My "Christian" friends

[Kathryn]

well you contradicted yourself

Nope. No contradiction. I'm very consistent.

seems to me this isn't a matter of the heart...it's a matter of faith.

Faith is charged with emotion. The term "heart" implies emotion. Something can be a "matter of the heart" or a "matter of faith" and the terms do not contradict each other.

but the interesting thing you seem to be insinuating is that those who follow a religion need to be told 'by god through faith' about being empathetic can't figure it our for themselves...

Your typical modus operandum. "When Kathryn's not ACTUALLY saying something, I'll shove words in her mouth and then run off on a tangent."

Here it goes...wait for it...wait for it...

when they did and do not credit themselves for doing it....
i mean, there are plenty of non theists who grow and become aware of the world around them and have the courage to stand with their convictions without an ounce of faith in a god...so making a statement like that seems to be sort of segregating people of faith to a superior level, because of their faith...when anyone can.

Yeah, well, I'd have to actually MAKE a "statement like that" in order to actually sort of segregate people...

 

[Kathryn]

I don't know if it's the case for you, but in the case of some (many?) Christians, I get the sense that God is effectively a personification of their values and moral judgements... it's an expression of what they've decided is the "ideal". As someone who's name escapes me at the moment pointed out, people tend not to have Gods that they disagree with.

In that light, when a Christian says something like "I'm not important, but God is perfect and wonderful in every way," since I see their God as an aspect of their own personality, I often take this as "a part of me is perfect and wonderful in every way." IMO, it can be aggranization masquerading as humility.

OMG it's spreading. Eeeek, now some of it got on me!

"I don't know if it's the case for anyone else, but in the case of some (many?) atheists, I get the sense that their lack of belief in a Diety is effectively a personification of their values and moral judgments...it's an expression of what they've decided is the "ideal."

In that light, when an atheist says something like "Since I don't believe in any god, I reject the notion of sin" I often take this as "I never do anything wrong and am therefore perfect." IMO, this can be a case of serious denial masquerading as logic."

Now - if I actually said that and meant it, it would be taken as judgmental and, well, sort of weird. Though there may be some elements of truth to it, and though some atheists may actually feel that way, it's an example of slapping my own prejudices and preconceived notions onto a large group of people with widely varying personal beliefs in spite of their common belief, or excuse me - LACK of belief.

Not cool. And not particularly intellectually sound reasoning.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

OMG it's spreading. Eeeek, now some of it got on me!

"I don't know if it's the case for anyone else, but in the case of some (many?) atheists, I get the sense that their lack of belief in a Diety is effectively a personification of their values and moral judgments...it's an expression of what they've decided is the "ideal."

In that light, when an atheist says something like "Since I don't believe in any god, I reject the notion of sin" I often take this as "I never do anything wrong and am therefore perfect." IMO, this can be a case of serious denial masquerading as logic."

Do you think that's logically equivalent to what I said? I don't.

Now - if I actually said that and meant it, it would be taken as judgmental and, well, sort of weird. Though there may be some elements of truth to it, and though some atheists may actually feel that way, it's an example of slapping my own prejudices and preconceived notions onto a large group of people with widely varying personal beliefs in spite of their common belief, or excuse me - LACK of belief.

Not cool. And not particularly intellectually sound reasoning.

No, it isn't... not the straw man version you've created, anyhow.

You're reaching. And there really isn't anything humble in the sentiment "I'm not special, but this all-powerful, all-knowing being who agrees with all my beliefs is awesome!"

 

[waitasec]

Nope. No contradiction. I'm very consistent.



Faith is charged with emotion. The term "heart" implies emotion. Something can be a "matter of the heart" or a "matter of faith" and the terms do not contradict each other.

Here's what I think - I think when it comes to acts of charity, there are many different motivations. They can't judge your motivations, and you can't judge theirs. These are matters of the heart.

That being said, many people of faith will tell you that as they grow in their faith, they become more aware of the needs of others, and more generous and giving than they were without their faith.

so i'll paraphrase your post according to your back pedaling

"Here's what I think - I think when it comes to acts of charity, there are many different emotions. They can't judge your emotions, and you can't judge theirs. These are matters of emotions.

That being said, many people of emotion will tell you that as they grow in their emotions, they become more aware of the needs of others, and more generous and giving than they were without their emotion."

is that what you meant to say?

 

[Kathryn]

No. I said what I meant to say. Your problem is that you consistently try to rephrase what I clearly state in order to try to fit my posts and opinions into your preconceived ideas of my opinions and positions on things.

 

[waitasec]

No. I said what I meant to say. Your problem is that you consistently try to rephrase what I clearly state in order to try to fit my posts and opinions into your preconceived ideas of my opinions and positions on things.

you're being dishonest...your comment was about faith NOT EMOTION vs. matters of the heart.
:foot:

 

[Kathryn]

you're being dishonest...your comment was about faith NOT EMOTION vs. matters of the heart.
:foot:

What are you prattling on about? I didn't try to set up any scenario of faith VS matters of the heart or emotions or whatever you're trying to conjure up.

What's this got to do with the price of milk anyway?

 

[waitasec]

What are you prattling on about? I didn't try to set up any scenario of faith VS matters of the heart or emotions or whatever you're trying to conjure up.

What's this got to do with the price of milk anway? FOCUS.

nice ducking...

 

[waitasec]

What are you prattling on about? I didn't try to set up any scenario of faith VS matters of the heart or emotions or whatever you're trying to conjure up.

What's this got to do with the price of milk anyway?

oh i have been...

Originally Posted by Kathryn
Here's what I think - I think when it comes to acts of charity, there are many different motivations. They can't judge your motivations, and you can't judge theirs. These are matters of the heart.


but instead of leaving in it at that...you plug this in...


That being said, many people of faith will tell you that as they grow in their faith, they become more aware of the needs of others

(than before or than those who are not religious kathryn---are you being purposely ambiguous here?),

and more generous and giving than they were without their faith.

if that isn't a blatant plug for the superiority of religious faith... i don't know what is..

eeew!

 

[Kathryn]

oh i have been...




eeew!

Oh good lord.

Your biases are so blatant, it's downright tiring sometimes.

I think it's clear - and it CERTAINLY was clarified in continuing posts - that what I was communicating is that for SOME PEOPLE - they are personally bettered by their embracing of a religious faith and it's tenets.

That doesn't mean they are better than OTHER people - it means simply that they feel they are better people THEMSELVES than they were prior to embracing the tenets of their particular faith.

But I am SOOOOO repeating myself here. Sheeze.

 

[waitasec]

Oh good lord.

Your biases are so blatant, it's downright tiring sometimes.

I think it's clear - and it CERTAINLY was clarified in continuing posts - that what I was communicating is that for SOME PEOPLE - they are personally bettered by their embracing of a religious faith and it's tenets.

That doesn't mean they are better than OTHER people - it means simply that they feel they are better people THEMSELVES than they were prior to embracing the tenets of their particular faith.

But I am SOOOOO repeating myself here. Sheeze.

so why undermine what your previous statement said?

Here's what I think - I think when it comes to acts of charity, there are many different motivations. They can't judge your motivations, and you can't judge theirs. These are matters of the heart.

 

[Kathryn]

so why undermine what your previous statement said?

Wow, this is a real ...

...just not nearly as attractive as this picture...

 

[waitasec]

Wow, this is a real ...

...just not nearly as attractive as this picture...

care to respond?
or maybe you can't...which would explain all of your detours.

 

[Kathryn]

No, I don't care to respond AGAIN - because I'd be repeating myself.

At this point, I much prefer googling images and being flippant. If I'm going to waste my time, at least I'll be entertained.

 

[waitasec]

No, I don't care to respond AGAIN - because I'd be repeating myself.

At this point, I much prefer googling images and being flippant. If I'm going to waste my time, at least I'll be entertained.

you've been throwing out detractors to take the FOCUS off of your contradictory post...

it is very common for christians to separate themselves from unbelievers by placing themselves at a higher level under false pretenses... your second statement undermines your first one... either you don't want to see it or you can't...

if you would like to continue i'll meet you here...
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...337-would-fair-say-3-abrahamic-religions.html

 

[Kathryn]

No thanks - I'm tired of trying to make sense of your arguments.

 

[ChristineES]

I think it may be hard for some people to put their bias behind them. They have a preconceived notion about the way people behave. The problem is that people are individuals- no matter if they are theist, atheist, agnostic, have blue hair, or eat Cheerios for breakfast. NO ONE fits exactly into any generalization or stereotype. And everyone's belief (or lack of belief) system is slightly (or not too slightly) differently than anyone else. We are not those shapes that fit exactly into the slots.
I guess what I am trying to say is that every single person is different than another.

 

[waitasec]

I think it may be hard for some people to put their bias behind them. They have a preconceived notion about the way people behave. The problem is that people are individuals- no matter if they are theist, atheist, agnostic, have blue hair, or eat Cheerios for breakfast. NO ONE fits exactly into any generalization or stereotype. And everyone's belief (or lack of belief) system is slightly (or not too slightly) differently than anyone else. We are not those shapes that fit exactly into the slots.
I guess what I am trying to say is that every single person is different than another.

so why is religion generally understood that way
is it not because of how the non religious are subjected to religious doctrines as an attempt to control peoples personal freedoms?

 

[Thief]

so why is religion generally understood that way
is it not because of how the non religious are subjected to religious doctrines as an attempt to control peoples personal freedoms?

And the non-religious do what?

prove it.... prove it.... prove it....what?...no science?....then no God....

It's all over the forum.

The non-believers claim to educated.
Claim the believers are not.
Go on continually in religious debate all the while..."there is no God"

Historically religion had a strong influence in politics....and life.
But this country in now economically driven.
Your personal freedoms are at risk.
But it's not the Pope you have to look out for.

Think maybe self-centered greedy business men have something to do with your 'personal' freedoms?

Greenspan is now pleading a naive...'didn't understand greed'....
now that he's out of office.

 

[SarahRuth]

Then what did you mean when you said:

"they think you need to be saved from the same things they need to be saved from. Christians do not believe they are perfect, they believe they are forgiven for their sins. It's not that you live just as good a life as they do so you don't need to be saved, it's more like you live just as bad a life as they do therefore you DO need to be saved."

...if not that they realize the things they do are sins, but as long as they are "saved" it doesn't matter?


The suggestions to be very direct, and perhaps even a little snarky about it all.

To most Christians the most important thing is recognizing Jesus as their savior and that no matter how hard they try they can't help but be sinners. That's a major aspect of the religion. It really depends, as everything does, on your perspective.

Would you rather they look down on you and think of themselves as *better* in some way? Or would you rather they acknowledged that they are no better than you and related to you on the same level? Personally, I prefer the idea that they are no better than I am. That's just me, though.

There is something to be said for the belief that the faith should change the person, but that's not always how it works.

I prefer to view friends attempts to *save* me as a sign that they really care. If they are truly concerned for your eternal soul, then they are really concerned for you.

I don't ever agree with being snarky about religion. Bitter might have been poor wording. You seem to want to be mean, though. To throw something in their faces, to call them out. I never think that's the best way to go about anything.