Him neither do I say that. Then where is the contradiction???

On the earth no one can see Allah in His physical form. But in Heaven, the people in Heaven can see Allah in His Glorious Physical form.

Hope that clarifies.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

you want step by step then even I come step by step to you.

Your first quote Al Quraan 50:16
"And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein".

The thing you have to understand while talking about presence of Allah and verses regarding the presence of Allah is that whether you are talking about the physical presence of Allah or not.

But here, you start by assuming God has a 'physical' form.
How do you know God has a physical form?

If Allah is present physically, we should be able to see Him. But we can't see Him. Leave about Muslims, any other religious people who claim that God is omnipresent cannot see God. Why??

I don't believe God has a physical body.

The reason here is the verse you quoted is not talking about the physical presence.

Neither am I saying it does.

It talks about the knowledge of Allah present everywhere. and when I say knowledge of Allah, I does not mean Knowledge about Allah, I mean Allah's knowledge is present everywhere even closer to man than his own jugular vein.

Agree.

But the verse says, God is present everywhere:

"To Allah belong (sic) the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing [002.115]

Presence does not mean a physical presence.

Physically Allah is on the Arsh but His divine knowledge is present all over the world and universe.

Where do you get the Idea, God has a physical body?

Allah also says in Quran 42:11 "There is nothing unto Him – Nothing like whatever unto Him" which indicates that the presence mentioned is not physical presence but the presence of Allah's knowledge.

Which means, God does not have a physical presence anywhere.
Note that if God had a physical form, being on earth, or Heaven, then that contradicts with "There is nothing unto Him"
For the physical body, regardless how it looks like is made of Atoms, which exist in other places. Therefore the Phrase, "There is nothing unto Him" rejects any physical attribute to Him.

your second verse:
I have already corrected you in the quote regarding the verse previously again you are misquoting the same verse. The verse you mentioned is not 16:103 but it is 6:103. It says:
"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."

This verse you can understand in two ways. Firstly, by taking the word "vision" by its literal meaning or the word "vision" is also taken in the sense of plans. For example, previous president of India Mr. A.P.J. Kalam says about "vision 20 20". He plans how he want see India in the year 2020 and named it vision 2020.
First the literal meaning of vision that is sight. when the verse says that "No vision can grasp Him" that what I have been saying from the starting of our discussion that no human being can see Allah in this world until he(man) goes to Heaven

I disagree. "No vision can take Him" means, no vision can ever take Him, being on earth or Heaven. For the reason that no vision can take Him is related to the Nature of God, which is 'Supernatural' not because He is physically located somewhere else.

second meaning of vision is plan. when the verse says "No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision". It "may" also mean that no man's plan can know about Allah's planning but Allah surely has the control over all the plans of a human being.

Could be.

Third verse: And (remember Mary)she who was chaste,therefore We breathed into her(something)of our spirit and made her and her son a token for (all)peoples Quran 21:91

This verse you are quoting and giving the wrong meaning of the verse. I mean the verse is right but the way you understand is wrong. Your understanding is Allah is the Holy spirit.

I don't think you understood me. I didn't say God is Holy Spirit. I said, God is 'Spirit', as opposed to a physical body.

The correct understanding of the verse is Allah is saying to Zakariya that remember Maryam([Mary]may Allah be pleased with her), though she was virgin, she gave birth to the son. That is because of Allah's Holy spirit. that verse never says Allah is Holy spirit.

Neither am I saying God is Holy Spirit.
The verse actually does not say, God gave Holy Spirit. It says "Our Spirit"
My point of this verse is God Himself is a Spirit. Void of Physical Body.

I still say that Islam does say on the day of Judgement, we will see God. "We" here means people in Heaven. People in Heaven does see Allah but not on the earth but in Heaven.

This Hadith says, they See Him on earth:

And in Hadith:

"O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He replied, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the full moon on a clear (not cloudy) night?" They replied, "No, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the sun when there are no clouds?" They replied in the negative. He said, "You will see Allah (your Lord) in the same way. On the Day of Resurrection, people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship. So some of them will follow the sun, some will follow the moon, and some will follow other deities; and only this nation (Muslims) will be left with its hypocrites. Allah will come to them and say, 'I am Your Lord.' They will say, 'We shall stay in this place till our Lord comes to us and when our Lord will come, we will recognize Him. Then Allah will come to them again and say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'You are our Lord.' Allah will call them, and As-Sirat (a bridge) will be laid across Hell and I (Muhammad) shall be the first amongst the Apostles to cross it with my followers. Nobody except the Apostles will then be able to speak and they will be saying then, 'O Allah! Save us. O Allah Save us.'"-Sahih Bukhari 1:770

Islam never says Allah will come down to earth then we will see Him neither do I say that. Then where is the contradiction???

See above Hadith, and this verse:

"Then shall there be another blast on it, and lo! arising they shall gaze around them: and the earth shall shine with the light of her Lord." -Qur'an 39:68-69

 

[Aamer]

Can God Manifest Himself on Earth?

If No, how do you reconcile this verse and Hadith:

"He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord." 13:2

And in Hadith:

"O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He replied, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the full moon on a clear (not cloudy) night?" They replied, "No, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the sun when there are no clouds?" They replied in the negative. He said, "You will see Allah (your Lord) in the same way. On the Day of Resurrection, people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship. So some of them will follow the sun, some will follow the moon, and some will follow other deities; and only this nation (Muslims) will be left with its hypocrites. Allah will come to them and say, 'I am Your Lord.' They will say, 'We shall stay in this place till our Lord comes to us and when our Lord will come, we will recognize Him. Then Allah will come to them again and say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'You are our Lord.' Allah will call them, and As-Sirat (a bridge) will be laid across Hell and I (Muhammad) shall be the first amongst the Apostles to cross it with my followers. Nobody except the Apostles will then be able to speak and they will be saying then, 'O Allah! Save us. O Allah Save us.'"-Sahih Bukhari 1:770


If Yes, How do you reconcile with this verse:

"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things." 16:103

God can do whatever he wants. He is the supreme creator. We are his creation. But HAS he manifested himself on Earth or begotten a son? If you believe Quran is the word of God, then the answer is NO! Not much guesswork here. Have you read Quran???

112:3 He neither begets nor is born

As for the Hadith. That's not the word of God. Written by Persians after the Persian empire was toppled by Arabs. It's meant to discredit/insult Allah, Prophet Muhammad and Muslims. Mission accomplished as the entire Muslim world now follows books written by Zoroastrians (my theory). Regardless, it's the work of enemies of Islam. Not part of Islam.

 

[anshu]

But here, you start by assuming God has a 'physical' form.
How do you know God has a physical form?

I don't believe God has a physical body.

Neither am I saying it does.

Agree.

But the verse says, God is present everywhere:

"To Allah belong (sic) the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing [002.115]

Presence does not mean a physical presence.



Where do you get the Idea, God has a physical body?





Which means, God does not have a physical presence anywhere.
Note that if God had a physical form, being on earth, or Heaven, then that contradicts with "There is nothing unto Him"
For the physical body, regardless how it looks like is made of Atoms, which exist in other places. Therefore the Phrase, "There is nothing unto Him" rejects any physical attribute to Him.




I disagree. "No vision can take Him" means, no vision can ever take Him, being on earth or Heaven. For the reason that no vision can take Him is related to the Nature of God, which is 'Supernatural' not because He is physically located somewhere else.




Could be.




I don't think you understood me. I didn't say God is Holy Spirit. I said, God is 'Spirit', as opposed to a physical body.




Neither am I saying God is Holy Spirit.
The verse actually does not say, God gave Holy Spirit. It says "Our Spirit"
My point of this verse is God Himself is a Spirit. Void of Physical Body.



This Hadith says, they See Him on earth:

And in Hadith:

"O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He replied, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the full moon on a clear (not cloudy) night?" They replied, "No, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the sun when there are no clouds?" They replied in the negative. He said, "You will see Allah (your Lord) in the same way. On the Day of Resurrection, people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship. So some of them will follow the sun, some will follow the moon, and some will follow other deities; and only this nation (Muslims) will be left with its hypocrites. Allah will come to them and say, 'I am Your Lord.' They will say, 'We shall stay in this place till our Lord comes to us and when our Lord will come, we will recognize Him. Then Allah will come to them again and say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'You are our Lord.' Allah will call them, and As-Sirat (a bridge) will be laid across Hell and I (Muhammad) shall be the first amongst the Apostles to cross it with my followers. Nobody except the Apostles will then be able to speak and they will be saying then, 'O Allah! Save us. O Allah Save us.'"-Sahih Bukhari 1:770






See above Hadith, and this verse:

"Then shall there be another blast on it, and lo! arising they shall gaze around them: and the earth shall shine with the light of her Lord." -Qur'an 39:68-69

Firstly, I want to ask you whether you are asking this to gain knowledge or to just win the argument?
If it is to win the argument then I would say: "lakum deenukum waliyadeen" meaning "to you your religion and to me mine" and end the talk.
But if you are asking to gain knowledge, then I would say regarding your first line that I started the talk assuming God has a physical form.
I still say God has a physical form, but in the verses you quoted previously it is stated not about the physical form but about the knowledge of Allah.

Next your question how do I know God has a physical form?
I know it by the Hadiths of Prophet Mohammed(s.a.w.s). the Hadith you quoted at the last of your post is one of the examples of that. and many more Hadiths like that.

next you say you dont believe that God has a physical body.
I would like to ask you who forced you to believe God has a Physical body. Dont believe it. Its your faith. and this is my faith. I believe in Prophet Mohammed(s.a.w.s) therefore I believe in Allah having physical form. and I even believe in Quraan therefore I believe that Allah has a physical form but his form is totally different from any person and anything present in this world or any other world. I even believe that Allah will not show His physical form before the day of Judgement. If you dont believe in Quran and Prophet Mohammed(s.a.w.s) then dont believe. In Islam there is no compulsion in religion and faith.

you next said:
But the verse says, God is present everywhere:

"To Allah belong (sic) the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing [002.115]

The verses you quoted says about the knowledge of Allah is present everywhere. As per your understanding, if it is said the physical presence of Allah then why did Allah said in the ending of the very same verse Allah is all-Pervading and all-Knowing?
Those verse talk about the knowledge of Allah.

Your next argument:

Which means, God does not have a physical presence anywhere.
Note that if God had a physical form, being on earth, or Heaven, then that contradicts with "There is nothing unto Him"
For the physical body, regardless how it looks like is made of Atoms, which exist in other places. Therefore the Phrase, "There is nothing unto Him" rejects any physical attribute to Him.

You said that any Physical body should be made up of atom irrespective of the shape of the body therefore contradicting the verse "There is nothing unto Him"

Here you should understand that this is your limited scientific knowledge. When you believe in Allah you should agree that there are many things that science has not reached.

Science has not reached so far to say everything. Yes I agree that everything on the face of the earth and universe is made of the atoms. But that is what i was trying to say, If you say that Allah is made up of Atoms you are doing shirk. Allah has created the universe with some thing, but that does not Allah is also made up of that thing. Saying Allah is made up of some thing is itself Shirk. Science is inferior to God but God not inferior to Science.

your next argument

I don't think you understood me. I didn't say God is Holy Spirit. I said, God is 'Spirit', as opposed to a physical body.

you are comparing Allah with spirit that is called as Shirk. As far Islam is concerned you cannot compare Allah with anything neither with spirit. Therefore, you can not say Allah is spirit.

The verse you quoted says We blew our Spirit. If you take that Allah is spirit void of human body. why blowing then? you mean Allah blew part of Him in Mary(may Allah be please with her)? Then, in that sense, Jesus(PBUH) is the small God(Allah forbids). That does not sound logical man. Allah clearly says He blew the Holy spirit into Mary(may Allah be please with her). That verse in nowhere give you even a hint that Allah is spirit.

I agree with the Hadith you quoted from Sahih Bukhari 1:770.
But where does that Hadith say Allah will come down to earth?

Regarding you Quranic verse from surah Az-Zumar 39:68-69. I will give you the authentic translation from Mohammed Yusuf Ali
the verse says:
39:68 says:
The Trumpet will (just) be sounded, when all that are in the heavens and on earth will swoon, except such as it will please Allah (to exempt).

39:69 says:
Then will a second one be sounded, when behold, they will be standing and looking on!
And the Earth will shine with the glory of its Lord:

the Record (of Deeds) will be placed (open); the prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward:

and a just decision pronounced between them; and they will not be wronged (in the least).


Please dont be misled by wrong translations.

 

[Knight of Albion]

Can God manifest Himself on Earth? 'God is love and love is of God'. When there is love in one's heart, then one is attuned to God.
The Spirit of God is made manifest through kindness and Service

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Firstly, I want to ask you whether you are asking this to gain knowledge or to just win the argument?
If it is to win the argument then I would say: "lakum deenukum waliyadeen" meaning "to you your religion and to me mine" and end the talk.

As I placed this in the debate section, it is to debate.
I believe through discussions, we can all learn.

But if you are asking to gain knowledge, then I would say regarding your first line that I started the talk assuming God has a physical form.
I still say God has a physical form, but in the verses you quoted previously it is stated not about the physical form but about the knowledge of Allah.

Next your question how do I know God has a physical form?
I know it by the Hadiths of Prophet Mohammed(s.a.w.s). the Hadith you quoted at the last of your post is one of the examples of that. and many more Hadiths like that.

next you say you dont believe that God has a physical body.
I would like to ask you who forced you to believe God has a Physical body. Dont believe it. Its your faith. and this is my faith. I believe in Prophet Mohammed(s.a.w.s) therefore I believe in Allah having physical form. and I even believe in Quraan therefore I believe that Allah has a physical form but his form is totally different from any person and anything present in this world or any other world. I even believe that Allah will not show His physical form before the day of Judgement. If you dont believe in Quran and Prophet Mohammed(s.a.w.s) then dont believe. In Islam there is no compulsion in religion and faith.

Yes, I believe in Muhammad and Quran, but I don't believe in literal interpretations of Quran. Have you read in Quran where it says "some of its verses are symbolic (Mutishabihat)"?
Do you think that all Muslims who believe in Quran and Muhammad, also believe God has a physical body?

you next said:
But the verse says, God is present everywhere:

"To Allah belong (sic) the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing [002.115]

The verses you quoted says about the knowledge of Allah is present everywhere. As per your understanding, if it is said the physical presence of Allah then why did Allah said in the ending of the very same verse Allah is all-Pervading and all-Knowing?
Those verse talk about the knowledge of Allah.

As I said, I don't believe this verse is saying He has a physical presence.
And like I said I don't disagree with you, regarding His knowledge presence.


Your next argument:

Which means, God does not have a physical presence anywhere.
Note that if God had a physical form, being on earth, or Heaven, then that contradicts with "There is nothing unto Him"
For the physical body, regardless how it looks like is made of Atoms, which exist in other places. Therefore the Phrase, "There is nothing unto Him" rejects any physical attribute to Him.

You said that any Physical body should be made up of atom irrespective of the shape of the body therefore contradicting the verse "There is nothing unto Him"

Here you should understand that this is your limited scientific knowledge. When you believe in Allah you should agree that there are many things that science has not reached.

With all due respect, my friend, This is a falasy to say " When you believe in Allah you should agree that there are many things that science has not reached."

It is well known according to science, that all physical matters are made of substances, atoms.

Let me tell you this hypothetical senraio:

a Person made an Idol yesterday, and tells us, Allah is in this Idol.
We tell him, how could Allah be in this idol when you made this.
He says: if you believe in Allah, then you must believe that Allah can do this, and you must worship this Idol now.
So, my question is, how is your argument any different than this?

your next argument

I don't think you understood me. I didn't say God is Holy Spirit. I said, God is 'Spirit', as opposed to a physical body.

you are comparing Allah with spirit that is called as Shirk. As far Islam is concerned you cannot compare Allah with anything neither with spirit. Therefore, you can not say Allah is spirit.

The verse you quoted says We blew our Spirit. If you take that Allah is spirit void of human body. why blowing then? you mean Allah blew part of Him in Mary(may Allah be please with her)? Then, in that sense, Jesus(PBUH) is the small God(Allah forbids). That does not sound logical man. Allah clearly says He blew the Holy spirit into Mary(may Allah be please with her). That verse in nowhere give you even a hint that Allah is spirit.

WHy blowing?
Have you heard of Mutishabihat verses?
(see Quran 3:7)
Blowing is not a literal blowing, for if it was 'blowing' then Allah is similar to His creation.
But according to Quran, Allah has some Names and Attributes, such as Merciful, Kind, Knowing, ...etc. These are non-materialistic qualities that come from God.
'Blowing' from His Spirit, can mean, He has Manifested these same qualities in Christ.
That means from His own spiritual non-materialistic reality He has given to His Messenger. Was not Muhammad accroding to Quran Rahman, and Raheem (Merciful and Compassionate)?

I agree with the Hadith you quoted from Sahih Bukhari 1:770.
But where does that Hadith say Allah will come down to earth?

See the parts underlined:

"O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He replied, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the full moon on a clear (not cloudy) night?" They replied, "No, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the sun when there are no clouds?" They replied in the negative. He said, "You will see Allah (your Lord) in the same way. On the Day of Resurrection, people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship. So some of them will follow the sun, some will follow the moon, and some will follow other deities; and only this nation (Muslims) will be left with its hypocrites. Allah will come to them and say, 'I am Your Lord.' They will say, 'We shall stay in this place till our Lord comes to us and when our Lord will come, we will recognize Him. Then Allah will come to them again and say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'You are our Lord.' Allah will call them, and As-Sirat (a bridge) will be laid across Hell and I (Muhammad) shall be the first amongst the Apostles to cross it with my followers. Nobody except the Apostles will then be able to speak and they will be saying then, 'O Allah! Save us. O Allah Save us.'"-Sahih Bukhari 1:770


Where is the place that " people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship"?

If you say it is in Heaven, then obviously those people in Heaven already worshipped God.

Regarding you Quranic verse from surah Az-Zumar 39:68-69. I will give you the authentic translation from Mohammed Yusuf Ali
the verse says:
39:68 says:
The Trumpet will (just) be sounded, when all that are in the heavens and on earth will swoon, except such as it will please Allah (to exempt).

39:69 says:
Then will a second one be sounded, when behold, they will be standing and looking on!
And the Earth will shine with the glory of its Lord:

the Record (of Deeds) will be placed (open); the prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward:

and a just decision pronounced between them; and they will not be wronged (in the least).


Please dont be misled by wrong translations.

Your translation if fine. If Allah does not come to earth, then why does the verse says And the Earth will shine with the glory of its Lord

 

[anshu]

As I placed this in the debate section, it is to debate.
I believe through discussions, we can all learn.


Yes, I believe in Muhammad and Quran, but I don't believe in literal interpretations of Quran. Have you read in Quran where it says "some of its verses are symbolic (Mutishabihat)"?
Do you think that all Muslims who believe in Quran and Muhammad, also believe God has a physical body?



As I said, I don't believe this verse is saying He has a physical presence.
And like I said I don't disagree with you, regarding His knowledge presence.


Your next argument:



With all due respect, my friend, This is a falasy to say " When you believe in Allah you should agree that there are many things that science has not reached."

It is well known according to science, that all physical matters are made of substances, atoms.

Let me tell you this hypothetical senraio:

a Person made an Idol yesterday, and tells us, Allah is in this Idol.
We tell him, how could Allah be in this idol when you made this.
He says: if you believe in Allah, then you must believe that Allah can do this, and you must worship this Idol now.
So, my question is, how is your argument any different than this?






WHy blowing?
Have you heard of Mutishabihat verses?
(see Quran 3:7)
Blowing is not a literal blowing, for if it was 'blowing' then Allah is similar to His creation.
But according to Quran, Allah has some Names and Attributes, such as Merciful, Kind, Knowing, ...etc. These are non-materialistic qualities that come from God.
'Blowing' from His Spirit, can mean, He has Manifested these same qualities in Christ.
That means from His own spiritual non-materialistic reality He has given to His Messenger. Was not Muhammad accroding to Quran Rahman, and Raheem (Merciful and Compassionate)?




See the parts underlined:

"O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He replied, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the full moon on a clear (not cloudy) night?" They replied, "No, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the sun when there are no clouds?" They replied in the negative. He said, "You will see Allah (your Lord) in the same way. On the Day of Resurrection, people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship. So some of them will follow the sun, some will follow the moon, and some will follow other deities; and only this nation (Muslims) will be left with its hypocrites. Allah will come to them and say, 'I am Your Lord.' They will say, 'We shall stay in this place till our Lord comes to us and when our Lord will come, we will recognize Him. Then Allah will come to them again and say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'You are our Lord.' Allah will call them, and As-Sirat (a bridge) will be laid across Hell and I (Muhammad) shall be the first amongst the Apostles to cross it with my followers. Nobody except the Apostles will then be able to speak and they will be saying then, 'O Allah! Save us. O Allah Save us.'"-Sahih Bukhari 1:770


Where is the place that " people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship"?

If you say it is in Heaven, then obviously those people in Heaven already worshipped God.




Your translation if fine. If Allah does not come to earth, then why does the verse says And the Earth will shine with the glory of its Lord

Firstly, I want to ask an apology from you because I misinterpret the word "physical". I realised that physical generally mean having solid material. I never wanted to say Allah is a solid body(Allah forbids).
I just wanted to say Allah has a form but may not be solid as human beings or any other thing has. I just said Allah has a form for us to show but we dont know that form. But saying Allah is a spirit is also a part of Shirk. Because the moment you compare Allah with any thing you know, you are doing a Shirk. So, we cannot compare Allah to even a spirit because we know what a spirit is and how it looks like and how it behaves. But we dont know any such things about Allah(SWT).

Regarding literal interpretation of Quraan and Hadith. I want to say that there are Quraanic verses and Hadith which you have to take it in literal sense. I even believe there are many verses and Hadith which are not meant to be taken in literal meanings.

You said:

"With all due respect, my friend, This is a falasy to say " When you believe in Allah you should agree that there are many things that science has not reached."

It is well known according to science, that all physical matters are made of substances, atoms."

I want to say it again to you that Science has not advanced so far to tell about Allah. Science dont even believe in the presence spirits and Jinns but Quraan says there are Jinns. Then whom do you believe science or Quraan. Definitely Quraan. Therefore I say Science has not reached so far to describe Allah. If we totally believe in science, then your and mine ancestors are apes. Then do you believe in that too?

Your hypothetical scenario:

"Let me tell you this hypothetical senraio:

a Person made an Idol yesterday, and tells us, Allah is in this Idol.
We tell him, how could Allah be in this idol when you made this.
He says: if you believe in Allah, then you must believe that Allah can do this, and you must worship this Idol now.
So, my question is, how is your argument any different than this?"

My friend, I never said you to do idol worship. By saying that I said you to do idol worship, you are throwing me to Hell. Please, I never said Allah is present in an idol. I even disagreed when you raised an argument about Allah being omnipresent. If you remember, I said Allah is not Himself present all over the world but His knowledge is present all over the world.
I also said Allah has a form but we dont know a form of Him. Where did I say Allah has a form of an idol so worship idol.

Regarding the underlined part of the Hadith you quoted:
"On the Day of Resurrection, people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship."

Does that mean Allah has to come down to earth to order His creation on the earth to worship what they used to worship.

If that is your argument then the answer is given in the same Hadith in the next part which says:
"Allah will call them[them means people who worship Allah.], and As-Sirat (a bridge) will be laid across Hell and I (Muhammad) shall be the first amongst the Apostles to cross it with my followers. Nobody except the Apostles will then be able to speak and they will be saying then, 'O Allah! Save us. O Allah Save us."

Where do you think Allah will call them? on the earth itself? If so, then why As-Sirat will be laid across the Hell if Allah calls those people on earth itself?

The verse saying "And the Earth will shine with the glory of its Lord"

Does Glory means the presence.?

I will give you the part of the verse in Arabic.
If you know Arabic you will understand.
It says
"Wa ashrakhatil ardhu binoori rabbiha"

The word "noor" is used for the meaning "reflected light". binoori Rabbiha means by the reflected light of its lord. which can also be translated as by the glory of its lord.

The word noor is used many times in the Quran to describe the light of moon. which makes it clear noor is the reflected light. And noori rabbiha means reflected light of its lord.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Firstly, I want to ask an apology from you because I misinterpret the word "physical". I realised that physical generally mean having solid material. I never wanted to say Allah is a solid body(Allah forbids).
I just wanted to say Allah has a form but may not be solid as human beings or any other thing has. I just said Allah has a form for us to show but we dont know that form. But saying Allah is a spirit is also a part of Shirk. Because the moment you compare Allah with any thing you know, you are doing a Shirk. So, we cannot compare Allah to even a spirit because we know what a spirit is and how it looks like and how it behaves. But we dont know any such things about Allah(SWT).

Hi Anshu, you are saying "we know what a spirit is and how it looks like and how it behaves"

How do we know all these about Spirit? Quran says otherwise:

And they ask you concerning the Spirit. Say: "The Spirit is from the command on my Lord, and the knowledge you were given was but very little."
al-Isra` 17:85


Could be that Allah is Spirit, but He is a different Spirit than ours? Then in that case, He won't be like us.

Regarding literal interpretation of Quraan and Hadith. I want to say that there are Quraanic verses and Hadith which you have to take it in literal sense. I even believe there are many verses and Hadith which are not meant to be taken in literal meanings.

I agree. How do we know which is literal and which is symbolic?

You said:

"With all due respect, my friend, This is a falasy to say " When you believe in Allah you should agree that there are many things that science has not reached."

It is well known according to science, that all physical matters are made of substances, atoms."

I want to say it again to you that Science has not advanced so far to tell about Allah. Science dont even believe in the presence spirits and Jinns but Quraan says there are Jinns. Then whom do you believe science or Quraan. Definitely Quraan. Therefore I say Science has not reached so far to describe Allah. If we totally believe in science, then your and mine ancestors are apes. Then do you believe in that too?

Your hypothetical scenario:

"Let me tell you this hypothetical senraio:

a Person made an Idol yesterday, and tells us, Allah is in this Idol.
We tell him, how could Allah be in this idol when you made this.
He says: if you believe in Allah, then you must believe that Allah can do this, and you must worship this Idol now.
So, my question is, how is your argument any different than this?"

My friend, I never said you to do idol worship. By saying that I said you to do idol worship, you are throwing me to Hell. Please, I never said Allah is present in an idol. I even disagreed when you raised an argument about Allah being omnipresent. If you remember, I said Allah is not Himself present all over the world but His knowledge is present all over the world.
I also said Allah has a form but we dont know a form of Him. Where did I say Allah has a form of an idol so worship idol.

My question is how do you know Allah has a form? DO you have a verse in Quran that says Allah has a form? What is the meaning of form?

I agree that Allah is not understood with science and never will be.

It is said 'Love' is in the heart. But if they open the hearth it is not there! it is nowhere, yet it exists. Where is 'kindness', 'forgiveness', 'generaocity', 'Merci', 'compassion'? These are non-materialistic existence. The term 'form' and 'place' does not apply to them, but yet they exist. All these are the names are attributed to God in Quran 'kind', 'forgiving', 'generess', 'Merciful', 'compassionat'

Obviously, the term 'form' and 'space' and 'place' does not apply to non-materialistic existance like God.

Regarding the underlined part of the Hadith you quoted:
"On the Day of Resurrection, people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship."

Does that mean Allah has to come down to earth to order His creation on the earth to worship what they used to worship.

If that is your argument then the answer is given in the same Hadith in the next part which says:
"Allah will call them[them means people who worship Allah.], and As-Sirat (a bridge) will be laid across Hell and I (Muhammad) shall be the first amongst the Apostles to cross it with my followers. Nobody except the Apostles will then be able to speak and they will be saying then, 'O Allah! Save us. O Allah Save us."

Where do you think Allah will call them? on the earth itself? If so, then why As-Sirat will be laid across the Hell if Allah calls those people on earth itself?

The verse saying "And the Earth will shine with the glory of its Lord"

Does Glory means the presence.?

I will give you the part of the verse in Arabic.
If you know Arabic you will understand.
It says
"Wa ashrakhatil ardhu binoori rabbiha"

The word "noor" is used for the meaning "reflected light". binoori Rabbiha means by the reflected light of its lord. which can also be translated as by the glory of its lord.

The word noor is used many times in the Quran to describe the light of moon. which makes it clear noor is the reflected light. And noori rabbiha means reflected light of its lord.

I have already explained my view regarding this hadith in my discussions with Odion in posts #21. So, I refer you to that. Regarding Light of Lord in the verse of Quran, first we have to ask if light is literal or figurative. Well, it is said God is the light of the earth and Heaven. By this is meant light of guidance and knowledge. Likewise in another verse it is said Muhammad is Light (nour)

"Wa ashrakhatil ardhu binoori rabbiha"

means, the earth will be enlightend with the knowledge of Lord. How does the earth is lightened with the knowledge of God? Obviously by His Two Pormised Ones.
The Hadith says, Lord comes to them twice, and they do not recognize Him, and they say:

'We shall stay in this place till our Lord comes to us and when our Lord will come, we will recognize Him"

Obviously those who say this, Already believe in Lord, but how come they do not recognize Lord? Because this Lord is manifested in the Promised One, and they do not recognize Him. (I explained more of these in my previous posts to Odion in this thread, if you are interested refer to them, then we can continue)

 

[anshu]

Hi Anshu, you are saying "we know what a spirit is and how it looks like and how it behaves"

How do we know all these about Spirit? Quran says otherwise:

And they ask you concerning the Spirit. Say: "The Spirit is from the command on my Lord, and the knowledge you were given was but very little."



Could be that Allah is Spirit, but He is a different Spirit than ours? Then in that case, He won't be like us.

Hai investigate truth,
the verse you have quoted from surah al-Isra 17:85 is talking about the spirits of human beings. It says spirit is possessed by Human being it self, How can you say that Allah is spirit? when human beings has it then how can it be Allah. Allah is unique. Please dont compare Allah with anything. By doing so you are belittling Allah. That is the major sin Gunah-e-kabira. Please dont do that. When Allah says that He is not like any thing which we know of. How death occurs? When the angel of death takes away the spirit of man from him with the permission of Allah. Then man is dead. The spirit is created by Allah. How can spirit be Allah?

I agree. How do we know which is literal and which is symbolic?

To know which verse is literal and which is not you have to understand the context. In which context the verse is said.

My question is how do you know Allah has a form? DO you have a verse in Quran that says Allah has a form? What is the meaning of form?

I agree that Allah is not understood with science and never will be.

When I said form that does not mean that Allah is having flesh blood and solid. He is unique.

It is said 'Love' is in the heart. But if they open the hearth it is not there! it is nowhere, yet it exists. Where is 'kindness', 'forgiveness', 'generaocity', 'Merci', 'compassion'? These are non-materialistic existence. The term 'form' and 'place' does not apply to them, but yet they exist. All these are the names are attributed to God in Quran 'kind', 'forgiving', 'generess', 'Merciful', 'compassionat'


Obviously, the term 'form' and 'space' and 'place' does not apply to non-materialistic existance like God.

Love is a feeling and merciful,compassionate and all the rest are non-materialistic attributes. Dont compare those two things. I am aware that there are no less than 99 attributes given to Allah.

I have already explained my view regarding this hadith in my discussions with Odion in posts #21. So, I refer you to that. Regarding Light of Lord in the verse of Quran, first we have to ask if light is literal or figurative. Well, it is said God is the light of the earth and Heaven. By this is meant light of guidance and knowledge. Likewise in another verse it is said Muhammad is Light (nour)

"Wa ashrakhatil ardhu binoori rabbiha"

means, the earth will be enlightend with the knowledge of Lord. How does the earth is lightened with the knowledge of God? Obviously by His Two Pormised Ones.
The Hadith says, Lord comes to them twice, and they do not recognize Him, and they say:

'We shall stay in this place till our Lord comes to us and when our Lord will come, we will recognize Him"

Obviously those who say this, Already believe in Lord, but how come they do not recognize Lord? Because this Lord is manifested in the Promised One, and they do not recognize Him. (I explained more of these in my previous posts to Odion in this thread, if you are interested refer to them, then we can continue)

your understanding of the Hadith in the post no.21 with the discussion with odion is that Allah calls men to Him means Allah call men to His knowledge. Then I want to ask you a question if Allah is calling towards His knowledge, then why the as-Sirat is led? Do you require a bridge to go towards the knowledge of Allah. Or do you still say that the bridge is also imaginary?
All most all Muslims know that as-Sirat is led above the Hell from earth to heaven and those who are pious will only be able to cross that bridge others cannot. Please comment.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Hai investigate truth,
the verse you have quoted from surah al-Isra 17:85 is talking about the spirits of human beings. It says spirit is possessed by Human being it self, How can you say that Allah is spirit? when human beings has it then how can it be Allah. Allah is unique. Please dont compare Allah with anything. By doing so you are belittling Allah. That is the major sin Gunah-e-kabira. Please dont do that. When Allah says that He is not like any thing which we know of. How death occurs? When the angel of death takes away the spirit of man from him with the permission of Allah. Then man is dead. The spirit is created by Allah. How can spirit be Allah?





To know which verse is literal and which is not you have to understand the context. In which context the verse is said.




Love is a feeling and merciful,compassionate and all the rest are non-materialistic attributes. Dont compare those two things. I am aware that there are no less than 99 attributes given to Allah.

In Quran Allah is called 'light, merciful' and also Muhammad is called 'light, Merciful'
If Allah is not comparable with His creation, then why Quran says otherwise?
Please see my post #25 in this thread, for my view.

your understanding of the Hadith in the post no.21 with the discussion with odion is that Allah calls men to Him means Allah call men to His knowledge. Then I want to ask you a question if Allah is calling towards His knowledge, then why the as-Sirat is led? Do you require a bridge to go towards the knowledge of Allah. Or do you still say that the bridge is also imaginary?
All most all Muslims know that as-Sirat is led above the Hell from earth to heaven and those who are pious will only be able to cross that bridge others cannot. Please comment

In Quran, there are verses that says, Some Hadithes require interpretation in a symbolic sense. Refer to the story of Prophet Joseph in Quran, and interpretations of Hadithes as an example.
In our view, 'The Bridge' is not literal. It is a Figurative Sign (Mutishabih). It means, 'Recognizing the Truth'. So, it means those who recognize Him, are passed from the Bridge, and those who fail to recognize Him, are those who have not passed. It means,, when Allah Manifest Himself through His Promised Ones, those who are able to pass, are those recognize that they are from God. Muhammad and His followers would pass from the bridge, Means, they from the spiritual World of God are witness, and believe and recognize the Two Promised One as knoweldge and word of God are Manifested through Them.

 

[anshu]

Hai man,
After reading your previous post and the post number 25, I am very sorry to say that your knowledge of Islam is ZERO.
I guess you read the translations of Quraan and Hadith. I would like to request you to read Quraan in its own language that's Arabic. Then you can understand them better In Sha Allah.

In Quran Allah is called 'light, merciful' and also Muhammad is called 'light, Merciful'
If Allah is not comparable with His creation, then why Quran says otherwise?
Please see my post #25 in this thread, for my view.

I am aware Allah is called as light and merciful and even Prophet Mohammed(s.a.w.s) is called as light and merciful. It means that the Allah is the light of Knowledge to the people and so is the Mohammed(s.a.w.s). How are these verses a comparing Allah with His own creation?
Quraan says in 24:35 that Allah is the light of Heaven and the earth. And one of Prophet(s.a.w.s) names is Siraj meaning light. Meaning Prophet Mohammed(s.a.w.s) is the light for the people. That does not mean literal light.
if you still say, you were talking about some other verses in Quraan not which I mentioned. Please give the quote about which you were talking so that I can answer you better.

In Quran, there are verses that says, Some Hadithes require interpretation in a symbolic sense. Refer to the story of Prophet Joseph in Quran, and interpretations of Hadithes as an example.
In our view, 'The Bridge' is not literal. It is a Figurative Sign (Mutishabih). It means, 'Recognizing the Truth'. So, it means those who recognize Him, are passed from the Bridge, and those who fail to recognize Him, are those who have not passed. It means,, when Allah Manifest Himself through His Promised Ones, those who are able to pass, are those recognize that they are from God. Muhammad and His followers would pass from the bridge, Means, they from the spiritual World of God are witness, and believe and recognize the Two Promised One as knoweldge and word of God are Manifested through Them.

Oh come on! Please don't translate the Quraan and Hadiths as your wish man. The translations or the explanations of Quraan and Hadith which I gave is all from authentic scholors who are trusted by 95% of Muslims.
Go to any Muslim scholors, whether he may be Sunni, Ahl-e-Hadith, Sufi or any other scholor who believe that Mohammed(s.a.w.s) is the last and final messenger of Allah will say that As-Sirat said there is not the bridge of knowledge. It is the literal bridge. Even its description is given in some Hadith. The bridge will be laid across the Hell to the Heaven. It will be thinner than hair and sharper than a sword.
Those who does good deeds will pass from it and those who dont will not pass it.
And those who sacrifice sheep or any lawful animal on the day of Eid-ul-Azha, that animal will help them in passing the bridge.
Do you say that all this description is wrong??
My sincere advice brother, just forget all the knowledge you have about Islam and your religion, take time to learn Arabic as a language. Then read all the Quraan and all the authentic Hadiths in Arabic. Only then you will come to know the reality of Islam.
I will give you an example.
If you wear a black spectacles, the world will appear black to you. If you wear red spectacles, the world will appear red to you. To know the actual appearance of world you have to see it with your naked eyes.
In the same ways, different people translate Quran and Hadith in different ways and when you read all those translations you will understand in some other different way. Therefore, to understand Quraan in correct way, learn Arabic and read Quraan.
That is the reason Quraan is called as miracle of miracles.