Muslims ONLY: The last Prophet was not the last of MESSENGERS

[.lava]

.lava ... you don't really know do you?

You don't really know the difference do you?

You say all Prophets are Messengers but all Messengers are not Prophets. I ask you what is special about a Prophet that a Messenger does not possess ... you say that Prophets are not better than messengers ... I ask what is the difference at all if any ... and you restate the first sentence.

And don't forget the first verse I quoted that shows that through obedience of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) one can be among the Prophets. That prophets are needed as much as messengers and Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the last of neither.

Tariq, i know the difference as it explained to me. Nabi and Rasol are different makaams. Nabi is Nubuvvet Makaam and Rasol is Risalet Makaam. Nabis were given sheria but Rasols are not. Rasols can only apply the sheria that given to Prophets. that's been enough for me to know but i would prefer to ask my teachers so maybe i would learn more about the subject and come back with more explanation.

if Mohammad (PBUH) was neither last of Prophets, then what do you think 'the seal of Prophets' expression stand for?

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[Nehustan]

As far as I'm concerned the people contemporarily who reveal knowledge pertaining to ourselves, our place in creation, and creation itself are the scientific community; even if they are atheists and deny it, each time they reveal something of creation, they reveal something of Allah's sovereignty, something of the means by which creation is manifest.

As a revert, I was strongly drawn to the Quran (and quite scared of it at times) by its ontological and cosmological precepts, things that seemed to be semiotic shorthand for what we may as well call quantum concepts. I was so taken by the imagery and metaphor I became Muslim. Having had looks about at ‘messages’ that have come to us since, I’m not overly impressed to be honest. They simply don’t pass my test.

Until such time as someone can provide me with something of equivalent brevity, complexity, metaphoric significance, and I suppose beauty, as far as I’m concerned they’re basically not much more than ego trippers that managed to get people to buy into their con. I won’t be holding my breath...

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Nehustan ... don't digress please. Thank you.

.lava I asked you which Shariah Ishmael brought because he was also called a Nabi. Were there three new Shariahs one after another among the sons of Ibrahim?

And what about Haroon brother of Moses (on them be peace and blessings). Haroon is also called a Prophet and surely, he did not bring another Shariah.

Please go ahead and ask your scholars these questions. I would be looking forward to what they have to say.

I already told you what "Seal of Prophets" stands for. Please re-read the post and if you don't understand let me know what exactly is unclear.

 

[Nehustan]

Nehustan ... don't digress please. Thank you.

Don't patronise me you little bonobo. I'll do anything I please, and I certainly won't be told what to do by you...clear?

If you choose to follow an ego maniac who fails in my opinion to provide anything comparable to the Quran, or the reports by the prophet during his journey with Gabriel (how ironic as we approach the Miraj) passed on to us by hadith, or indeed anything of comparability to Isa or Musa, then don't expect me not to say what I want to.

I've had to read pages of your drivel, I'll say whatever I please.

Recall, I wasn't brought up as a Muslim, so rather than becoming angry at your rants, and making takfir, I just find your position rather ridiculous.

Given having to put up with Ahmadi drivel, or sticking with my science books, I know which I'll go with, and thus my statement is directly relevant; physics, biology, and chemistry or more of your drivel?

When people start talking about nonsense, the model is proposed to the people of the book 'Produce an evidence for what you are claiming, if what you say is true!', I see no reason not to apply the model to the Ahmadis.

Post all you want by your precious leader, ultimately ministry being full of fluffy sound bites and pseudo prophethood, renders it naught more than candyfloss for gullible idiots. But don't get me wrong, I kinda feel for you, I've had people try to run a con on me once or twice...

 

[.lava]

As far as I'm concerned the people contemporarily who reveal knowledge pertaining to ourselves, our place in creation, and creation itself are the scientific community; even if they are atheists and deny it, each time they reveal something of creation, they reveal something of Allah's sovereignty, something of the means by which creation is manifest.

As a revert, I was strongly drawn to the Quran (and quite scared of it at times) by its ontological and cosmological precepts, things that seemed to be semiotic shorthand for what we may as well call quantum concepts. I was so taken by the imagery and metaphor I became Muslim. Having had looks about at ‘messages’ that have come to us since, I’m not overly impressed to be honest. They simply don’t pass my test.

Until such time as someone can provide me with something of equivalent brevity, complexity, metaphoric significance, and I suppose beauty, as far as I’m concerned they’re basically not much more than ego trippers that managed to get people to buy into their con. I won’t be holding my breath...

Nehustan, are you generally talking about Qur'an? i certainly do not wish to turn sharing into ego trip. this is why instead of my own words, i prefered to send speech of my Murshida. but it is very long and noone reads. well, anyways, of course i would try to do my best to tell what i am taught. but this is not a race or election. just make sure you never heard of it.

there is this young man in Turkey. he has an interesting study on Qur'an. he claims not to be expert. he is (i guess) doctor and he is very good at working with numbers and words. i think you'd like what he uncovered so far. very young and still working.


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[EiNsTeiN]

Don't patronise me you little bonobo. I'll do anything I please, and I certainly won't be told what to do by you...clear?

If you choose to follow an ego maniac who fails in my opinion to provide anything comparable to the Quran, or the reports by the prophet during his journey with Gabriel (how ironic as we approach the Miraj) passed on to us by hadith, or indeed anything of comparability to Isa or Musa, then don't expect me not to say what I want to.

I've had to read pages of your drivel, I'll say whatever I please.

Recall, I wasn't brought up as a Muslim, so rather than becoming angry at your rants, and making takfir, I just find your position rather ridiculous.

Given having to put up with Ahmadi drivel, or sticking with my science books, I know which I'll go with, and thus my statement is directly relevant; physics, biology, and chemistry or more of your drivel?

When people start talking about nonsense, the model is proposed to the people of the book 'Produce an evidence for what you are claiming, if what you say is true!', I see no reason not to apply the model to the Ahmadis.

Post all you want by your precious leader, ultimately ministry being full of fluffy sound bites and pseudo prophethood, renders it naught more than candyfloss for gullible idiots. But don't get me wrong, I kinda feel for you, I've had people try to run a con on me once or twice...

That hurts!...And I've got nothing more to say...I can provide tens of versus from the Quran describing how great the man u just insulted was...

But I won't argue you actually, cuz Im seriously disappointed from the way you phrased your thoughts.

Please, watch out your words...

 

[.lava]

That hurts!...And I've got nothing more to say...I can provide tens of versus from the Quran describing how great the man u just insulted was...

But I won't argue you actually, cuz Im seriously disappointed from the way you phrased your thoughts.

Please, watch out your words...

i am still trying to understand what he is talking about. is he, as a Muslim, calling Mohammad (PBUH) a ego maniac?


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[EiNsTeiN]

i am still trying to understand what he is talking about. is he, as a Muslim, calling Mohammad (PBUH) a ego maniac?


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I dont know, I rechecked his post...not sure I got it right though

I dont know what he is trying to say!

 

[.lava]

I dont know, I rechecked his post...not sure I got it right though

I dont know what he is trying to say!

let's wait for Nehustan to explain then


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[EiNsTeiN]

If you were talking about someone else than Prophet Mohamed, then Im sorry for the first part of the post...

Though, u will still have to watch out your words and the way u phrase your thoughts

 

[EiNsTeiN]

let's wait for Nehustan to explain then


.

Yeah I guess

 

[TashaN]

I dont know, I rechecked his post...not sure I got it right though

I dont know what he is trying to say!

To EiNsTeiN and lava, Nehustan was referring to tariq's prophet, Mirza Gulam.

He said: "If you choose to follow an ego maniac who fails in my opinion to provide anything comparable to the Quran, or the reports by the prophet during his journey with Gabriel (how ironic as we approach the Miraj) passed on to us by hadith, or indeed anything of comparability to Isa or Musa, then don't expect me not to say what I want to."

How on earth did you conclude he was talking about Prophet Mohammed when he mentioned clearly that, that ego maniac FAILED to provide anything comparable to the Quran, or the reports by the prophet?

This is clearly turning into a heated debate.

 

[TashaN]

**MOD POST**

Thread has been moved to the Same Faith Debate, so you can debate as you want now.
Enjoy!​

 

[EiNsTeiN]

To EiNsTeiN and lava, Nehustan was referring to tariq's prophet, Mirza Gulam.

He said: "If you choose to follow an ego maniac who fails in my opinion to provide anything comparable to the Quran, or the reports by the prophet during his journey with Gabriel (how ironic as we approach the Miraj) passed on to us by hadith, or indeed anything of comparability to Isa or Musa, then don't expect me not to say what I want to."

How on earth did you conclude he was talking about Prophet Mohammed when he mentioned clearly that, that ego maniac FAILED to provide anything comparable to the Quran, or the reports by the prophet?

mmm....You might think I'm smart, but guess what?
Maybe I missunderstood it cuz I didnt know tarek mentioned another prophet...I apologize so..

Hey lava...no need to wait for an explanation I guess

Will get back later isA

 

[.lava]

mmm....You might think I'm smart, but guess what?
Maybe I missunderstood it cuz I didnt know tarek mentioned another prophet...I apologize so..

Hey lava...no need to wait for an explanation I guess

Will get back later isA

yes, no need to wait. we're speaking second language and that happens! no problem


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[Nehustan]

To EiNsTeiN and lava, Nehustan was referring to tariq's prophet, Mirza Gulam.

^^^what Tashan said^^^

Sorry if you thought I was talking about Muhammad. I just didn't like be told what I could and couldn't say. My point, somewhat unclear it seems, is that after prophet Muhammad the main way that knowledge has been revealed is via science. By this I mean that scientists give us more than the ramblings of false prophets.

As far as I'm concerned Islam wants me to look to science to understand the creation.

 

[maro]

For Tariq , the ahmadi...three questions please....

1) you claim that your sect. is the only saved one among muslims and no one else will be saved , even those who lived before the mirza ,Right ?...what about abu bakr and omar and the other companions of prophet muhammad (PBUH)..aren't they saved too ?...the answer i am looking for is either Yes they are saved or No they are not.....that simple...

2) you are now two sects...which one is the saved one? and why ?

3) why doesn't your mirza fit with the descriptions of al mahdi in the sahih hadith ( al buhkari and muslim ) ?

 

[Sahar]

As far as I'm concerned the people contemporarily who reveal knowledge pertaining to ourselves, our place in creation, and creation itself are the scientific community; even if they are atheists and deny it, each time they reveal something of creation, they reveal something of Allah's sovereignty, something of the means by which creation is manifest.

As a revert, I was strongly drawn to the Quran (and quite scared of it at times) by its ontological and cosmological precepts, things that seemed to be semiotic shorthand for what we may as well call quantum concepts. I was so taken by the imagery and metaphor I became Muslim. Having had looks about at ‘messages’ that have come to us since, I’m not overly impressed to be honest. They simply don’t pass my test.

Until such time as someone can provide me with something of equivalent brevity, complexity, metaphoric significance, and I suppose beauty, as far as I’m concerned they’re basically not much more than ego trippers that managed to get people to buy into their con. I won’t be holding my breath...

^^^what Tashan said^^^

Sorry if you thought I was talking about Muhammad. I just didn't like be told what I could and couldn't say. My point, somewhat unclear it seems, is that after prophet Muhammad the main way that knowledge has been revealed is via science. By this I mean that scientists give us more than the ramblings of false prophets.

As far as I'm concerned Islam wants me to look to science to understand the creation.

Interesting posts.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

^^^what Tashan said^^^

Sorry if you thought I was talking about Muhammad. I just didn't like be told what I could and couldn't say. My point, somewhat unclear it seems, is that after prophet Muhammad the main way that knowledge has been revealed is via science. By this I mean that scientists give us more than the ramblings of false prophets.

As far as I'm concerned Islam wants me to look to science to understand the creation.

Got your point ...
Too weird, I totally missunderstood that in the beginning!

Anyway, just an addition, islam includes many other sorts of knowledge other than science, but everyone would be impressed according to his concerns..Few days ago I read about an american economist who converted to Islam under the influence of his impression about how an Islamic economical system would be able to solve the current crisis in the US.

I didn't know Tariq is an ahmadi and I dont know what this is all about, so I'm gonna back off and listen.

Regards

 

[Nehustan]

Anyway, just an addition, islam includes many other sorts of knowledge other than science, but everyone would be impressed according to his concerns..Few days ago I read about an american economist who converted to Islam under the influence of his impression about how an Islamic economical system would be able to solve the current crisis in the US.

You're right of course, but I suppose Economics is a form of math and/or stats, so I figure we can stack it with the sciences perhaps shelved not too far away from Psychology. :yes: