Muslims do not worship the same god as the Christians

[ohhcuppycakee]

When I was Christian I prayed to the FATHER, not the SON...What is wrong in this?

 

[ID_Neon]

I don't know how people can't accurately comprehend what a logical inconstancy is? It doesn't matter what your blue or red are they are a different color by definition.

If you say you worship the same God, then why does your God have different characteristics than the other?

I think Spock says it best about Allah....

"What does God need with a starship?"

 

[ID_Neon]

Regarding intercession:

Isaiah 59:15-16

Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgement.
And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor:

 

[ID_Neon]

Isaiah 53:12

;and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.



A very bold prophecy for a God not needing intercession? Right?

 

[fallingblood]

I don't know how people can't accurately comprehend what a logical inconstancy is? It doesn't matter what your blue or red are they are a different color by definition.

If you say you worship the same God, then why does your God have different characteristics than the other?

I think Spock says it best about Allah....

"What does God need with a starship?"

They have different characteristics because they are viewed by different people.

Here is an example. If I told you to think of an apple, you most likely would have a different idea of an apple than me. Maybe you would think of a red delicious, or maybe a granny smith. Maybe you would thin of a crab apple or some other variety of apple. From your perspective, an apple would be different from mine; however that wouldn't mean one of us were wrong. We just have different perspectives.

The same way is with God. It would be foolish to think that we understand God. Which means that he may do things or appear to others in ways that are foreign to ourselves. However, that doesn't mean he is a different god, he just doesn't appear to everyone in the same way ano not everyone perceives him in the same manner.

 

[cablescavenger]

I asked a Muslim if humans need an intercessor between them and God, which a Christian says Christ is the intercessor, and the Muslim said that we do not need an intercession between us and God.

This to me tells me that it is not the same God which these two faiths worship.

I'd like someone to ellaborate on the intercession concerning Islam, but if I'm correct in that simple manner than we cannot possibly be worshipping the same God because the Christian God is necessarily so unfathomable and holy that mankind cannot possibly approach Him. Likewise, such a God is so beyond human comprehension that He cannot directly communicate with us.

I don't want my specific definitions to spark too much debate, I'm not sure how to describe Allah, if no intercession is required, I've not thought what this means for God in terms of a logical argument, is that the "most holy" God possible? Is that the most infallible? The maximally great? etc?

I think that the condition of intercession means the two gods are contradictory thus cannot be the same.

Same God.

Muslims believe Jesus to have been Muslim, and a prophet of the same God, as Muhammad.

Muslims flat out reject him as either God in the flesh, or son of God. The reason for this rejection is the belief that the Christian and Hebrew scriptures were corrupted.

 

[ID_Neon]

Fallingblood.

If the different characteristics are contradictory then they cannot possibly be the same god.

Two contradictions are intercession and arbitrariness...

Repeating that they are different aspects of the same thing is impossible because one thing cannot have both aspects.

 

[McBell]

Fallingblood.

If the different characteristics are contradictory then they cannot possibly be the same god.

Two contradictions are intercession and arbitrariness...

Repeating that they are different aspects of the same thing is impossible because one thing cannot have both aspects.

Interesting how you would limit your god to not even be human, let alone god.
People have contradicting characteristics all the time.

Now according to you ,your god cannot have contradicting characteristics.
Seems to me that you have just put your god BELOW us humans.

Good Job!

 

[Shermana]

Regarding intercession:

Isaiah 59:15-16

Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgement.
And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor:

The word "intercessor" here is disputable, it's the only time it's ever used in the scripture, it comes from the root word "To meet", also, the context here is a bit different than what you're implying if you read the rest of the chapter, other translations see it as:

He was amazed to see that no one intervened to help the oppressed. So he himself stepped in to save them with his strong arm, and his justice sustained him. NLT

It's about "intervening to help the oppressed", it's not exactly the same.

Bible in Basic English
And he saw that there was no man, and was surprised that there was no one to take up their cause: so his arm gave salvation, and he made righteousness his support.

'
The Salvation being mentioned here is not quite the same as in your Theology.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he saw that there is not a man: and he stood astonished, because there is none to oppose himself: and his own arm brought salvation to him, and his own justice supported him.

Now for Isaiah 53:12, you may have a stronger case, but the exact context is a bit obscure, and it certainly isn't very clear what the exact implication is.

";and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Like with 59:16 however, we can see from the context what it's supposed to imply, in 53:10 it says that the Moshiach serves as the Guilt offering...don't sacrifices count as such intercession as you made with the example of the Priest?

 

[Katzpur]

Muslims believe Jesus to have been Muslim, and a prophet of the same God, as Muhammad.

Could you explain that further, please? If Islam was not founded until several hundred years after Jesus' death, how could He have been a Muslim?

 

[ID_Neon]

Mestemia no person can contain a contradiction at the same time just as you cannot be a different place at the same time.

Regarding to meet, why doesn't God intervene himself?

The Muslims think He can, but Christians know He can't in the way Muslims think.

 

[Shermana]

Regarding to meet, why doesn't God intervene himself?

So who split the Red Sea in your view?

 

[McBell]

Mestemia no person can contain a contradiction at the same time just as you cannot be a different place at the same time.

Regarding to meet, why doesn't God intervene himself?

The Muslims think He can, but Christians know He can't in the way Muslims think.

You will have to explain what you mean by "conflicting characteristics".

 

[ID_Neon]

When God parted the Red Sea did He manifest Himself before the people? No.

God breaths life into the whole world every second...is this any different than parting the red sea?

No.

 

[Shermana]

When God parted the Red Sea did He manifest Himself before the people? No.

God breaths life into the whole world every second...is this any different than parting the red sea?

No.

Oh, so when it says he appeared before the Israelites as a cloud or a pillar of fire, it was just kidding?

 

[ID_Neon]

You will have to explain what you mean by "conflicting characteristics".

For instance in Islam God can change
The laws at will and this includes if they contradict each other.

Muslims believe a Maximally great God can do anything He wants.

But that can't be true if God is infallible.

If infallible then the laws governed by logic must apply. Which is why it is important God's
Promises from beginning to end must be fulfilled.

 

[ID_Neon]

Oh, so when it says he appeared before the Israelites as a cloud or a pillar of fire, it was just kidding?

Do you think God is a cloud or a pillar of fire? I don't, God can't manifest Himself fully in this world because that's be like trying to fit something too big in too small a box.

 

[Shermana]

Do you think God is a cloud or a pillar of fire? I don't, God can't manifest Himself fully in this world because that's be like trying to fit something too big in too small a box.

I can't tell if this is a Straw man or an attempt to change what I said, but I implied that G-d himself appeared "as" in the form of. As the text says. You've read the text, right?

Exodus 13:21

By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way
and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could ...

 

[fallingblood]

Fallingblood.

If the different characteristics are contradictory then they cannot possibly be the same god.

Two contradictions are intercession and arbitrariness...

Repeating that they are different aspects of the same thing is impossible because one thing cannot have both aspects.

Not if those characteristics are nothing more than human perception. If those characteristics are nothing more than how people perceive God, all you have is a difference of perspective. And really, that is what we have.

More so, a being can have characteristics that are contradictory, or at least seem contradictory. One can be a loving person, yet still hate certain individuals or groups. That doesn't mean they can't be the same person, just that they are not defined solely by one characteristic. It means that they are more complex than just being defined by one characteristic.

One can have both aspects though. In the Bible, we see God speaking directly to Abraham. Abraham and God speak face to face with each other. God also speaks to Moses, but does so through a burning bush. God speaks to all of Israel at various times, but uses prophets in order to spread the message. Then he becomes man and comes as Jesus (at least according to some), and spreads a message. What we see is that God uses many ways in order to contact humans.

 

[ID_Neon]

God never presents Himself in person to Abraham...where do you get that idea from?