My "Christian" friends

[Orias]

So here's something that's been on my mind the last week or so....

I have a group of guy friends, all roughly in their 30's to early 40's. We're all married and have kids about the same age and our wives are all good friends. We all get together fairly often, and semi-regularly the guys all get together and do stuff. However, I'm the only non-Christian in the group. Most of the guys work in one manner or another at the church they all go to, with one of them even being a junior pastor (or something like that).

So every once in a while, when we're out doing something one of the guys will do the "You should come to church" thing. Sometimes that's all there is to it, other times it eventually turns into full-blown proselytization. Since I've known these guys for years, I've never had any trouble letting them know how I feel about Christianity and to their credit, it's never gotten heated or anything.

However, recently I've been wondering something....are these guys actually Christians? With the exception of going to church and taking communion, they don't live any different than me. They drink (and get drunk), swear, gamble, watch R-rated movies, comment on women, smoke, and generally do whatever they want. So I'm wondering, what exactly are they trying to convert me to? What exactly am I in need of saving from? It seems to me, their version of "Christianity" is do whatever you like, make no attempt at all to stay away from sin, and once a week say the magic words, drink the magic wine, and eat the magic cracker and it's all good.

So the next time I get asked about going to church or getting "saved", I'm seriously thinking about answering with "Why? What exactly am I being saved from?", and pointing out all the above.

Thoughts?

Its nothing more than Christians doing what they were told to do.

Everyone knows that, a good Christian spreads Christianity

 

[Orias]

Right, because if you go to church, then you don't need to do all those other things. It's a very easy way to be a good person - or, at least, convince yourself that you are.

Ah, the good-guy badge.

I lost mine in the toilet at church

 

[blackout]

UltraViolet,

I'm pretty sure they don't want to have actual debates about religion with me. Whenever I start down that road, they just drop it. And I don't go to strip clubs. I find them depressing.

My suggestions were intended to "put them off" is all.

I didn't expect anyone would actually agree to any of it.
That was kind of the point.:cover:

 

[ChristineES]

oh please kathryn, do you see how superior that comes off as...

even people who are not religious feel the same thing...
yet another attempt to segregate people from people. :sad:

I don't think Kathryn meant that being a Christian makes a person more benevolent. I think she just meant that some people feel as though their having faith may have made them a better person. Some people do need a reason (or an excuse) to do good deeds (most of us don't need an excuse, we do good things not because we have to but because we want to help people, but that is a whole other debate and not a religious one).

 

[Kathryn]

oh please kathryn, do you see how superior that comes off as...

even people who are not religious feel the same thing...
yet another attempt to segregate people from people. :sad:

Funny you would see it that way. I see it as an example of humility. Those who embrace religion will often tell you that their religion helps them become better people - not better than OTHER people - better than they were BEFORE they embraced their religious beliefs.

Sheeze!

 

[waitasec]

Funny you would see it that way. I see it as an example of humility. Those who embrace religion will often tell you that their religion helps them become better people - not better than OTHER people - better than they were BEFORE they embraced their religious beliefs.

Sheeze!

well you contradicted yourself

Here's what I think - I think when it comes to acts of charity, there are many different motivations. They can't judge your motivations, and you can't judge theirs. These are matters of the heart.

That being said, many people of faith will tell you that as they grow in their faith, they become more aware of the needs of others, and more generous and giving than they were without their faith.

seems to me this isn't a matter of the heart...it's a matter of faith.

but the interesting thing you seem to be insinuating is that those who follow a religion need to be told 'by god through faith' about being empathetic can't figure it our for themselves...
when they did and do not credit themselves for doing it....
i mean, there are plenty of non theists who grow and become aware of the world around them and have the courage to stand with their convictions without an ounce of faith in a god...so making a statement like that seems to be sort of segregating people of faith to a superior level, because of their faith...when anyone can.

 

[ChristineES]

I became a better person when I found Jesus. My faith gave me happiness I didn't have before. But as I see it as something I received from God, I suppose non-theists see it as something I found for myself, using my faith as a reason. And, no, my faith has never made me believe that I am better than anyone else. I'm not better than anyone else. Nearly all Christians that I have spoken to say the same thing I do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And, no, my faith has never made me believe that I am better than anyone else. I'm not better than anyone else. Nearly all Christians that I have spoken to say the same thing I do.

I don't know if it's the case for you, but in the case of some (many?) Christians, I get the sense that God is effectively a personification of their values and moral judgements... it's an expression of what they've decided is the "ideal". As someone who's name escapes me at the moment pointed out, people tend not to have Gods that they disagree with.

In that light, when a Christian says something like "I'm not important, but God is perfect and wonderful in every way," since I see their God as an aspect of their own personality, I often take this as "a part of me is perfect and wonderful in every way." IMO, it can be aggranization masquerading as humility.

 

[ChristineES]

I don't know if it's the case for you, but in the case of some (many?) Christians, I get the sense that God is effectively a personification of their values and moral judgements... it's an expression of what they've decided is the "ideal". As someone who's name escapes me at the moment pointed out, people tend not to have Gods that they disagree with.

In that light, when a Christian says something like "I'm not important, but God is perfect and wonderful in every way," since I see their God as an aspect of their own personality, I often take this as "a part of me is perfect and wonderful in every way." IMO, it can be aggranization masquerading as humility.

Yeah, unfortunately, there are some Christians who do behave that way. I certainly can't and won't deny that. Acting humble and actually being humble are two different things.

 

[waitasec]

I became a better person when I found Jesus. My faith gave me happiness I didn't have before. But as I see it as something I received from God, I suppose non-theists see it as something I found for myself, using my faith as a reason. And, no, my faith has never made me believe that I am better than anyone else. I'm not better than anyone else. Nearly all Christians that I have spoken to say the same thing I do.

applying this to the OP...
why then do these friends of the poster seem to imply that they are in a better place because to their faith?

"You should come to church" thing. Sometimes that's all there is to it, other times it eventually turns into full-blown proselytization." ]/quote]
when all along they do exactly what the poster does, which seems to be the trend among a lot of christians...not you , but a lot of other christians...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

applying this to the OP...
why then do these friends of the poster seem to imply that they are in a better place because to their faith?"You should come to church" thing. Sometimes that's all there is to it, other times it eventually turns into full-blown proselytization." ]/quote]
when all along they do exactly what the poster does, which seems to be the trend among a lot of christians...not you , but a lot of other christians...

Speaking for myself, I kinda like being unaffiliated. I can accept good ideas from anywhere: if some Christian group does something in a good way, I can do it that way, too... and justify it to myself by the fact that it's good in its own right.

OTOH, I think that if I actually decided to become a Christian, then this would mean accepting Christian faith and practice in its entirety (and before anyone says anything, I realize that "Christian faith and practice" probably varies from denomination and denomination and from believer to believer). So what would that mean for me?

It wouldn't mean accepting more things that are demonstrably good, because as it is, I can already steal good ideas from Christianity and use them as I please. Instead, it would mean accepting all those ideas that are "Christian", but aren't demonstrably good.

 

[ChristineES]

applying this to the OP...
why then do these friends of the poster seem to imply that they are in a better place because to their faith?

"You should come to church" thing. Sometimes that's all there is to it, other times it eventually turns into full-blown proselytization." ]/quote]
when all along they do exactly what the poster does, which seems to be the trend among a lot of christians...not you , but a lot of other christians...

I can't really speak for others, but sometimes, when people are feeling good about something, they want others to experience it as well. They tend to forget that everyone experiences things differently and that people have to make those kinds of choices for themselves. They also forget that each person has different wants and needs. That's my guess on it.

 

[smoothcriminal12]

Why do some people scoff when Christians avoid these, and some scoff when Christians don't avoid them?

And why do Christians focus on these four activities at all?

I wasn't scoffing. I was just saying...

 

[waitasec]

applying this to the OP...
why then do these friends of the poster seem to imply that they are in a better place because to their faith?

I can't really speak for others, but sometimes, when people are feeling good about something, they want others to experience it as well.

sorta like,
hey this speed metal band really speaks to me...
you should give 'em a listen....as i'm speaking to a person who's a polka fan

They tend to forget that everyone experiences things differently and that people have to make those kinds of choices for themselves. They also forget that each person has different wants and needs. That's my guess on it.

but it is in our nature to want to share...and thats great, especially if the person is open minded into trying out new things...but if it is presented in a way that comes off as you NEED this, then i would call foul ball.

 

[Jose Fly]

And I'm sure on some psychological level, it "feels better" when you finally give in and conform to the group. Because it is awkward being the only non-Christian in a circle of friends. The worst is when I go to church and it's time to take communion. I sit there as they all file past me on their way to the magic wine and crackers.

So yeah, no doubt that if I were to just give in and join the crowd there would be some sort of psychological relief.

 

[waitasec]

Speaking for myself, I kinda like being unaffiliated. I can accept good ideas from anywhere: if some Christian group does something in a good way, I can do it that way, too... and justify it to myself by the fact that it's good in its own right.

i agree.

OTOH, I think that if I actually decided to become a Christian, then this would mean accepting Christian faith and practice in its entirety (and before anyone says anything, I realize that "Christian faith and practice" probably varies from denomination and denomination and from believer to believer). So what would that mean for me?

It wouldn't mean accepting more things that are demonstrably good, because as it is, I can already steal good ideas from Christianity and use them as I please. Instead, it would mean accepting all those ideas that are "Christian", but aren't demonstrably good.

but anyone can do these same good things without religious faith...
it's up to the individual and the courage of their convictions...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

but anyone can do these same good things without religious faith...
it's up to the individual and the courage of their convictions...

That's my point: whatever Christians do that I consider good, I can do them as well without becoming Christian, so for me, becoming Christian would only be a matter of accepting the neutral and negative aspects of the flavour of Christianity in question.

 

[waitasec]

And I'm sure on some psychological level, it "feels better" when you finally give in and conform to the group. Because it is awkward being the only non-Christian in a circle of friends. The worst is when I go to church and it's time to take communion. I sit there as they all file past me on their way to the magic wine and crackers.

So yeah, no doubt that if I were to just give in and join the crowd there would be some sort of psychological relief.

you are what you are...
just because you have contacts that change the color of your eyes from brown to blue...you still have brown eyes...

"don't go changing, to try to please me..."
-billy joel

 

[waitasec]

That's my point: whatever Christians do that I consider good, I can do them as well without becoming Christian, so for me, becoming Christian would only be a matter of accepting the neutral and negative aspects of the flavour of Christianity in question.

i shouldn't have started out with the word "but"....it's a bad habit of mine

 

[Thief]

And I'm sure on some psychological level, it "feels better" when you finally give in and conform to the group. Because it is awkward being the only non-Christian in a circle of friends. The worst is when I go to church and it's time to take communion. I sit there as they all file past me on their way to the magic wine and crackers.

So yeah, no doubt that if I were to just give in and join the crowd there would be some sort of psychological relief.

I've had a similar experience.
Coming into a catholic setting, halfway through grade school...
(leaving out the circumstances to get to the point)
The belief and practice left me sitting as my classmates went to communion.

Years went by, before my 'indoctrination' would be considered sufficient.
Baptism didn't happen until I had one foot out of grade school.

When I had the chance I did ask a priest, about the sacrament.
He seemed firm to the notion that a miracle happens on each occasion.
The bread and wine become body and blood.....literally.

I continued with scripture....I surrendered congregation.

I understand the words of the Carpenter were spoken as metaphor.
He meant something else.

Do we share that understanding of ...'something else'?