Muslims ONLY: The last Prophet was not the last of MESSENGERS

[tariqkhwaja]

Then lets do this.

Firstly, lets look at it logically. And then I will show you that same logic stated in the Quran.

Suppose you are my teacher. I begin as a student and study what you taught me. Then I pick up books in the library and study them too. And learn from other teachers and finally, I go on to become a teacher myself. My becoming a teacher ... does it have any effect on you, the original teacher. Does it not raise the status of the original teacher?

The answer is, not really.

However, suppose you taught me. And I never learnt from anyone but you. And so great was your teaching that by being your student and your student alone I became a teacher in my own right. I could never equal you, no. Because by sticking to your teachings I could only be maybe 10% as good as you. However, 10% of your teaching was enough to make a teacher out of me. The question is, how amazing of a teacher are you? Does not my becoming a teacher show how amazing the original teacher must have been?

That is the Prophethood that I believe is valid. That is the meaning of Khaatam-un-Nabiyeen. It is a common Arabic usage: Khaatam-us-Shuara' for example. Khaatam-ul-Auliya and so much more. They all mean last but last in the sense of unsurpassable. Last in the sense that only by adopting the teachings of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) can the stamp of Prophethood be put on anyone. That only Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) possessed that seal that could stamp the station of Prophethood on someone.

That is what we say the true meaning of Khaatam-un-Nabiyin is.

 

[.lava]

how do you define Prophet?


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[tariqkhwaja]

how do you define Prophet?

Someone who makes prophecies on whom belief is made incumbent by God. How does this relate to my answer?

In any case I will continue:

The Quran states the very point I made in my previous post. Or rather, I should say, the point I made is derived from the following Quranic verse (copy/paste from previous post of mine):

But despite all of this there might still be some doubt. So to seal the topic it is said in the Quran, Surah Nisa (Chapter 4), Verse 69:

"And whoso obeys Allah and this Messenger ..."
So there is no need for a new religion. From now on it is sufficient to obey Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)

"... shall be among those on whom Allah has bestowed His blessings ..."
The word "Na'ima" which Muslims recite several times a day in Surah Fatiha during their prayers is used here.

"... the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous. And an excellent company are they."
Pretty straightforward. And that is what Ahmadis say. That obedience of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) can allow one to attain the high status of Righteousness, Martyrdom, Truthfulness, and, of course, the highest of all, Prophethood. But only if one is completely obedient to the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and none else.

 

[yousaf]

Brother yousaf, lava is just a Muslim, like anyone of us. No need to brand each other bro.

Muslims have already enough problems to deal with. Just focus on the topic itself instead if you have got something to say.

For me, i disagree with his theory of having more messengers for a simple fact which MuslimGirl has pointed out for him.

By the way lava, Messenger means Rasol, and i guess MuslimGirl had that in mind when she was responding to you.

i apologise brother for my comments just sometimes there is too much 'jowsh'

 

[yousaf]

dear friend, i am not belong to sections and i am not Ahmadi. yes, all Prophets are Nabis and messengers of Allah. but Rasol does not mean Nabi. in Qur'an there is one verse where pharaoh sends Moses (PBUH) a messenger and Allah names him Rasol as well. do you know that?


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i never said rasools are nabis maybe you didn't understand what i wrote, i said muhhamad(s.a.w) is a rasool but also a nabi, whoever is a rasool is also a nabi, but not all nabis are rasools

 

[TashaN]

my precious friend, TashaN, you are right, Prophets/Nabis are messengers of Allah, naturally. But Rasols are not given books of sheria. only Prophets/Nabis were given books.

3 / AL- `IMRAN – 81: Ve iz ehazallâhu mîsâkan Nebîyyîne lemâ âteytukum min kitâbin ve hikmetin summe câekum resûlun musaddikun limâ meakum le tu’minunne bihî ve le tensurunneh(tensurunnehu), kâle e akrertum ve ehaztum alâ zâlikum ısrî, kâlû akrarnâ, kâle feşhedû ve ene meakum mineş şâhidîn(şâhidîne).
(Remember) It was when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "Verily I give you a Book and Divine Wisdom. When a Messenger comes to you, confirming what is with you (the Books that Allah sent you), you believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do you agree, and take this My Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

this Rasol that mentioned in Al-i Imran 81 does not have a book. verse clearly says that that Rasol who would come after all Prophets would only confirm holy books given to Prophets. who are those Prophets Al-i Imran 81 talks about?...here it is;

33 / AL AHZAP - 7: Ve iz ehaznâ minen nebîyyîne mîsâkahum ve minke ve min nûhın ve ibrâhîme ve mûsâ ve îsebni meryeme ve ehaznâ minhum mîsâkan galîzâ(galîzan).
And remember We took from the prophets their covenant, as (We did) from you: from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary. We took from them a solemn covenant.

as you see, the covenant that Allah took from includes the last of Prophets Mohammad (PBUH) why would Allah take covenant from Mohammad (PBUH) himself? Prophets including the last Prophet/Mohammad (PBUH) promised Allah to help one Rasol who would come after them. the one as we name him Mahdi (PBUH), Mahdi of end times. but this is not my argument here.



so true. because Prophets are sent for entire humanity, not just only for tribe. therefor in all times, there's always been just one Prophet. if there was a second Prophet at the same time (as in Moases (PBUH) and his brother), the 2nd one always helped the main one. therefor Moses (PBUH) went mountain tur alone. he was the one at that time, not his brother. only after death of Moses(PBUH) hi,s brother was the one. so there could not be two Prophets who reveales from Allah at the same time. please check this verse that tells about Rasols (Not Prophets/Nabis)

23 / AL-MU`MINUN - 44:Summe erselnâ rusulenâ tetrâ, kullemâ câe ummeten resûluhâ kezzebûhu fe etba'nâ ba'dahum ba'dan ve cealnâhum ehâdîs(ehâdîse), fe bu'den li kavmin lâ yu'minûn(yu'minûne).
Then, We sent our messengers in succession. Every tribe to which their messenger came rejected him. So We terminated them and made them a legend. Let the tribe which is not MUMIN (among the believers of Allah who wishes to reach Him) be away!

first of all, verse says 'Rusulena' which means messengers, plural. it also says that messengers were sent in successions. if it was Rasols who were given Books then there could not be hundreds of years between books. because messengers were sent in successions. a Prophet is naturally messenger of Allah but Prophet is not sent in successions and he is not sent just for one tribe.

21:107 And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds. Mohammad (PBUH) was sent as a mercy to the worlds. yes, he was of course messenger of Allah but he was not sent for his tribe only. he was Prophet. but Rasols, those who's not given Sheria books are sent to their own tribes. they do not have a new book they only confirm holy books that's given to Prophets.




as i tried to explain above, Mohammad (PBUH) did not come to confirm earlier books, he was given a book.



yes, that covenant was taken before we were born. my point here this, if Allah took covenant from Prophets to help Mohammad (PBUH) then why did Mohammad (PBUH) had to promise Allah as well?


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I think this discussion will be counter productive if we didn't agree on a specific definition for Nabi, and Rasol. We can't go for the details of this verse as long as each one of us is using different approach based on his own definition.

Why don'twe first dedicate a thread for the defenition of nabi and rasols and to know their roles?

 

[.lava]

OK, here is my view on Nabi

3 / AL- `IMRAN– 81: Ve iz ehazallâhu mîsâkan nebîyyîne lemâ âteytukum min kitâbîn ve hikmetin summe câekum resûlun musaddikun limâ meakum le tu’minunne bihî ve le tensurunneh(tensurunnehu), kâle e akrertum ve ehaztum alâ zâlikum ısrî, kâlû akrarnâ, kâle feşhedû ve ene meakum mineş şâhidîn(şâhidîne).
(Remember) It was when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "Verily I give you a Book and Divine Wisdom. When a Messenger comes to you, confirming what is with you (the Books that Allah sent you), you believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do you agree, and take this My Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

original text of Qur'an says Nebiyyine which means Nabi. Allah Almighty also says 'i give you book'. depending on this verse i come to this conclusion: Nabis are given books. is that OK with everyone? what are your opinions?


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[tariqkhwaja]

OK, here is my view on Nabi

3 / AL- `IMRAN– 81: Ve iz ehazallâhu mîsâkan nebîyyîne lemâ âteytukum min kitâbîn ve hikmetin summe câekum resûlun musaddikun limâ meakum le tu’minunne bihî ve le tensurunneh(tensurunnehu), kâle e akrertum ve ehaztum alâ zâlikum ısrî, kâlû akrarnâ, kâle feşhedû ve ene meakum mineş şâhidîn(şâhidîne).
(Remember) It was when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "Verily I give you a Book and Divine Wisdom. When a Messenger comes to you, confirming what is with you (the Books that Allah sent you), you believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do you agree, and take this My Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

original text of Qur'an says Nebiyyine which means Nabi. Allah Almighty also says 'i give you book'. depending on this verse i come to this conclusion: Nabis are given books. is that OK with everyone? what are your opinions?

My opinion is that the verse clearly indicates that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was prophecized to come by all other religions and this covenant of the Prophets points to the fact that all scriptures prophecize the coming of our Khaatam-un-Nabiyyin.

So the Bible contains the word Ahmet in relation to his arrival and the Torah contains Mohammadim in relation to his arrival and there are several more evidences from these are other religions where the coming of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) are prophecized.

And that is why the Jews and Christians were waiting for someone to come and they had spread among Madina's citizens this good news.

But if all this is not enough to convince you how about this verse that speaks of the coming of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and speaks of him as a Messenger and says the Messenger was given a book.

[62:3] He it is Who has raised among the unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and Wisdom though before that they were in manifest error;

 

[.lava]

My opinion is that the verse clearly indicates that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was prophecized to come by all other religions and this covenant of the Prophets points to the fact that all scriptures prophecize the coming of our Khaatam-un-Nabiyyin.

So the Bible contains the word Ahmet in relation to his arrival and the Torah contains Mohammadim in relation to his arrival and there are several more evidences from these are other religions where the coming of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) are prophecized.

And that is why the Jews and Christians were waiting for someone to come and they had spread among Madina's citizens this good news.

But if all this is not enough to convince you how about this verse that speaks of the coming of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and speaks of him as a Messenger and says the Messenger was given a book.

[62:3] He it is Who has raised among the unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and Wisdom though before that they were in manifest error;

about 62:3, don't you think Imams of today are not teaching the book? they teach the book too. but it is not the same being given book by Allah.

i gave that verse 3:81 to find a common ground for definition of Nabi. Allah says "i gave you book" that shows Nabis were given book. who's given book by God are messengers, of course. how could not they be?


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[tariqkhwaja]

about 62:3, don't you think Imams of today are not teaching the book? they teach the book too. but it is not the same being given book by Allah.

Which is why I bolded the "among unlettered people". It clearly refers to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

i gave that verse 3:81 to find a common ground for definition of Nabi. Allah says "i gave you book" that shows Nabis were given book. who's given book by God are messengers, of course. how could not they be?

Okay. Which book did Ishmael get?

Maryam Chapter 19 : Verse 55
And relate the story of Ishmael as mentioned in the Book. He was indeed true to his promises. And he was a Messenger, a Prophet.

 

[.lava]

Which is why I bolded the "among unlettered people". It clearly refers to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).



Okay. Which book did Ishmael get?

Maryam Chapter 19 : Verse 55
And relate the story of Ishmael as mentioned in the Book. He was indeed true to his promises. And he was a Messenger, a Prophet.

are you sure about the number of that verse? sure it is 3rd verse of surah 62? i can't find it.

the books we know are Bible, Torah and Qur'an. i don't know what book Ismail got. but Baqara 136 says that what he got is no different than Qur'an.

Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.


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[.lava]

Tariq, i do not understand. what about Maryam 55? what's your point?


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[tariqkhwaja]

Firstly a point of clarity. In the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community we consider Bismillah to be the first verse of every Surah. So -1 any verse numbers (or check 1-up and 1-down).

The point is that Ishmael did not get another book as such. He continued implementation of His father's commands. The point being that You can be a Nabi and not have a new book.

 

[.lava]

Firstly a point of clarity. In the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community we consider Bismillah to be the first verse of every Surah. So -1 any verse numbers (or check 1-up and 1-down).

The point is that Ishmael did not get another book as such. He continued implementation of His father's commands. The point being that You can be a Nabi and not have a new book.

OK, i'd try that.

yes, i know not all Prophets were given books. we name the ones who were given books Ul'ul Azm- owners of AZIM.

azim

• {N} resolution, determination, intention: firm intention, will, purpose: strenght of purpose, purpose, constancy, devoutness, doggedness, pep, perseverance, resoluteness, resolve, steadfastness, tenacity, zeal

i believe strenght of purpose fits the best because Nabis who's given books were people who would do whatever they were commanded no matter what. all the Prophets revealed from God but sheria was given to some of them. if i am not mistaken they were Noah (PBUH), Abraham (PBUH), Moses (PBUH), Jesus (PBUH) and Mohammad (PBUH).

[EDIT]i forgot, there is also Davud (PBUH) with Zebur.


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[tariqkhwaja]

My point is that you stated Messengers were not given books. I stated that there are also Prophets who were not given books. So from what do you make the conclusion that Prophets are better than Messengers.

Furthermore, I showed a verse of the Quran that stated that it was obedience of a Messenger that could put you among Prophets. The use of the word "Messenger" to refer to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) to be used and for it to be stated that obedience of that messenger was the only thing that could place anyone among the Prophets now show that Prophets are no higher in rank than Messengers.

And there are other verses that prove that Messengers are no higher in rank than Prophets. They are both the same only both words provide insight into a different vantage point of the same job description.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

How about this as well (I feel like I am bombarding you with stuff so forgive me for that):

Al-Nahl Chapter 16 : Verse 37
And We did raise among every people a Messenger with the teaching, 'Worship Allah and shun the Evil one.' Then among them were some whom Allah guided and among them were some who became deserving of ruin. So travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who treated the prophets as liars!

I don't think it gets any more obvious than that. What are referred to as Messengers in the beginning are referred to as Prophets at the end. Unless you believe the opponents of Messengers don't suffer punishment.

 

[.lava]

My point is that you stated Messengers were not given books. I stated that there are also Prophets who were not given books. So from what do you make the conclusion that Prophets are better than Messengers.

Furthermore, I showed a verse of the Quran that stated that it was obedience of a Messenger that could put you among Prophets. The use of the word "Messenger" to refer to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) to be used and for it to be stated that obedience of that messenger was the only thing that could place anyone among the Prophets now show that Prophets are no higher in rank than Messengers.

And there are other verses that prove that Messengers are no higher in rank than Prophets. They are both the same only both words provide insight into a different vantage point of the same job description.

[2:253]We have made some of these messengers to excel the others among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank;...

i never used the word 'better'. God knows their degrees. among all the messengers of God, Mohammad (PBUH) is the greatest. therefor no any other but it was only himself who were mercy to the worlds;

21:107 And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.

Allah says this only for Mohammad (PBUH). therefor his brith known as end of age of darkness. on the other hand, some of the Rasols are sent to their tribes only, not to the entire universe as Mohammad (PBUH).


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[tariqkhwaja]

Then what differentiates a Messenger and a Prophet in your view?

 

[.lava]

Then what differentiates a Messenger and a Prophet in your view?

all the Nabis are Rasols but all the Rasols are not Nabis. the last of the Nabis was Mohammad (PBUH) but Rasols would not end till the end of time. in every tribe there is a Rosal in all times. Allah sends them one after another. if a tribe Rasol dies, Allah sends another one to the same tribe.

23 / AL-MU`MINUN - 44:Summe erselnâ rusulenâ tetrâ, kullemâ câe ummeten resûluhâ kezzebûhu fe etba'nâ ba'dahum ba'dan ve cealnâhum ehâdîs(ehâdîse), fe bu'den li kavmin lâ yu'minûn(yu'minûne).

Then, We sent our messengers in succession. Every tribe to which their messenger came rejected him. So We terminated them and made them a legend. Let the tribe which is not MUMIN (among the believers of Allah who wishes to reach Him) be away!

2 / AL-BAQARAH – 87: Ve le kad âteynâ mûsal kitâbe ve kaffeynâ min ba'dihî bir rusuli ve âteynâ îsabne meryemel beyyinâti ve eyyednâhu bi ûhil kudus(kudusi), e fe kullemâ câekum rasûlun bimâ lâ tehvâ enfusukumus tekbertum, fe ferîkan kezzebtum ve ferikan taktulûn(taktulûne).

Verily We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers, and We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Whenever there came to you a messenger with what (an order) your souls (ego) do not like, you were puffed up with pride? Some you called impostors, and some you slayed!

57 / AL-HADID - 27: Summe kaffeynâ alâ âsârihim bi rusulinâ ve kaffeynâ bi îsebni meryeme ve âteynâhul incîle ve cealnâ fî kulûbillezînettebeûhu ra’feten ve rahmeh(rahmeten), ve rehbâniyyetenibtedeûhâ mâ ketebnâhâ aleyhim illebtigâe rıdvânillâhi femâ reavhâ hakka riayetihâ, fe âteynellezîne âmenû minhum ecrehum, ve kesîrun minhum fâsikûn(fâsikûne).

We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers in succession. We sent after them Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We ordained in the hearts of those who depended on (followed) him Compassion and Mercy. But the monasticism, which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them; but they sought for the Good Pleasure of Allah, but that they did not obey even as they should have done. So We bestow, on those among them who were AMENU (who wish to reach Allah in this life), their (due) reward, but many of them were rebellious (fâsikûn, those who have gone out of the Way of Allah after having entered it).

16 / AN-NAHL - 36: Ve le kad beasnâ fî kulli ummetin resûlen eni’budûllâhe vectenibût tâgût(tâgûte), fe minhum men hedallâhu ve minhum men hakkat aleyhid dalâleh(dalâletu), fe sîrû fîl ardı fanzurû keyfe kâne âkıbetul mukezzibîn(mukezzibîne).

For We assuredly sent (appointed) amongst every People (tribe) a messenger so they become servants and avoid the Satanic Way (TAGUT, man and jinn demons). Some of them (those who depended on a messenger) attained HIDAYAT (the true guidance leading to Allah) and some of them (those who did not depend on a messenger) were inevitably (established) in DALALET (misguidance). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).

39 / AZ – ZUMAR – 71: Vesîkallezîne keferû ilâ cehenneme zumerâ(zumeren), hattâ izâ câuhâ futihat ebvâbuhâ, ve kâle lehum hazenetuhâ e lem ye'tikum rusulun minkum yetlûne aleykum âyâti Rabbikum ve yunzirûnekum likâe yevmikum hâzâ, kâlû belâ ve lâkin hakkat kelimetul azâbi alel kâfirîn(kâfirîne).

The QAFIRS (the blasphemous ones) will be driven to Hell in groups till, when they reach it, the gates thereof will be opened. And its keepers will say: “Did not the Messengers come to you from among yourselves, reciting (reading and explaining) to you the Verses of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?” They will say: “Yes, they did. But the Word of torment (Decree of Chastisement) has been justified against QAFIRS (the blasphemous ones).”

the last verse says "did not the messenger come to you from among yourselves?" the last Prophet lived 1400 years ago. he did not come from among ourselves. it says they are among us.


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[tariqkhwaja]

.lava ... you don't really know do you?

You don't really know the difference do you?

You say all Prophets are Messengers but all Messengers are not Prophets. I ask you what is special about a Prophet that a Messenger does not possess ... you say that Prophets are not better than messengers ... I ask what is the difference at all if any ... and you restate the first sentence.

And don't forget the first verse I quoted that shows that through obedience of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) one can be among the Prophets. That prophets are needed as much as messengers and Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the last of neither.