My "Christian" friends

[ninerbuff]

I don't drink or smoke. I donate more time and money than any of my family to charitable organizations, I give free education on fitness and exercise, and will help anyone in my family who's down or needs it more than anyone in my family.................and I'm the one that needs to go to church?

 

[SarahRuth]

A couple things are bothering me about this thread.

First, you seem really bitter.

Having gotten that out of the way...

Second, they think you need to be saved from the same things they need to be saved from. Christians do not believe they are perfect, they believe they are forgiven for their sins. It's not that you live just as good a life as they do so you don't need to be saved, it's more like you live just as bad a life as they do therefore you DO need to be saved.

Whether or not being a Christian means your life should change depends on which Christians you ask. Some think all you have to do is ask God for forgiveness and all's good, and some think that you have to actively try and change your lifestyle, and still others think that the simple act of believing and cultivating a relationship with Jesus WILL change you, whether you like it or not. However, I don't know of any Christians who think they have to live a perfect life in order to be saved, they all (as far as I am aware) acknowledge that being entirely sinless is impossible, unless you actually are Jesus.

On the topic of how to approach your friends...

I have a good friend who is a pastor. He's a fabulous guy, we have lunch occassionally, email pretty regularly, and he teaches my kids to play piano. I share with him openly how I feel about religion, about God, about Jesus, about church... but I do so respectfully and intelligently. There have been a few occassions when he has tried to convince me to attend his church. I have no problem letting him know that I do not agree with what he teaches at his church, and what church I attend, religion I follow, choices I make in this regard are between me and God.

I see no reason why you can't just tell your friends that you're not sure what they believe is right, and you're not sure the church they attend teaches what's true, and that you will make your own decisions regarding your religious, or non-religious, path. Let them know that if they think you're wrong, that's fine. You think they could be wrong as well, so it's all good. Acknowledge that you have heard them, and let them know that you appreciate their concern, but make it clear that your choices in this area are your own to make. Tell them that if you decide to visit a church you will consider theirs, but that it's not likely to happen. Also let them know that if you continue to feel pressured to attend church with them that it could have a very negative affect on the friendship as it is starting to make you uncomfortable.

If they respect you as a friend, they should accept this and leave it alone. If they don't... well... I would suggest you find new friends who do respect you and your choices.

 

[Jose Fly]

I don't drink or smoke. I donate more time and money than any of my family to charitable organizations, I give free education on fitness and exercise, and will help anyone in my family who's down or needs it more than anyone in my family.................and I'm the one that needs to go to church?

Apparently so. For many Christians, it's not what you do with your life that matters, it's what you believe. And somehow, that makes total sense to them.

 

[ChristineES]

Apparently so. For many Christians, it's not what you do with your life that matters, it's what you believe. And somehow, that makes total sense to them.

At least we know that atheists and agnostics are just as capable of judging as we theists.

 

[Jose Fly]

First, you seem really bitter.

How so?

Second, they think you need to be saved from the same things they need to be saved from. Christians do not believe they are perfect, they believe they are forgiven for their sins. It's not that you live just as good a life as they do so you don't need to be saved, it's more like you live just as bad a life as they do therefore you DO need to be saved.

But you're missing the point. If these guys made any sort of effort at all to avoid these "sins" or showed any remorse for them, that would be different. So it's more of a "I can do whatever I want, whenever I want and all I have to do is say the magic words and take the magic cracker and wine, and all is forgiven". To me, that seems an extremely shallow and meaningless type of faith.

Whether or not being a Christian means your life should change depends on which Christians you ask. Some think all you have to do is ask God for forgiveness and all's good, and some think that you have to actively try and change your lifestyle, and still others think that the simple act of believing and cultivating a relationship with Jesus WILL change you, whether you like it or not. However, I don't know of any Christians who think they have to live a perfect life in order to be saved, they all (as far as I am aware) acknowledge that being entirely sinless is impossible, unless you actually are Jesus.

Sure, I realize that. But I'm not sure I've ever encountered people who make absolutely no effort to change in any way, yet still consider themselves "saved".

I see no reason why you can't just tell your friends that you're not sure what they believe is right, and you're not sure the church they attend teaches what's true, and that you will make your own decisions regarding your religious, or non-religious, path. Let them know that if they think you're wrong, that's fine.

As I said in the OP, I've been very open and honest with them about exactly how I feel about Christianity. And as I also said, it's to their credit that they didn't take offense.

Also let them know that if you continue to feel pressured to attend church with them that it could have a very negative affect on the friendship as it is starting to make you uncomfortable.

That's the next step I see coming. Eventually I'm pretty sure it's going to come down to me saying, "All right, enough is enough."

If they respect you as a friend, they should accept this and leave it alone. If they don't... well... I would suggest you find new friends who do respect you and your choices.

That would be interesting, given how closely knit the entire social group is. I know my wife would be pretty upset about it.

 

[Jose Fly]

At least we know that atheists and agnostics are just as capable of judging as we theists.

Of course...we all make judgments about the people around us. It's how we decide who to be friends with, who to marry, who to trust as a babysitter, etc.

Anyone who tells you they never judge anyone is lying.

 

[SarahRuth]

Re-read what I said. I'm not "missing the point".

You seem to have made up your mind and you're not actually listening to suggestions, you're just debating them and/or disregarding them. That's fine. Let us know how it goes.

 

[ChristineES]

Of course...we all make judgments about the people around us. It's how we decide who to be friends with, who to marry, who to trust as a babysitter, etc.

Anyone who tells you they never judge anyone is lying.

That was exactly my point.

 

[Jose Fly]

Re-read what I said. I'm not "missing the point".

Sorry about that, but it appeared to me that you were telling me that just because these guys do whatever they want, it's OK to them because they do all the magic stuff on Sunday to be forgiven. Is that what you were saying?

You seem to have made up your mind and you're not actually listening to suggestions, you're just debating them and/or disregarding them. That's fine. Let us know how it goes.

I've gotten some really good suggestions in this thread, and depending on what happens I'm likely going to utilize at least one of them. But hopefully, nothing will happen and it won't matter.

So what exactly makes you think I'm bitter, and what am I bitter about?

 

[Jose Fly]

That was exactly my point.

Awesome!!! :yes:

 

[SarahRuth]

Sorry about that, but it appeared to me that you were telling me that just because these guys do whatever they want, it's OK to them because they do all the magic stuff on Sunday to be forgiven. Is that what you were saying?


I've gotten some really good suggestions in this thread, and depending on what happens I'm likely going to utilize at least one of them. But hopefully, nothing will happen and it won't matter.

So what exactly makes you think I'm bitter, and what am I bitter about?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. There is no "magic" stuff that they do on Sunday.

What suggestions did you think were good? And which ones are you planning to utilize?

 

[Jose Fly]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. There is no "magic" stuff that they do on Sunday.

Then what did you mean when you said:

"they think you need to be saved from the same things they need to be saved from. Christians do not believe they are perfect, they believe they are forgiven for their sins. It's not that you live just as good a life as they do so you don't need to be saved, it's more like you live just as bad a life as they do therefore you DO need to be saved."

...if not that they realize the things they do are sins, but as long as they are "saved" it doesn't matter?

What suggestions did you think were good? And which ones are you planning to utilize?

The suggestions to be very direct, and perhaps even a little snarky about it all.

 

[blackout]

That's interesting that you see smoking as a sin but not gambling. It's probably my Baptist upbringing, but I always thought Christianity taught that they were both sinful. And as I pointed out, these guys don't make any attempt at all to not do these things. In fact, our get togethers are almost always centered around things like poker, booze, cigars, or raunchy movies.

You may point blank tell them that you get together with them to...
drink, gamble, smoke, swear and watch rauncy movies,
NOT to discuss religion,
BUT as THEY seem to feel the need,
(to discuss church and religion)
and you are their friend,
you will set aside ONE evening Only,
for a "religious discussion round table",
in which all participants
(including yourSelf)
will be free to speak candidly,
so that at least,
you will all walk away understanding each other better.
(in that regard)

Then, you are not to be approached again regarding church and religion,
during drinking, smoking, gambling, swearing, raunchy movie nights.

(You might say "Discussions about Church and Religion are for Sunday morning,
which is why you purposely NEVER hang out with them on Sunday morning". )

 

[blackout]

or...

tell them you'll go to church on Suday with them,
the morning after they all go out to the Strip Bar with you on Saturday night.

(push/play with their arbitrary 'boundaries'/non'boundaries a bit)

 

[Kathryn]

What about Hangover 1 and 2? Hot Tub Time Machine? Superbad?

Personally, I don't watch that sort of movie. Mainly because I think they're stupid movies and I have better things to do with my time. Do I think it's a SIN to watch those? Probably so. But - I also think that God has a better sense of humor than we give Him credit for - and I also think He has a higher tolerance level for the weaknesses of humanity than some people give Him credit for.

What about people like me who have all that but aren't Christian? That's kind of my whole point, i.e. that my friends and I live almost exactly the same sort of life, the one exception being the church/Christian stuff.

Here's what I think - I think when it comes to acts of charity, there are many different motivations. They can't judge your motivations, and you can't judge theirs. These are matters of the heart.

That being said, many people of faith will tell you that as they grow in their faith, they become more aware of the needs of others, and more generous and giving than they were without their faith.

That's not what I'm talking about at all. What you just described is more like my parents than these guys. With these friends, we all get together and usually at least two or three of us get drunk enough to need a ride home (we rotate who has to drive), we swear a lot more than the occasional "damn" or "hell", and the movies we watch aren't barely R-rated.

Well, thanks for clarifying.

Yes, I'd call their hand on it.

But it's a matter of perspective as well. Remember I told you that my husband used to be a wild man? I mean - he was OFF THE CHARTS. I am not sure you could come up with an illicit, hedonistic activity the man hasn't done.

He has some remnants of his former life - as I mentioned, he hasn't been able to stop smoking. Working in the oilfield, he also can cuss a blue streak around the crew (though he rarely cusses around me).

I think some holier than thou people might look at him even now and think, "What a sinner." He simply doesn't carry himself like a stereotypical churchy guy - if you know what I mean. He's rowdy and rambunctious and you just get the general impression around him that he's seen and done just about everything under the sun - which would be accurate.

But his Christian faith has given him the strength and wisdom to overcome his former lifestyle. He's a much more stable, wise, kind person than he used to be.

Actually, he's a terrific guy now. He is 53 and I am 49. We only met 7 years ago, after both of us were divorced from our former spouses. Whenever I lament that we met the love of our lives so late in life, he quickly tells me, "You wouldn't have liked me 30 years ago - I was horrible." And he's probably right. IN fact, it was the changes in HIM which created his divorce - his faith changed him and he became a more balanced, moral person - while his ex wife remained in the same mindset as when they married. She divorced him for another man - the type of man he USED to be.

Her loss and my gain - but that's another story.

They like hanging out with me and they want me to be part of the larger social network at the church. The problem is, in order to do that I either have to pretend to be a Christian or I have to turn the logical part of my brain off and start believing. Neither option appeals to me at all.

Well, I don't know about all that. I'm a pretty logical person and I'm a Christian. But I digress.

Church can be a social network. But it can also be a place where a person "recharges" their inner strength, learns things, and experiences a set of emotions they don't experience elsewhere. As your friends, they may want to share those experiences with you, just as you may want to share experiences with them.

That's interesting that you see smoking as a sin but not gambling. It's probably my Baptist upbringing, but I always thought Christianity taught that they were both sinful. And as I pointed out, these guys don't make any attempt at all to not do these things. In fact, our get togethers are almost always centered around things like poker, booze, cigars, or raunchy movies.

Well, I am sure this is debatable, but I think that any habit that controls and destroys your life is a sin. That includes the habits of gambling, smoking, drinking, overeating, etc.

I believe that most things like that are fine in moderation. The trick is in controlling them. This is easy for me to say because luckily I am not a person who becomes addicted to substances or activities easily. For instance, I can gamble once a year (actually it's probably even less than glass of wine in the evening and not - I don't HAVE to have it, and I don't drink too much. In fact, I can even smoke occasionally and have never developed the habit.

I wasn't raised Baptist, but I know a lot of those characters. Personally, I am unimpressed with an overweight person telling me it's a sin for me to go to the boats once a year when they stuff their face every day of the year.

I was raised in a very tolerant family which was also definitely NOT legalistic when it comes to faith. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with playing poker while drinking a few beers and smoking a cigar - sounds like a lot of fun, actually. When's the next party?

 

[waitasec]

That being said, many people of faith will tell you that as they grow in their faith, they become more aware of the needs of others, and more generous and giving than they were without their faith.

oh please kathryn, do you see how superior that comes off as...

even people who are not religious feel the same thing...
yet another attempt to segregate people from people. :sad:

 

[Jose Fly]

Yes, I'd call their hand on it.

Thanks, and that's what I'm pretty sure I'll do.

Church can be a social network. But it can also be a place where a person "recharges" their inner strength, learns things, and experiences a set of emotions they don't experience elsewhere. As your friends, they may want to share those experiences with you, just as you may want to share experiences with them.

Perhaps, but I would think that if I invited them to something multiple times and they consistently answered "No, I think that's stupid" I would quit asking.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with playing poker while drinking a few beers and smoking a cigar - sounds like a lot of fun, actually. When's the next party?

In a couple of weeks. We'll give you a call.

 

[Jose Fly]

UltraViolet,

I'm pretty sure they don't want to have actual debates about religion with me. Whenever I start down that road, they just drop it. And I don't go to strip clubs. I find them depressing.

 

[Oneatatime]

These guys sound more like cultural Christians rather than individuals who make an active choice to be Christians. You get loads of them in the UK who identify themselves as Christian, may go through some of the motions and expect that others are Christians but when all is said and done aren't really dyed in the wool Christians.

I suspect that they are simply operating on the level of social conformity and unconciously act to make you more like them, especially as you are a friend.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I don't drink or smoke. I donate more time and money than any of my family to charitable organizations, I give free education on fitness and exercise, and will help anyone in my family who's down or needs it more than anyone in my family.................and I'm the one that needs to go to church?

Right, because if you go to church, then you don't need to do all those other things. It's a very easy way to be a good person - or, at least, convince yourself that you are.