Muslims do not worship the same god as the Christians

[Gjallarhorn]

Ask three different people to describe in detail a common friend and you are going to get three different descriptions. They may be similar but there will be differences. Does that mean that common friend is actually three different people?

I never said there were different gods. I said people worship different gods. The difference being our perceptions of the object do not affect the object. Sometimes our perceptions don't match up with anything at all.

 

[ID_Neon]

But you can't have contradictory perceptions of said object...get it?

 

[ID_Neon]

Please define what this intercessor is for Judaism, it sounds like you don't quite understand how the Sacrifice System works. Even the idea that Isaiah 53:10 stating that the Moshiach will be a Guilt Offering in itself is not quite the same as an "intercessor".

And please provide scripture for your claim in the red here. The entire Christian community until Cornelius was entirely a Jewish sect who paid the Temple tax.

Levite priesthood is an intercession, Job cries out for intercession and Jeremiah describes it eloquently enough in 1-3.

A high priest only could enter the holy of holies and intercede for the nation.

 

[ID_Neon]

Fallingblood not a single person spoke directly with God....the scripture always is around the fact such as a messenger of God an Angel or etc which Christians take to mean Jesus. So if you want to argue Christians are wrong that's one thing...but to say they don't argue the well that's what sent me off the handle

 

[fallingblood]

But you can't have contradictory perceptions of said object...get it?

Sure you can. That is why even Christians disagree on aspects of God.

 

[fallingblood]

Fallingblood not a single person spoke directly with God....the scripture always is around the fact such as a messenger of God an Angel or etc which Christians take to mean Jesus. So if you want to argue Christians are wrong that's one thing...but to say they don't argue the well that's what sent me off the handle

You need to reread the Bible then. Or are you saying the Bible is wrong?

Abraham talked with God. Noah talked with God. Adam and Eve talked with God. Moses talked with God. And that is just in the first part of the Bible. Abraham spoke to God face to face. So yes, according to the Bible, people speak directly with God.

The OT never speaks about Jesus. You will not find Jesus in the OT unless you place him there. There is a difference.

More so, it is never said that one can not speak to God directly. In fact, we have example after example of people speaking directly to God. It seems to me that you're simply ignoring all of those aspects as they don't fit into your idea.

 

[Shermana]

Levite priesthood is an intercession, Job cries out for intercession and Jeremiah describes it eloquently enough in 1-3.

A high priest only could enter the holy of holies and intercede for the nation.

If you're comparing Priests and Prophets to the same kind of Intercession as the Moshiach, you may as well say that Muhammad was an intercessor too. Please explain what you mean about Jeremiah describing it eloquently, quote exactly which verses you're referring to. And quote Job too. Please explain how you define the Levitical priesthood as "intercession" and compare it to how you view Christ as intercessor.

 

[ID_Neon]

If you're comparing Priests and Prophets to the same kind of Intercession as the Moshiach, you may as well say that Muhammad was an intercessor too.

Except for the problem of infallibility.

Mohammed contradicts the prophets and Moses etc. And therefore cannot himself be a prophet but that could be debated elsewhere.

As for glairhorn I'm on my phone it just makes replying tedious at times sorry for that.

I guess I should clarify no one has been in the presence of God and that is the need of an intercessor.

Talking with God is fairly removed than being in the presence of God. And Adam and eve were in His presence until the separation (I do deviate from dogma I don't believe in a fall....scripture doesn't clearly state that).

Everywhere when man wants to return to God an intercessor is mentioned.

The sanctum sanctorum is a place for God and why the high priest would emmulate the true intercession.

 

[ID_Neon]

Also, the old testament cries out Jesus on every page. It's so painfully obvious I think that's something that reaffirms the holy spirit, because it is said to rightly read the Bible you need the holy spirit.

For me it's easy to see Jesus in Jerimiah, or Jonah.

Even the rainbow cries out the meaning of Jesus...

It's just plain as day

 

[fallingblood]

Except for the problem of infallibility.

Mohammed contradicts the prophets and Moses etc. And therefore cannot himself be a prophet but that could be debated elsewhere.

As for glairhorn I'm on my phone it just makes replying tedious at times sorry for that.

I guess I should clarify no one has been in the presence of God and that is the need of an intercessor.

Talking with God is fairly removed than being in the presence of God. And Adam and eve were in His presence until the separation (I do deviate from dogma I don't believe in a fall....scripture doesn't clearly state that).

Everywhere when man wants to return to God an intercessor is mentioned.

The sanctum sanctorum is a place for God and why the high priest would emmulate the true intercession.

You're incorrect. Abraham spoke to God face to face. Thus, no intercessor is needed.

Also, the prophets contradict each other anyway, so that is no reason to dismiss Mohammad (especially when you haven't shown that he contradicted the prophets).

 

[fallingblood]

Also, the old testament cries out Jesus on every page. It's so painfully obvious I think that's something that reaffirms the holy spirit, because it is said to rightly read the Bible you need the holy spirit.

For me it's easy to see Jesus in Jerimiah, or Jonah.

Even the rainbow cries out the meaning of Jesus...

It's just plain as day

It is easy for you to see Jesus in the OT because you have put Jesus in the OT.

 

[Me Myself]

I guess I should clarify no one has been in the presence of God and that is the need of an intercessor.

Nonsense. I am in my own pressence and the bible clearly says I am god, by Jesus´s own words.

Is Jesus wrong?

 

[Shermana]

Also, the old testament cries out Jesus on every page. It's so painfully obvious I think that's something that reaffirms the holy spirit, because it is said to rightly read the Bible you need the holy spirit.

For me it's easy to see Jesus in Jerimiah, or Jonah.

Even the rainbow cries out the meaning of Jesus...

It's just plain as day

If it's so painfully obvious that it cries out, please quote the exact scriptures, as I asked in my edit. I'm not saying that I disagree that the Moshiach is mentioned, but I do strongly disagree with how non-Messianic-Jews (aka "Christians") interpret it.

 

[muslim-]

I think all believe in God, and have differences in understanding His attributes, and how to pray to Him (directly, or via middle men).

 

[Katzpur]

It is easy for you to see Jesus in the OT because you have put Jesus in the OT.

Jesus is in the OT. He's just not referred to by the name "Jesus."

 

[Reverend Rick]

The basic premise seems ignored.

If you worship two different natures then they cannot be the same nature. That is a logical incoherence.

Therefore necessarily, right or wrong. Islam and Christianity are not worshipping the same God.

You can repeat something as many times as you like but we both worship the God of Jacob and Issac

 

[Reverend Rick]

You need to reread the Bible then. Or are you saying the Bible is wrong?

Abraham talked with God. Noah talked with God. Adam and Eve talked with God. Moses talked with God. And that is just in the first part of the Bible. Abraham spoke to God face to face. So yes, according to the Bible, people speak directly with God.

The OT never speaks about Jesus. You will not find Jesus in the OT unless you place him there. There is a difference.

More so, it is never said that one can not speak to God directly. In fact, we have example after example of people speaking directly to God. It seems to me that you're simply ignoring all of those aspects as they don't fit into your idea.

:clap

 

[McBell]

I asked a Muslim if humans need an intercessor between them and God, which a Christian says Christ is the intercessor, and the Muslim said that we do not need an intercession between us and God.

This to me tells me that it is not the same God which these two faiths worship.

I'd like someone to ellaborate on the intercession concerning Islam, but if I'm correct in that simple manner than we cannot possibly be worshipping the same God because the Christian God is necessarily so unfathomable and holy that mankind cannot possibly approach Him. Likewise, such a God is so beyond human comprehension that He cannot directly communicate with us.

I don't want my specific definitions to spark too much debate, I'm not sure how to describe Allah, if no intercession is required, I've not thought what this means for God in terms of a logical argument, is that the "most holy" God possible? Is that the most infallible? The maximally great? etc?

I think that the condition of intercession means the two gods are contradictory thus cannot be the same.

By this logic there are thousands if not millions of different gods within the Christian religion alone.

 

[Caladan]

Jesus is in the OT. He's just not referred to by the name "Jesus."

This is based in belief though, not scholarship. the Hebrew Bible deals with events long before the compilation of the New Testament. and more importantly before the OT was ideologically included to back the New Testament.

 

[Iti oj]

It's possible they are not worshipping the same God because the natures of their Gods are different.

This should be a pretty basic premise, if something is blue and something is red they are not the same color.

do you know what my blue or red are? i have a red brick and a blue brick. i paint and prime both bricks the opposite color. Its just dressings man. look at the bulk of similarity. they even share prophets and ancients. Islam as I understand refers to Jews and Christians as people of the book, which makes them way better then pagans etc...
Muslims even believe in Jesus, they just don't call him the sun of God. The blood line of the founding fathers of Islam/judochristianity were brothers. Isaac and Ishmael if my memory is right.