• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

"My Father"

Buttons*

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Random said:
Your tendency to be suspicious and dismissive of the OT is a consequece of the strength of Gnostic thought in you, Ash. :) Do you believe the God of the Jews is the Demiurge? It's plausible...many say Yeshua rejected the OT and the Jewish GOD. Or are we on too-dangerous territory here..? :flirt:
Click to expand...

Well if you REALLY want my beliefs into it, I'm not ashamed to tell em.

Yes, I have a tendency to dismiss the Old Testament... and honestly, the majority of the New Testament. Old because it shows an angry, spiteful, jealous god - whom I picture to be the essence of a Demiurge.

I also feel that the New Testament has been changed so many times, that one has to really have strong faith to understand and follow it correctly.

To answer your territorial question ;) I believe that Yeshua would have most certianly rejected the Torah, laws, and the undersanding people have of him today.

BTW, if anyone wants to confront this, we'd best take it to another thread!
 
Hope

Hope

Princesinha
Buttons* said:
I'm also having the greatest difficulty in getting a "good" answer to why the Old Testament is still even attatched to the New one.
Click to expand...

I think all of the answers given so far have been very good. Why do you think they haven't been "good"?

If there are certian stories that help one understand the other... then why not cut out the ones that dont? Such as all teh laws of moses that Christians (and for the most part - American Jews) don't follow whatsoever!

This interests me, because I know that the Bible was very a selectively chosen bit of scripture. I dont feel in my heart that the people responsible for the modern Bible had the true message of Love at heart.
Click to expand...

All the stories in the Bible are relevant. Even the ones about the Law. The key is in discerning which parts are prescriptive, and which parts are descriptive.

People aren't responsible for the modern Bible. The Holy Spirit is. If you have a problem with the Bible, then take that to God.;)
 
Buttons*

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Hope said:
I think all of the answers given so far have been very good. Why do you think they haven't been "good"?
Click to expand...
I don't feel they answer my questions to the full extent. In my opinion, the answers that are given to me only circle around the point I'm making. No one can seem to see what I'm saying. This is how I know that the answers aren't good - though relevant.



Hope said:
All the stories in the Bible are relevant. Even the ones about the Law. The key is in discerning which parts are prescriptive, and which parts are descriptive.
Click to expand...
This makes sense!

However, I'm going to have to be a stickler and say, "Isn't that picking and choosing what you want to follow and what you read just as history?"

Hope said:
People aren't responsible for the modern Bible.
Click to expand...
.... oh? I'll let you read a bit of history... by the way, which version do you read? There are several versions... and they are all slightly different. You tell me how that's what God intended... and that it wasn't man's hand to a page making those slight adjustments.


Hope said:
The Holy Spirit is. If you have a problem with the Bible, then take that to God.;)
Click to expand...
Nope, I'm taking it up with the people who claim it's infallability. Anyway, you have yet to address why Christians aren't Jewish. If you can't answer fully, and just want to point me in the direction of asking a diety who wont answer, I feel you're not quite getting the point of this thread!
 
Hope

Hope

Princesinha
Buttons* said:
Why don't Christians ever claim to be following the God of the Jews? Most ofthe time, Christians claim to be following the God of the Christians! It just boggles my mind! In my understanding, I suppose this is one of the reasons why it was so easy to persecute the jews back in the day. If we all knew and believed that we were following the same diety, you'd think that we wouldn't feel it necessary to treat our "brothers" so poorly.

Yeshua claims the Abrahamic God is his father. He wanted us to follow his father. His father was God of the Jews.... So I think that he wanted us to be good Jews. Yeshua never says, "be good christians... and murder Jews when you feel like it"
Click to expand...

Ahhh....so now we're getting to the real crux of your question.

I'm afraid you are painting all Christians in a very unfair light. The truth of the matter is that Christians do follow the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Most definitely! It is deplorable, I'll admit, that some "Christians" have persecuted Jews----but they are the exception to the rule, and very, very misguided.

Of course Yeshua doesn't tell us to be good Christians----because the term "christian" hadn't been invented during His lifetime on earth. It was a derisive term coined by Gentiles for His followers. But neither does Yeshua tell people to be good Jews. ;)

Your logic is a bit misguided, but I can totally understand why. You see, the term "God of the Jews" was only used to differentiate Him from all the other false gods being worshiped by the pagan nations. The Jews were chosen by God to be a light among the nations, and to reveal who the True God really was. If you read the Scriptures you will see that the Jews repeatedly referred to Him as the "One True God," thus implying all other gods are false. So, the term "God of the Jews" does not really mean He belongs to the Jews and to no one else. The One True God doesn't "belong" to anyone! But the Jews, understandably, as His chosen people, began to see' Him as their own and no one else's. So Jesus, or Yeshua, came along and shattered all these notions. If Yeshua is God, the One True God, then He is the God not only of the Jews, but of anyone who believes in Him. For the One True God is not held captive by any one people group----rather, He transcends all people groups. Does this make sense?
 
Hope

Hope

Princesinha
Buttons* said:
Anyway, you have yet to address why Christians aren't Jewish. If you can't answer fully, and just want to point me in the direction of asking a diety who wont answer, I feel you're not quite getting the point of this thread!
Click to expand...

I think I am getting the point of the thread just fine. ;) See above for your answer why Christians aren't Jewish.
 
Hope

Hope

Princesinha
Here's another way to look at it. Suppose people are going around pretending to be you, Buttons. There are a bunch of "Buttons imposters" out there. They are claiming to be you---this unique, wonderful person named Buttons. Now, wouldn't you be offended by that? You would feel a need to expose all these imposters for who they really are, and to show that you, and you alone, are the one true Buttons. That the rest are just fakes. Because you have a special identity, that no one should be able to take away from you.

It's the closest analogy I can think of with God. It's also the reason why so many people hate it when Christians and Jews say their God is the One True God. But what if He is?? Just entertain that thought for a moment, for the sake of my argument. Wouldn't He be justified in saying all the other "gods" out there that are masquerading as Him are just a bunch of fakes? And if He is the One True God, then His whole creation deserves to know He is, and no one, regardless of race or whatever, should be excluded from claiming Him as their God. This is why Jews don't have to be Christians, nor do Christians have to be Jews. The terms are actually pretty irrelevant in God's eyes.
 
Buttons*

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Hope said:
Ahhh....so now we're getting to the real crux of your question.

I'm afraid you are painting all Christians in a very unfair light. The truth of the matter is that Christians do follow the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Most definitely! It is deplorable, I'll admit, that some "Christians" have persecuted Jews----but they are the exception to the rule, and very, very misguided.
Click to expand...
yes, misguided. There is no doubt that someone who reads racism or persicution of others in such a holy book is terribly misguided. No religion has has a real "glorious" past, as far as i know. Sadly, I'm more aware of "Christian" wrongdoings than any other. Perhaps it's because I see it every day.

Hope said:
Of course Yeshua doesn't tell us to be good Christians----because the term "christian" hadn't been invented during His lifetime on earth. It was a derisive term coined by Gentiles for His followers. But neither does Yeshua tell people to be good Jews. ;)
Click to expand...
But Yeshua was a jew. If we are truly being "little Christ" - from what others have attempted to teach me before - then we are "adopted" Jews in God's eyes. I have been told in a religious studies class, that God makes our spirit Jewish, and that is why he loves us... Yeshua apparently paved that road. Is this wrong? I know that I never really believed what this teacher had suggested to me, but it's another perspective to take into account. no?

Hope said:
Your logic is a bit misguided, but I can totally understand why. You see, the term "God of the Jews" was only used to differentiate Him from all the other false gods being worshiped by the pagan nations. The Jews were chosen by God to be a light among the nations, and to reveal who the True God really was. If you read the Scriptures you will see that the Jews repeatedly referred to Him as the "One True God," thus implying all other gods are false. So, the term "God of the Jews" does not really mean He belongs to the Jews and to no one else. The One True God doesn't "belong" to anyone! But the Jews, understandably, as His chosen people, began to see' Him as their own and no one else's. So Jesus, or Yeshua, came along and shattered all these notions. If Yeshua is God, the One True God, then He is the God not only of the Jews, but of anyone who believes in Him. For the One True God is not held captive by any one people group----rather, He transcends all people groups. Does this make sense?
Click to expand...

This is certainly one way to look at it! It's a nice perspective to have. Though, because I feel that most people take the Bible to be an exact literal word of God, that maybe the Jews had it right? Why would God have chosen people if he didn't belong to them? Jews generally shun non believers of their faith. It is difficult to become jewish if you are not already, and (because my Aunt has gone through this) are talked down to, about being less of a jew than they. Like I've said before, all religions have their ways of descriminating for no good reason. I think i've lost track though.

*MY POINT: Your idea makes sense, could you tell me just how my logic is wrong concerning my assumption?

Yes, THIS is the answer I was looking for! Thank you Hope. People have been dancing around the question since I posted this thing. I'll ruminate on what you've said. ;)
 
Buttons*

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Hope said:
Here's another way to look at it. Suppose people are going around pretending to be you, Buttons. There are a bunch of "Buttons imposters" out there. They are claiming to be you---this unique, wonderful person named Buttons. Now, wouldn't you be offended by that? You would feel a need to expose all these imposters for who they really are, and to show that you, and you alone, are the one true Buttons. That the rest are just fakes. Because you have a special identity, that no one should be able to take away from you.
Click to expand...
Well, it's an analogy that gets your point across, so I'll entertain it :)

Hope said:
It's the closest analogy I can think of with God. It's also the reason why so many people hate it when Christians and Jews say their God is the One True God.
Click to expand...
(random thought_ do people really hate that statement?

Hope said:
But what if He is?? Just entertain that thought for a moment, for the sake of my argument. Wouldn't He be justified in saying all the other "gods" out there that are masquerading as Him are just a bunch of fakes? And if He is the One True God, then His whole creation deserves to know He is, and no one, regardless of race or whatever, should be excluded from claiming Him as their God. This is why Jews don't have to be Christians, nor do Christians have to be Jews. The terms are actually pretty irrelevant in God's eyes.
Click to expand...
It's bold Hope, I'll give you that. For the sake of your argument... We might need a new thread! I'm gonna start one about this, but if you dont want me to, just let me know and I'll erase it ;)
 
Buttons*

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Victor said:
Who says we aren't?

The Jews are the "people of God". Ethnic/cultural connections were but secondary and were dependant upon covenants.
Click to expand...

Christians that I have met claim that they follow the Christian God... not the Jewish one.

Would you care to expound on that second statement Vic? :)
 
Hope

Hope

Princesinha
Buttons* said:
But Yeshua was a jew. If we are truly being "little Christ" - from what others have attempted to teach me before - then we are "adopted" Jews in God's eyes. I have been told in a religious studies class, that God makes our spirit Jewish, and that is why he loves us... Yeshua apparently paved that road. Is this wrong? I know that I never really believed what this teacher had suggested to me, but it's another perspective to take into account. no?
Click to expand...

You are definitely on the right track. ;) In a sense, I guess, you could say we are "adopted Jews." Even Paul talked about this. He said all of us Gentile believers are "grafted in." But, again, being Jewish is not really the point. God may have chosen the Jews as His special people, but that doesn't mean God is Jewish. And even, though, yes, Jesus was born as a Jew, being a Jew was only His earthly identity. Because He is God He can't really be confined as only a Jew. He was Jewish, but so much more than Jewish at the same time. Hope that makes sense, somewhat!
 
Quiddity

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Buttons* said:
CHEATER!!!

Oh well, thanks for the info Vic :)
Click to expand...
C'mon, you could do a little reading. It's worth the read. I know you'd like a short and simple answer but covenant theology is good stuff. Hopefully it will clarify much of the NT and OT connections.
 
Hope

Hope

Princesinha
Buttons* said:
(random thought_ do people really hate that statement?
Click to expand...

Well, people don't like it when Christians say Jesus is the only way to heaven, and that what other people believe is wrong. They think we're being arrogant. So, yeah, I'd say people hate those sorts of statements. At least in my experience.

It's bold Hope, I'll give you that. For the sake of your argument... We might need a new thread! I'm gonna start one about this, but if you dont want me to, just let me know and I'll erase it ;)
Click to expand...
No, that'd be awesome. Go ahead. :D
 
M

may

Well-Known Member
Buttons* said:
If Yeshua's God was the God of the Jews, then why aren't Christians Jewish?
Click to expand...
because being a fleshly Jew is nolonger the deciding factor, it is a persons heart condition, and he wants people from ALL NATIONS .............. nice ......And here they are...... revelation 7;9-10
 
M

may

Well-Known Member
Buttons* said:
I dont think I asked my question clearly enough, sorry about that! :eek:

I mean, Yeshua said "follow my father" ... and because he was Jewish, those who follow Yeshua should also be Jews. To my logic anyway....

See, I don't recall him saying "become Christian" but I do remember him attending the Temple
Click to expand...
i think you will find that Jesus is the one to follow and listen too , because the most high Jehovah said listen to him .
"Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: ‘This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.’"—MATTHEW 3:17.
(Luke 9:35) And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him."
(Isaiah 42:1) Look! My servant, on whom I keep fast hold! My chosen one, [whom] my soul has approved! I have put my spirit in him. Justice to the nations is what he will bring forth.
​
(2 Peter 1:17) For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when words such as these were borne to him by the magnificent glory: "This is my son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved."
(Luke 3:22) and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: "You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you."
 
Buttons*

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Victor said:
C'mon, you could do a little reading. It's worth the read. I know you'd like a short and simple answer but covenant theology is good stuff. Hopefully it will clarify much of the NT and OT connections.
Click to expand...

I read about the first three pages and said, "... i'll get back to this"

:eek:

I'll read some more of it today ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top