Muslims ONLY: The last Prophet was not the last of MESSENGERS

[Nehustan]

I had a guy on a bus the other day mixing up the Jurassic period with that of AMH. By your reckoning I should have destroyed his argument. I was more inclined to think him a fool and leave it at that.

 

[Nehustan]

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly.

Oh I like this bit...and how exactly could that come to pass???

 

[tariqkhwaja]

I had a guy on a bus the other day mixing up the Jurassic period with that of AMH. By your reckoning I should have destroyed his argument. I was more inclined to think him a fool and leave it at that.

You had the time to make post #44. Why not give a shot and answer the other posts. You see no arguments worthy of response in #21 and #23? Hmm ...

In any case about your scientific enlightenment of this age:

Science is dependant on human rationality and reason. And human rationality and reasoning alone, time has shown us, can not be relied upon and certainly does not solve the problem.

Always in the history of mankind God has interfered and a Divinely appointed reformer has been sent to solve man's issues. As time moves away from the reformer so do the people move away from the original teachings. The religion started by the Divinely appointed one gets divided more and more. These divisions take place between rational thinkers coming to very different and often contradicting conclusions. This has happened throughout the history of all religions. So it has happened with Islam. My point being that 1400 years later one can only expect it to get worse if we depend on human reasoning alone.

Which is why your scientific enlightenment solution is, I am sorry to say, a dream and no more. Human reasoning, unfortunately, can not solve the problem without Divine intervention.

 

[Nehustan]

You had the time to make post #44. Why not give a shot and answer the other posts. You see no arguments worthy of response in #21 and #23? Hmm ...

In any case about your scientific enlightenment of this age:

Science is dependant on human rationality and reason. And human rationality and reasoning alone, time has shown us, can not be relied upon and certainly does not solve the problem.

Always in the history of mankind God has interfered and a Divinely appointed reformer has been sent to solve man's issues. As time moves away from the reformer so do the people move away from the original teachings. The religion started by the Divinely appointed one gets divided more and more. These divisions take place between rational thinkers coming to very different and often contradicting conclusions. This has happened throughout the history of all religions. So it has happened with Islam. My point being that 1400 years later one can only expect it to get worse if we depend on human reasoning alone.

Which is why your scientific enlightenment solution is, I am sorry to say, a dream and no more. Human reasoning, unfortunately, can not solve the problem without Divine intervention.

Which is exactly why we have the Quran and Hadith. I didn't propose the scientific paradigm in a positivist vacuum. As Tashan posted (and I replied)...

"All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly."

Oh I like this bit...and how exactly could that come to pass???

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Which is exactly why we have the Quran and Hadith. I didn't propose the scientific paradigm in a positivist vacuum. As Tashan posted (and I replied)...

You are missing the point Nehustan. We do have the Quran and Hadith. Yet is there a doubt that despite the presence of both (especially the error-free Quran) muslims have continued to divide up into more and more sects. If reverting to Quran was the solution one would expect Muslims to do it 1000 years ago but as time passes it is just getting worse and worse.

It is a famous saying: "Even to benefit from God's blessings you need God's blessing". To understand the Divine words of the Quran you need Divine Guidance.

 

[Nehustan]

You are missing the point Nehustan. We do have the Quran and Hadith. Yet is there a doubt that despite the presence of both (especially the error-free Quran) muslims have continued to divide up into more and more sects. If reverting to Quran was the solution one would expect Muslims to do it 1000 years ago but as time passes it is just getting worse and worse.

It is a famous saying: "Even to benefit from God's blessings you need God's blessing". To understand the Divine words of the Quran you need Divine Guidance.

I actually don't think it’s getting worse and worse, I’d imagine more of the same. Even within the Salafi division was rife. It's true that if one works on lowest common denominators, things, and by this I'm not just talking of Islam and Muslims, have the appearance of having sunk pretty low. Most people would struggle to make a stone tool if push came to shove, and if we use that as an analogy for intellectual prowess it is suitably appropriate.

In this context I have little time for your charismatic leader, tho' I have no doubt you are suitably impressed by him.

(edited to add, to be honest its not just you (Pl.), I also find elements of what I'll call Deobandi ideology equally ridiculous. It's not just an orientalist thing as I have plenty of time for philosophy and theology from beyond the occident, but let's just say, the best thing to come from the subcontinent is the concept of zero/cipher)