Muslims the least educated in the world?

[Monk Of Reason]

I think Monk's summary is a bit on the rose-colored-glasses side of reality, but mostly no harm. But I'd counter a little bit:

- The Crusades were a tiny, tiny counter offensive compared to the Islamic conquests of the four centuries that proceeded them.

- I think that key Islamic Imams turned Islam away from education long before the 18th century.

What is specifically rose colored? And I did mention that the Crusades were dwarfed by the Mongol invasion as the Christian Crusades weren't actually invasions in the typical since of conquering anything. They just came, killed and left.

I have heard this stated several times before but I don't know the actual evidence for it. Can you give me an example of anti-education in the pre 18th century Islamic world? Aside from the exclusion of women in many historical learning facilities.

 

[outhouse]

Since you don't deserve my attention, outhouse, i'll make one single post for those who are reading this thread, not you. I found the term which really describe what's going on in this thread. It's called "Historical Amnesia". Google it.

From: Overcoming Historical Amnesia: Muslim Contributions to Civilization*|*Craig Considine

Contributions to education

Malala's quest for universal education follows in Muslims' long and proud history in the field of education. Two Muslim women, Fatima and Miriam al-Firhi, created the world's first university, Al-Qarawiyyin in Fez, Morocco, in 859 AD. For several years, students were schooled here in a plethora of secular and religious subjects. At the end of their education, teachers evaluated students and awarded degrees based on satisfactory performances. The concept of awarding degrees would spread from Fez to Andalucía, Spain, and later to the Universities of Bologna in Italy and Oxford in England, among other places of learning.

Spanish Muslims of Andalucía were especially strong advocates of education and helped to dispel the gloom that had enveloped Europe during the Dark Ages. Between the 8th and 15th centuries, Andalucía was perhaps the world's epicenter for education and knowledge. Spanish universities such as those in Cordoba, Granada, and Seville, had Christian and Jewish students who learned science from Muslims. Women were also encouraged to study in Muslim Spain. This educational environment that stressed tolerance would not reach the "Western world" until the 19th and 20th centuries.

Kindly read the whole post in the link i have provided. You might also be interested to read the following:

Muslim inventions that shaped the modern world - CNN.com

Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

5 Muslim Inventions That Changed The World | Lost Islamic History

Do you have a lack of comprehensive abilities? is it the English language you have trouble with?

Because through this whole thread I have commented on how I wish Islam would return to its glory in the past before a bad iman had ruined it due to the religion alone, from which the cultures have never recovered.

 

[outhouse]

Sin

muslim historian Ibn Kathir

OMG how desperate are you


Ismail ibn Kathir (Arabic: ابن كثير&#8206‎ (1301–1373)



Im glad you prove that muslims rely on and still follow ancient and primitive forms of education

 

[outhouse]

outhouse, do you only have issues with Islamic prophets, or any faith's prophets? Just curious.

.

Thank you for clarification, in case there is doubt.


I follow truth in history and reality as close as I can. No bias and open mind.


If orthodox Judaism makes their unsubstantiated claims against reality and what is known, I will debate that, when Christian YEC and Islam make's the same mistakes, I will debate that.


Most of the muslim prophets factually have no historicity as ever existing. I don't have an exact percentage, but even muhammads claim to be a prophet is laughable historically speaking.


The whole religion is easy to attack for two main reasons, it has deviated from reality the furthest out of all the Abrahamic traditions, Christian YEC are right there but not as violent, and the violence its followers commit is a large second reason. For me its a sad thing, its not about swinging a bat wildly against low hanging fruit. The religion is in need of repair, and no one is doing anything about it peacefully. While it looks like an attack, my methods are peaceful. If you don't recognize a problem, and admit it, it will never get fixed will it?????

We don't want war and extremist to define the religion and promote further stereotypes. Only way to address this in a civil manner is to choke the truth down, and im finding very few good muslims that will do it and own up to the problem at hand.


Even my own family ran out of their country to find harbor in the USA from Islams religious sectarianism and violence, and that was 70 years ago, and nothing has changed at all, it has only been worse.

 

[outhouse]

I think Monk's summary is a bit on the rose-colored-glasses side of reality, but mostly no harm. But I'd counter a little bit:

- The Crusades were a tiny, tiny counter offensive compared to the Islamic conquests of the four centuries that proceeded them.

- I think that key Islamic Imams turned Islam away from education long before the 18th century.

Yes its been about a thousands years since they were the center of education and knowledge for the whole world.

There are two ways to solve this problem.

War and education.

And war does not work.


The problem with education is the fanaticism and fundamentalism in belief of the koran slows learning and education.

There is a cultural thing ingrained to all, getting muslims to answer questions straight forward if it goes against the teachings of their book is almost impossible.

Its like trying to teach YEC Christians science, its not going to happen easily.

 

[Godobeyer]

OMG how desperate are you


Ismail ibn Kathir (Arabic: ابن كثير&#8206‎ (1301–1373)



Im glad you prove that muslims rely on and still follow ancient and primitive forms of education

lol why you did not post the whole definition from wiki ?

Ismail ibn Kathir (Arabic: ابن كثير&#8206‎ (1301–1373) was a highly influential Muslim
Muhaddith (narrator), Faqīh, Mufassir, and Historian.

 

[icehorse]

Hey Monk,

I've heard from several sources that much earlier, maybe as early as the 11th century, Imams were shutting out critical thinking in favor of viewing the scripture as the ultimate source of all learning.

The article below (the first I found with a quick search), places this as occurring in the 13th century. (See paragraph 6.) I'm not making a precise claim, just that this trend is many hundreds of years old, not just a hundred or two.

Islam - History of Islamic Education, Aims and Objectives of Islamic Education - Religious, Knowledge, Koran, and Spiritual - StateUniversity.com

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Hey Monk,

I've heard from several sources that much earlier, maybe as early as the 11th century, Imams were shutting out critical thinking in favor of viewing the scripture as the ultimate source of all learning.

The article below (the first I found with a quick search), places this as occurring in the 13th century. (See paragraph 6.) I'm not making a precise claim, just that this trend is many hundreds of years old, not just a hundred or two.

Islam - History of Islamic Education, Aims and Objectives of Islamic Education - Religious, Knowledge, Koran, and Spiritual - StateUniversity.com

I see. I can admit to that. Though a true anti-scientific approach and rejection of evidence didn't occur till about the 18th century. But the changing ideals of how knowledge was to be treated changed much earlier.

 

[Chev Chelios]

You're missing important geo-political aspects in that comparison though.................................Take your mind off the religious aspect, it has to do with the environment these people are brought up in. Like I said, their religious fanaticism (not so much Islam itself) has hampered their ability to compete with first world countries to an extent but the thing mostly holding them back is the environment (landscape, neighboring countries, ect.)

I agree in part – but Islamic societies have been greatly shaped by Islam because it doesn't subscribe to the paradigm of seperating Church and State and no other religion has such extensive legislation to govern how you live or which puts in place social and governmental infrastructures the way Islam does. Remember – Shariah Law is Islamic law as interpreted from the Koran and Sunnah and this law has been incorporated into the constitutions of about 85% of Moslem majority lands. The point I am making is that Islamic societies are intimately related to the faith. It is why many people consider that a culture has been shaped by this faith – Islamic culture.

The unpalatable truth is that the troubles seen in all Moslem majority countries, certainly in terms of human rights but also greatly in economic terms, derive from adherence to a mediaeval culture which promotes religion beyond its natural place in the affairs of mankind, institutionalises oppression of women and is hostile to innovation because all the questions about the direction of your life have been answered for you. Considering this I think it takes a tremendous leap of faith to believe that it is all about geopolitics!

However, if you want to support your idea that, say, the oppression of women in all Moslem majority countries is mostly down to geo-politics then the burden of proof is on you to explain it as well how the population of all these nations seem so compliant and tacit in this subjugation of (for example).

Geo-politics essentially means ‘how politics and economy affect a nation’. Therefore, you really do need to explain how you separate the politics from the religious seeing as religion so informs the policies of so many of these nations as well as detail how this can possibly account for what we see in all the Moslem majority countries which are spread right across vast geographical areas which encompass North Africa the Middle East, Asia and the Orient. You will also have to explain why this oppression of women is not just seen in countries that are poor but also in very wealthy Moslem majority ones.

Then you will need to explain the clear anomaly of why we are seeing Moslems represent the highest proportion of unemployment based on demographic percentage, why we are now seeing an increasing demoting of female citizenship, an increasing religious intolerance and an increasing disregard of free speech etc etc within our substantial Moslem diasporas here in affluent un-Islamic Britain. All of these are unsavoury characteristics of Islamic societies and all will have to be explained by your geo-politics theory

 

[Chev Chelios]

Please note that Islam is a young religion compared to Judaism and Christianity, what was Christianity doing when it was the current age of Islam? .

What an utterly ridiculous mess of an idea – that there is some sort of gestation period for religions and that ‘maturity’ is a factor in explaining certain inadequacies of Islam – no doubt these inadequacies are just signs of immaturity which, in time it will grow out of then right? So, what you seem to be suggesting is that there is a linear time line of growth for religions and so I take it to mean that you think that eventually, given time, Islam will end up at the same place as Christianity then despite quite different doctrine right?? Erm – so, if I were to start a religion today do you think it will take 2000 years for it to be where Christianity is today then? May I ask how long you think it will be before you consider Islam to be ‘full term’? How long do people have to suffer all the oppression, intolerance and slaughter before Islam finally cleans up its act??

This peculiar premise of yours is something I actually hear often from Moslems (and their apologists) - that Islam is eternally fixed in time with a 600 year lag so that Islam in 2014 is comparable to Christianity in 1414 (as if 2014 is really comparable to 1414!!!) Sorry, but it doesn’t work like that, religions do not start off from a mystical ground zero from which they then proceed to develop in an isolated vacuum. Such a preposterous argument completely ignores the importance of the effect on Islam from say, modern liberalism, which will surely have served to speed up its developmental trajectory right?

Using this fallacy of yours I can also straight away put forward a rebuttal which argues that by virtue of coming after Christianity, Islam actually benefited from 600 years of hindsight and human development. Thus, because Islam actually started from an advanced position to that of Christianity therefore means Islam should have no reason for its extremism seen today because it is more modern and so by default surely should be a bit more civilised (learning from mistakes of the past, building on successful ones and that sort of thing).

Wasn’t Islam well ahead of Christianity during the Middle Ages by the way? At least that is what Moslems and their apologists continually like to point out so when they also say Islam is younger than Christianity which explains why its evolution is behind it we see that they actually become incredibly self-contradictory don’t they.

 

[Shad]

Since you don't deserve my attention, outhouse, i'll make one single post for those who are reading this thread, not you. I found the term which really describe what's going on in this thread. It's called "Historical Amnesia". Google it.

From: Overcoming Historical Amnesia: Muslim Contributions to Civilization*|*Craig Considine

Contributions to education

Malala's quest for universal education follows in Muslims' long and proud history in the field of education. Two Muslim women, Fatima and Miriam al-Firhi, created the world's first university, Al-Qarawiyyin in Fez, Morocco, in 859 AD. For several years, students were schooled here in a plethora of secular and religious subjects. At the end of their education, teachers evaluated students and awarded degrees based on satisfactory performances. The concept of awarding degrees would spread from Fez to Andalucía, Spain, and later to the Universities of Bologna in Italy and Oxford in England, among other places of learning.

This was a mosque not a university by modern standards. The first degree granting university, our modern standards, was in Europe. If mosques are considered universities then the Greeks, Romans, and Byzantium had these centuries before Islam. Degree were not granted at Al-Qarawiyyin.

Spanish Muslims of Andalucía were especially strong advocates of education and helped to dispel the gloom that had enveloped Europe during the Dark Ages. Between the 8th and 15th centuries, Andalucía was perhaps the world's epicenter for education and knowledge. Spanish universities such as those in Cordoba, Granada, and Seville, had Christian and Jewish students who learned science from Muslims. Women were also encouraged to study in Muslim Spain. This educational environment that stressed tolerance would not reach the "Western world" until the 19th and 20th centuries.

8th to 10th century. When the Cordoba Caliph fell it was taken over by fundamentalist from North Africa which didn't follow Greek philosophy. The new dynasty helped destroy the culture you are talking about. They started to exile Hebrew thinkers, even Muslims which follow Greek philosophy. Philosophy which the modern world is based upon.

Your first source is CNN which is not an academic source nor peer-reviewed. Investigation journalism has almost dead and CNN certainly does not use it.

The second source is wiki which can be edited by anyone...

The third source is from a person with a B/A in history which has not published one piece of work which has been peer-reviewed. It goes direct to a website that is all.

Your sources have no credibility

 

[Tabb]

Muslim Statistics (Education and Employment) - WikiIslam)


Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illiterate (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read). In Christendom, adult literacy rate stands at 78 percent


40% of muslims can read...............................


Than that would mean that 60% of so called Muslims never even read the Quran. They only know what someone tells them is in it. Maybe that has more to do with so many becoming radical.

I think your rant against Islam is totally misplaced. To imply that a religion whose bible that the majority of people can't read is the cause is ludicrous, my friend. People in third world countries are born into a predominate Islamic culture as are people in the industrialized countries are born into a Christian culture. I suggest if you want a fair comparison, use the numbers of Muslims born in industrialized nations.

 

[beenie]

There is no doubt that the lack of literacy and education is a huge problem in Muslim countries, especially for women. In more traditional countries, their "idea" of education is not necessarily based on our idea of education, either. In other words, even if someone can read the Qur'an, it doesn't make them educated.

In addition, those who can't read it are left to learn its meaning through Imams and scholars; that's a huge problem, and anyone who doesn't see it as such has blinders on.

 

[Godobeyer]

Muslim Statistics (Education and Employment) - WikiIslam)


Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illiterate (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read). In Christendom, adult literacy rate stands at 78 percent


40% of muslims can read...............................


Than that would mean that 60% of so called Muslims never even read the Quran. They only know what someone tells them is in it. Maybe that has more to do with so many becoming radical.

I think your rant against Islam is totally misplaced. To imply that a religion whose bible that the majority of people can't read is the cause is ludicrous, my friend. People in third world countries are born into a predominate Islamic culture as are people in the industrialized countries are born into a Christian culture. I suggest if you want a fair comparison, use the numbers of Muslims born in industrialized nations.

I think
Wiki Islam , is anti-islam wesite .

so this sources is not valide .

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Erm – so, if I were to start a religion today do you think it will take 2000 years for it to be where Christianity is today then?

To put it simply, yes. I assume that a new and successful successor Abrahamic religion in which you are its charismatic 4rth prophet weaving all manner of law and miracle in the machine age would have to produce quite a hardy dose of testament to bypass the technology/modern thought barrier. It would have to be some kind of virtual God-head capable of squelching or controlling every liberal or secular impulse that seems inborn in your average social media network. Demanding the construction of gargantuan holy mainframes, electronica style chant stored in every ipod.

What would happen with that is actually a whole other thread. However, what your talking about with the big 3 can actually be put to some analysis. Start with Judaism, or actually the Pre-Judaic Hebrew religion. 3000, 4000 years ago the bible attests to a strict religion in which stoning occurred and diviners were put to death. That religion I observe, must have been radically different from modern Judaism - in which all this history and thought accrued to create a religion where instead of what had to have been a court of strict solidarity, it evolved slowly over time into this thing were there is said to be 2 Jews and 3 opinions, a setting in which a stoning is very unlikely to occur.

I'll work out more of this a little later for the benefit of the thread.

 

[outhouse]

To imply that a religion whose bible that the majority of people can't read is the cause is ludicrous

.

Did I say that? or are you taking it out of context

Does this lack of education promote violence and terrorism due to poverty associated with ignorance?

Does religious belief promote this lack of education?

OR does lack of education promote religious belief?

 

[outhouse]

There is no doubt that the lack of literacy and education is a huge problem in Muslim countries, especially for women.

Which really bothers me

There is no reason to not have equality and freedom.

In more traditional countries, their "idea" of education is not necessarily based on our idea of education, either. In other words, even if someone can read the Qur'an, it doesn't make them educated.

Understood.

In addition, those who can't read it are left to learn its meaning through Imams and scholars; that's a huge problem, and anyone who doesn't see it as such has blinders on.

Agreed.



It would be the same if our country was ran 100% by violent YEC who defended their beliefs with sectarianism wars.

 

[Shad]

I think
Wiki Islam , is anti-islam wesite .

so this sources is not valide .

I read it was made by Christians at some point. Still even it is is or was it is just opinion unless backed by a good source.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illiterate (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read). In Christendom, adult literacy rate stands at 78 percent

I wonder though if at any point in history the inverse was true for your statistics, I haven't read a lot of Islamic history at this point. If what they say is true, that they were saving our own books while Christendom was burning them, that gives their religion at least some credibility to mutate into forms which thrive on absorbing information. Christendom, and I could cite many verses which I'm sure you've read, has a ton of New Testament scripture which is pretty discreetly anti-intellectual. I suspect that actually when read literally and followed as such it is one of the most anti-intellectual of the big 3. Judaism and Islam seem much more like religions of the head. (though of course I ever prefer my agnosticism-atheism to anything else)

So anyway, we all know that with Christianity much of the laity must have been illiterate for much of their history. I think you'd probably have to increase your denominator quite a bit to get to some of their historical statistics, the commoners being given only pictograms and mosaics to chew on and probably being discouraged from actual literacy. Thereof Christianity also seems to be the least legalistic of the big 3, literacy seems to have been the technology missing from that endeavor for that to occur.

 

[Chev Chelios]

I wonder though if at any point in history the inverse was true for your statistics, I haven't read a lot of Islamic history at this point. If what they say is true, that they were saving our own books while Christendom was burning them, that gives their religion at least some credibility to mutate into forms which thrive on absorbing information. Christendom, and I could cite many verses which I'm sure you've read, has a ton of New Testament scripture which is pretty discreetly anti-intellectual. I suspect that actually when read literally and followed as such it is one of the most anti-intellectual of the big 3. Judaism and Islam seem much more like religions of the head. (though of course I ever prefer my agnosticism-atheism to anything else)

So anyway, we all know that with Christianity much of the laity must have been illiterate for much of their history. ......

First - Moslems didn't protect ancient Greek and Hindu texts for the benefit of humanity as the lie argues - they burnt much of the material they took from the Byzantines and Persians (who hadn't burnt the material by the way) and only kept what they felt was beneficial to them. They also didn’t do the translating but rather it was Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians who did the initial translations because the early Arabs were incapable of doing this.

Also - I fail to see what importance Christianities historical literacy rates matter in this debate because we are talking about literacy rates in 2014 so dipping back centuries to periods where those under Christian rule were illiterate does not matter. Humans have evolved quite considerably now and what is holding back Islamic cultures is clearly Islam - we see disproportionate literacy and employment rates here in the UK where all have access to education.

Worryingly, statistics show that about 62.5% of Moslems are unemployed here (75% of women and 50% of men). It also doesn't matter whether Christianities texts are 'anti-education' or not because due to secularism their impact has been rendered obsolete - the same cannot be said for Islam and so its anti-educational ethos which is proving to be problematic indeed.