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"My Father"
- Thread starter Buttons*
- Start date
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Romans explains it quite well:
7 "Blessed are those
whose lawless acts are forgiven.
Blessed are those
whose sins are taken away.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord never counts against him." (Psalm 32:1,2)
9 Is that blessing only for those who are circumcised? Or is it also for those who are not circumcised? We have been saying that God accepted Abraham's faith, and so his faith made him right with God. 10 When did it happen? Was it after Abraham was circumcised, or before? It was before he was circumcised, not after! 11 He was circumcised as a sign of the covenant God had made with him. It showed that his faith had made him right with God before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the father of all believers who have not been circumcised. God accepts their faith. So their faith makes them right with him. 12 Abraham is also the father of the circumcised who believe.
7 "Blessed are those
whose lawless acts are forgiven.
Blessed are those
whose sins are taken away.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord never counts against him." (Psalm 32:1,2)
9 Is that blessing only for those who are circumcised? Or is it also for those who are not circumcised? We have been saying that God accepted Abraham's faith, and so his faith made him right with God. 10 When did it happen? Was it after Abraham was circumcised, or before? It was before he was circumcised, not after! 11 He was circumcised as a sign of the covenant God had made with him. It showed that his faith had made him right with God before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the father of all believers who have not been circumcised. God accepts their faith. So their faith makes them right with him. 12 Abraham is also the father of the circumcised who believe.
Bishka
Veteran Member
Buttons* said:
In what way?
If I understand, or am trying to...the only thing I can muster up at the moment from the recesses of my mind is that the Jews/Hebrews are God's chosen people. More then that, I'd have to go look some things up. I'm not as well-versed in this sort of topic as I'd like to be.
Booko
Deviled Hen
Buttons* said:
The usual responses I hear are:
1. Many of them did become Christian.
2. They will be after the Second Coming anyway, so no biggie.
3. Christ did say something about being mostly not accepted among His own people, after all. It would seem He expected this to happen.
4. Since prophecies about the end times, as stated by Jesus, give a major sign that the Jews must return to Israel, it would've been a problem if there were no Jews left to return, eh?
Bishka
Veteran Member
Gotcha!!Buttons* said:
If you mean differently by that the Torah teaches of a Messiah to come and the New Testament teaches the Messiah came?
For Christians, it is because of what I stated. We believe that the prophecies in Old Testament are fufilled in the New Testament. As well as some of the laws (as in the ten commandments) are the similar in the New Testament.
Booko
Deviled Hen
Buttons* said:
Here's what I was taught in church: because the Tenach amplifies teachings in the NT, because not everything was overturned -- only details of the law, and because it still contains a history that is worth keeping.
I think those were the main points...maybe something will occur later.
Booko
Deviled Hen
Well, I can get a little start on the subject, maybe:ChrisP said:
In Luke 21, Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple is Jerusalem:
Luke 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
By verse 7-8, Jesus addresses His return and warns about people coming in His name. Standing alone, this passage is not clear whether he's referring to "the Return" or just some leaders claiming to speak for Him, but there are parallel passages that make it a little clearer (Matt 24 is one of those):
Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
This is one of the passages that gives a sign of "wars and rumours of wars" that shows up elsewhere:
Luke 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
And later verses predict persecution of Christians...I'll skip those for now..
Here Jesus returns to the subject of the fall of Jerusalem, and appears to warn his followers to get out of town. In addition, he makes a reference to Daniel's "desolation" (also mentioned in Matt 24:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22-23 are more warnings about tough times ahead.
Here's the kicker, where he predicts the Gentiles will be taking over, but does imply there will be an end to that:
21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
And the reference to the Return:
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Here's a bit of a spanner tossed into the works:
Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
The thing about this passage, it primarily discusses events that are supposed to occur shortly after Jesus' death (this generation shall not pass away).
But it points to a longer period as well, when Gentiles will take over Jerusalem, but eventually that time will end, and Jesus will return, etc.
So this is a starting point, but it's like someone dumped out a box of puzzle pieces, and we're looking at a few pieces to try and discern the picture. No -- you can't look at the front of the box either -- that's cheating. :tsk:
Well, this is so brief that I wonder about its utility, but it does in a way stay on topic
, because Buttons* asked why Christians would bother with the Hebrew texts, and I would say one reason is that there is a much better chance of making any sense of the prophetic portions if one looks to the OT prophecies for further guidance.
ChrisP
Veteran Member
Booko said:Well, this is so brief that I wonder about its utility, but it does in a way stay on topic
Thanks. You're right about the puzzle pieces... I'll pray really hard that someone sends the front of the box and maybe it'll turn up
Buttons*
Glass half Panda'd
I dont think I asked my question clearly enough, sorry about that!Booko said:
I mean, Yeshua said "follow my father" ... and because he was Jewish, those who follow Yeshua should also be Jews. To my logic anyway....
See, I don't recall him saying "become Christian" but I do remember him attending the Temple
lunamoth
Will to love
Buttons* said:
But seriously, that really is the back story of many of the Epsitles. The Christ-following Jews in Jerusalem did seem to think that anyone who followed Christ should be Jewish and continue to follow the laws. When non-Jews began converting to the new faith, the old-school followers in Jerusalem thought they should be circumcised. Paul eloquently explains that through Christ we are no longer under the law, and you probably know the famous line about the circumcision of the heart (as in, we don't need to have our flesh cut as a sign of the New Covenant).
luna