My "Christian" friends

[SarahRuth]

I don't think Kathryn meant that being a Christian makes a person more benevolent. I think she just meant that some people feel as though their having faith may have made them a better person. Some people do need a reason (or an excuse) to do good deeds (most of us don't need an excuse, we do good things not because we have to but because we want to help people, but that is a whole other debate and not a religious one).

I think that whether or not people do good things because they just want to help people or because their religion calls for them to is entirely a religious debate, and an awesome one at that.

 

[SarahRuth]

Funny you would see it that way. I see it as an example of humility. Those who embrace religion will often tell you that their religion helps them become better people - not better than OTHER people - better than they were BEFORE they embraced their religious beliefs.

Sheeze!

But there is no way you'll convince me that "I'm a better person now" is an example of humility...

Funny thing... in the group I used to be a part of someone asked at one point who was more humble, the Christian or the Atheist. After pages of discussion regarding this point, with the Christians explaining why the Christian is more humble and the Atheist explaining why Atheists are more humble, I finally jumped in and said that the truly humble people weren't participating in the discussion!!

 

[ChristineES]

I think that whether or not people do good things because they just want to help people or because their religion calls for them to is entirely a religious debate, and an awesome one at that.

Well, maybe I should have said "not necessarily a religious one".
Welcome to the RF.

 

[waitasec]

But there is no way you'll convince me that "I'm a better person now" is an example of humility...

Funny thing... in the group I used to be a part of someone asked at one point who was more humble, the Christian or the Atheist. After pages of discussion regarding this point, with the Christians explaining why the Christian is more humble and the Atheist explaining why Atheists are more humble, I finally jumped in and said that the truly humble people weren't participating in the discussion!!

you are right about that.

but the issue isn't about humility...it's about insolent heedlessness

 

[Kathryn]

But there is no way you'll convince me that "I'm a better person now" is an example of humility...

Funny thing... in the group I used to be a part of someone asked at one point who was more humble, the Christian or the Atheist. After pages of discussion regarding this point, with the Christians explaining why the Christian is more humble and the Atheist explaining why Atheists are more humble, I finally jumped in and said that the truly humble people weren't participating in the discussion!!

I see what you're saying but there are some differences.

I am a stronger person that I used to be. I have more common sense than I used to have. I have more self control. Darn it, I'm wiser than I used to be.

That's because I'm 49 years old. I sure as hell BETTER be wiser than I was when I was 17!

This doesn't mean that I'm not humble. Part of becoming wiser is realizing that the more you know, the more you realize you DON'T know.

Each year we should become better people - regardless of our faith or lack thereof.

People who embrace a faith and then say "I'm a better person because of this faith" aren't usually saying this out of pride. They are saying this out of gratitude - gratitude for the strength that they have found, NOT IN THEMSELVES, but in a Higher Power. They are acknowledging that without the influence of their faith/that Higher Power, they are weaker.

As I've said repeatedly, this does NOT mean that they believe they are BETTER THAN OTHERS. It simply means that they are BETTER WITH THE FAITH THAN THEY WERE WITHOUT IT.

 

[blackout]

I see what you're saying but there are some differences.

I am a stronger person that I used to be. I have more common sense than I used to have. I have more self control. Darn it, I'm wiser than I used to be.

That's because I'm 49 years old. I sure as hell BETTER be wiser than I was when I was 17!

This doesn't mean that I'm not humble. Part of becoming wiser is realizing that the more you know, the more you realize you DON'T know.

Each year we should become better people - regardless of our faith or lack thereof.

People who embrace a faith and then say "I'm a better person because of this faith" aren't usually saying this out of pride. They are saying this out of gratitude - gratitude for the strength that they have found, NOT IN THEMSELVES, but in a Higher Power. They are acknowledging that without the influence of their faith/that Higher Power, they are weaker.

As I've said repeatedly, this does NOT mean that they believe they are BETTER THAN OTHERS. It simply means that they are BETTER WITH THE FAITH THAN THEY WERE WITHOUT IT.

I am my own Higher Power.
I am far better, in every way,
since I embraced total faith in my Own Self.

No gratitude, pride, or humility necessary.

It just is.

 

[Jose Fly]

To most Christians the most important thing is recognizing Jesus as their savior and that no matter how hard they try they can't help but be sinners.

Except these guys really don't seem to try.

Would you rather they look down on you and think of themselves as *better* in some way?

But isn't that inherent in their attempts to "save me"? In the end, they believe I'm hellbound and they're off to Christian Disneyland in the sky.

I prefer to view friends attempts to *save* me as a sign that they really care. If they are truly concerned for your eternal soul, then they are really concerned for you.

That was my mindset the first few times, but as I've been saying, it's starting to get annoying.

I don't ever agree with being snarky about religion. Bitter might have been poor wording. You seem to want to be mean, though. To throw something in their faces, to call them out. I never think that's the best way to go about anything.

Perhaps, but if even after I tell them I'd prefer them not to try and preach to me, if they continue the snarkiness will definitely surface. It is very much in my nature after all.

 

[Kathryn]

I am my own Higher Power.
I am far better, in every way,
since I embraced total faith in my Own Self.

No gratitude, pride, or humility necessary.

It just is.

OK that's great. It works for you. Other ways and beliefs work better for other people.

By the way, gratitude and humility, and even pride, can be very good qualities.

 

[SarahRuth]

Except these guys really don't seem to try.

But isn't that inherent in their attempts to "save me"? In the end, they believe I'm hellbound and they're off to Christian Disneyland in the sky.

Whether or not a person has to try and be a *better* person depends on the Christian you ask. And no, I don't think that their attempts to "save you" mean they look down on you and think they are better. I see it entirely opposite, honestly. You seem convinced that since you all behave in the same ways that means they're not *good Christians* or that there is nothing to be saved from. From their perspective, accepting Jesus saves you from hell. That's all there is to it, period, end of discussion. Behavior doesn't factor into it in the overall perspective. Whether that faith makes you a better person entirely depends on the individual and their understanding/interpretation of how God factors into their lives. Once you accept Jesus into your life, your behavior is between you and God. You can't judge theirs, they shouldn't judge yours.

 

[waitasec]

Whether or not a person has to try and be a *better* person depends on the Christian you ask. And no, I don't think that their attempts to "save you" mean they look down on you and think they are better. I see it entirely opposite, honestly. You seem convinced that since you all behave in the same ways that means they're not *good Christians* or that there is nothing to be saved from. From their perspective, accepting Jesus saves you from hell. That's all there is to it, period, end of discussion. Behavior doesn't factor into it in the overall perspective. Whether that faith makes you a better person entirely depends on the individual and their understanding/interpretation of how God factors into their lives. Once you accept Jesus into your life, your behavior is between you and God. You can't judge theirs, they shouldn't judge yours.

and why do you think it is those that are not "saved" will go to hell according to the believer? is it not because they adhere to the idea that they are gods "...chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
1 peter 2:9

i can see what you mean that some people are genuinely concerned with the eternal souls of people...but at the same time there are those who are concerned about the welfare of people in the here and now...

 

[blackout]

People who embrace a faith and then say "I'm a better person because of this faith" aren't usually saying this out of pride. They are saying this out of gratitude - gratitude for the strength that they have found, NOT IN THEMSELVES, but in a Higher Power. They are acknowledging that without the influence of their faith/that Higher Power, they are weaker.

As I've said repeatedly, this does NOT mean that they believe they are BETTER THAN OTHERS. It simply means that they are BETTER WITH THE FAITH THAN THEY WERE WITHOUT IT.

I am my own Higher Power.
I am far better, in every way,
since I embraced total faith in my Own Self.

No gratitude, pride, or humility necessary.

It just is.

OK that's great. It works for you. Other ways and beliefs work better for other people.

By the way, gratitude and humility, and even pride, can be very good qualities.

And that's fine.
I was just pointing out that there are other models,
and that FAITH AND STRENGTH IN YOURSELF,
can also be a very good quality.

I don't however think this has much to do with the OP at all.
It seems that the issue there is more of a heaven/hell kind of issue.

*UV wonders if there is booze, gambling, smoking and raunchy movies in heaven*...

Perhaps Jose's friends might want to seriously consider NOT going to church on Sundays.

 

[waitasec]

And that's fine.
I was just pointing out that there are other models,
and that FAITH AND STRENGTH IN YOURSELF,
can also be a very good quality.

i agree. the thing is, this very idea that both you and i believe to be true goes against christian doctrine...so it's interesting to see how christians dance around this...

 

[SarahRuth]

and why do you think it is those that are not "saved" will go to hell according to the believer? is it not because they adhere to the idea that they are gods "...chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
1 peter 2:9

i can see what you mean that some people are genuinely concerned with the eternal souls of people...but at the same time there are those who are concerned about the welfare of people in the here and now...

Again, depends on the Christian you ask.

One problem with Christianity, in my opinion, is that there are so many different interpretations of it. You can't say that very much of anything is a "Christian" belief. I have a hard time giving an opinion on why "Christians" think and act the way they do, because they all think and act in such vastly different ways!

And those who believe that they are "chosen", "called out of the darkness", tend to be the ones who don't push it on others so much. Why bother? If God wants you, he'll select you, and there is nothing anyone here on earth can do to change that.

Most people I know are concerned with the welfare of the people in the here and now, even the Christians. Only the Christians tend to be ALSO concerned with people's eternal soul as well. You can't separate them as though they are two separate groups of people, those worried about the eternal soul and those worried about the here and now. Very few Christians think that immediate needs are unimportant, most just put priority on the eternal rather than the present without ignoring either.

 

[waitasec]

Again, depends on the Christian you ask.

One problem with Christianity, in my opinion, is that there are so many different interpretations of it. You can't say that very much of anything is a "Christian" belief. I have a hard time giving an opinion on why "Christians" think and act the way they do, because they all think and act in such vastly different ways!

And those who believe that they are "chosen", "called out of the darkness", tend to be the ones who don't push it on others so much. Why bother? If God wants you, he'll select you, and there is nothing anyone here on earth can do to change that.

having been on the other side of the fence all i saw was evangelical christians patting each other on the back for standing up against the world and it's evil ways and it was a general understanding that it was up to us to save the world...every missed opportunity was lost forever

Most people I know are concerned with the welfare of the people in the here and now, even the Christians. Only the Christians tend to be ALSO concerned with people's eternal soul as well. You can't separate them as though they are two separate groups of people, those worried about the eternal soul and those worried about the here and now. Very few Christians think that immediate needs are unimportant, most just put priority on the eternal rather than the present without ignoring either.

i just finished responding to this post which i think gets to the heart of the matter...

If I, for example, believe that abortion is murder and is wrong, and then I turn around and say I'll compromise on that to get a bridge or road built somewhere, what would that say about my belief in things?

and i replied with...

it would say your personal beliefs do not trump individual freedoms...
and you would think of yourself as being on the same level as those who have different ideas than yours...

i think abortion is wrong but i would never impose my beliefs on anyone

do you see where i'm coming from?

 

[SarahRuth]

having been on the other side of the fence all i saw was evangelical christians patting each other on the back for standing up against the world and it's evil ways and it was a general understanding that it was up to us to save the world...every missed opportunity was lost forever

My husband was raised Catholic, and he converted to Nazarene when he was 18. Nazarene is a very conservative branch of Christianity, at least the ones we have been exposed to are. I was raised with no religion at all, and I learned about religion by studying it, exposing myself to various discussion groups, reading blogs, even visiting churches and such. When I try and discuss religion, specifically Christianity, with him, he has very set ideas on what Christianity IS. It gets very frustrating, but I repeatedly have to explain to him that he sees it that way simply because that is what he was exposed to. He bases all of his understanding of what is Christian on his Catholic upbringing and his time spent in a Nazarene church. I tell him that he should check out a more liberal flavor of Christianity sometime and let me know if he still feels the same.

You saw what you saw because of the people you chose to surround yourself with, and you based your opinion on that. The highly evangelical, conservative churches tend to teach that it is your job to convert the world. Christians who believe in predestination don't believe they can do anything to change anyone's mind. They believe that God chooses. Sure they will share their faith with others when the opportunity presents itself, you never know if God is using you to bring them them message after all, but they don't tend to go down the road of trying to convince anyone. If God wants that person in heaven, eventually God will get through to that person.

There are something like 36,000 flavors of Christianity. They all think differently, yet they all claim to be Christian.

i think abortion is wrong but i would never impose my beliefs on anyone

do you see where i'm coming from?

No, I don't see where you're coming from.
First, how would a person be compromising their belief that abortion is wrong by building a road? I don't see the connection.
Second, I am sure there are beliefs that you feel strongly enough about to cross that line and impose those beliefs on others. In fact, just the fact that you believe that others should not impose their beliefs on others might even fall into that category. They disagree with you, you're telling them they shouldn't push it on you.

 

[waitasec]

My husband was raised Catholic, and he converted to Nazarene when he was 18. Nazarene is a very conservative branch of Christianity, at least the ones we have been exposed to are. I was raised with no religion at all, and I learned about religion by studying it, exposing myself to various discussion groups, reading blogs, even visiting churches and such. When I try and discuss religion, specifically Christianity, with him, he has very set ideas on what Christianity IS. It gets very frustrating, but I repeatedly have to explain to him that he sees it that way simply because that is what he was exposed to. He bases all of his understanding of what is Christian on his Catholic upbringing and his time spent in a Nazarene church. I tell him that he should check out a more liberal flavor of Christianity sometime and let me know if he still feels the same.

You saw what you saw because of the people you chose to surround yourself with, and you based your opinion on that. The highly evangelical, conservative churches tend to teach that it is your job to convert the world. Christians who believe in predestination don't believe they can do anything to change anyone's mind. They believe that God chooses. Sure they will share their faith with others when the opportunity presents itself, you never know if God is using you to bring them them message after all, but they don't tend to go down the road of trying to convince anyone. If God wants that person in heaven, eventually God will get through to that person.

There are something like 36,000 flavors of Christianity. They all think differently, yet they all claim to be Christian.

i didn't get to choose...i was raised with it, basically indoctrinated.
but i get what you are saying and i think i understand...

No, I don't see where you're coming from.
First, how would a person be compromising their belief that abortion is wrong by building a road? I don't see the connection.

well this particular person thinks that his personal beliefs will dictate what he votes for...
so if a candidate say's he's pro choice and wants to pull the troops from afghanistan and fix our really bad educational system, he wont vote for that candidate because he believes abortion is wrong...

Second, I am sure there are beliefs that you feel strongly enough about to cross that line and impose those beliefs on others. In fact, just the fact that you believe that others should not impose their beliefs on others might even fall into that category. They disagree with you, you're telling them they shouldn't push it on you.

this is interesting.
how i see it is that personal beliefs are not personal freedoms...
and you have every right to have your beliefs...it's just that sometimes beliefs are biased....while the default for personal freedom is equally applied to everyone

marriage is a personal freedom, a right that should be given to everyone straight or gay...
your personal belief may say it's morally wrong for gay couples to marry...
and the fact that you can vote on an inalienable right is objectively wrong because it is an infringement on some ones inalienable right...under the banner equality

 

[Jose Fly]

Whether or not a person has to try and be a *better* person depends on the Christian you ask.

Seems an odd sort of faith where you become "saved" but don't change your behavior in any way.

And no, I don't think that their attempts to "save you" mean they look down on you and think they are better. I see it entirely opposite, honestly.

They believe they are "saved" and I am "lost", correct? In the Christian view, "saved" is better than "lost", correct?

You seem convinced that since you all behave in the same ways that means they're not *good Christians* or that there is nothing to be saved from. From their perspective, accepting Jesus saves you from hell. That's all there is to it, period, end of discussion. Behavior doesn't factor into it in the overall perspective.

Whether or not they're "good Christians" isn't for me to say. But I have to wonder why any sort of entity that qualifies as a "god" would send one person off to eternal torture and the other to eternal Disneyland, even though they lived their lives almost identically. Seems rather arbitrary and shallow to me.

Once you accept Jesus into your life, your behavior is between you and God. You can't judge theirs, they shouldn't judge yours.

Well, they'd better not do any judging towards me, seeing as how we all behave essentially the same.

 

[ChristineES]

Seems an odd sort of faith where you become "saved" but don't change your behavior in any way.


They believe they are "saved" and I am "lost", correct? In the Christian view, "saved" is better than "lost", correct?


Whether or not they're "good Christians" isn't for me to say. But I have to wonder why any sort of entity that qualifies as a "god" would send one person off to eternal torture and the other to eternal Disneyland, even though they lived their lives almost identically. Seems rather arbitrary and shallow to me.


Well, they'd better not do any judging towards me, seeing as how we all behave essentially the same.

I have seen people who adopted faith and completely turned their lives around as well as people who still behave the same way after they adopted faith. Just adopting a faith doesn't guarantee that the said person will change in any way. They might or they might not. Just because a person finds faith doesn't guarantee that they will somehow become a "super person". People who have faith are no different than anyone else and you really shouldn't expect them to be. If they judge you and they are not any better than you are, then they are being hypocrites. If they judge others and think they are better and they don't do the same kinds of things, then they are not following Jesus' commands or at least that one command. (It is not my job or my place to say who is a true Christian or a false Christian).
What I have been trying to get across is that Christians are just like anyone else. We are supposed to follow Jesus' commands and hopefully that is what a Christian will do or at least try to do.

 

[tarekabdo12]

So here's something that's been on my mind the last week or so....


So every once in a while, when we're out doing something one of the guys will do the "You should come to church" thing. Sometimes that's all there is to it, other times it eventually turns into full-blown proselytization. Since I've known these guys for years, I've never had any trouble letting them know how I feel about Christianity and to their credit, it's never gotten heated or anything.

If in the church they talk about morals and manners, I think u may go there. Even if u aren't convinced with Christianity as a principle, you can think about the good things you may find in the church then take the good and leave what you don't like. I'm a Muslim, yet I don;t mind if I listen to some christian talks about morals , manners , love and passion. We all share these principle. So why don't you think in a more tolerant way and comprehend the difference between people and notions?

Any way, I hope you the best luck and I hope you 'd always take the right choices.