"My Father"

[ChrisP]

How so?

Men deciding what a deity means is a BAD thing. For me, the New Testament should just contain the words of Christ as recorded. I'm also a big Paul doubter, but that's just my opinion after reading his work.

 

[lunamoth]

Why did Paul win? Paul didn't even appear until Yeshua had been long gone....

I was being a bit flip... of course it was serious. A lot of Paul's Epistles are directly about this issue. Also, I would not say that Jesus was 'long gone.' Paul's Epistles were written before the Gospels as we have them today.

I'll see if I can find a few quotes about Jesus being for all the nations. It's in Isaiah, although I'm pretty sure there is very little in the Gospels themselves. Perhaps I should tell you that I don't think that the Gospels were written by the actual original disciples of Jesus, but they better represent the voice of the early Christian communities.

 

[Buttons*]

I was being a bit flip... of course it was serious. A lot of Paul's Epistles are directly about this issue. Also, I would not say that Jesus was 'long gone.' Paul's Epistles were written before the Gospels as we have them today.

darn, i knew it was before or after.... i just couldnt remember which!

I'll see if I can find a few quotes about Jesus being for all the nations. It's in Isaiah, although I'm pretty sure there is very little in the Gospels themselves. Perhaps I should tell you that I don't think that the Gospels were written by the actual original disciples of Jesus, but they better represent the voice of the early Christian communities.

well my thinking is just that since Yeshua was Jewish, shouldn't all the nations be Jewish too?

 

[lunamoth]

Men deciding what a deity means is a BAD thing.

Really? Why?

For me, the New Testament should just contain the words of Christ as recorded. I'm also a big Paul doubter, but that's just my opinion after reading his work.

I think that the New Testament has very few of the actual words of Christ recorded verbatim. But, that does not make the NT any less valid, meaningful, inspired or sacred. The Bible was not written 'by the hand of God' as the Quran is believed to be. It is a record of (some) of the earliest Christian communities, what they saw and experienced and what it meant to them. Jesus did not come to write a book, He was the Word. He was the Message, the Way.

2c

 

[lunamoth]

darn, i knew it was before or after.... i just couldnt remember which!

Lol!

well my thinking is just that since Yeshua was Jewish, shouldn't all the nations be Jewish too?

But not all nations are Jewish; one must be born Jewish. The rest of us are Gentiles. So, then the question is are gentiles who follow Christ required to follow Jewish law? Paul said (emphatically) 'no.' And I think that this is consistent with Jesus' teachings as well. Long story short, Jesus showed us that it is the spirit of the law (Love) that is important.

Here is one reference I found regarding Jesus bringing revelation for all nations:

25Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
29"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you now dismiss[d] your servant in peace.
30For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
32a light for revelation to the Gentiles
and for glory to your people Israel." (Luke 2)

In many of the parables Jesus teaches non-Jews and offers them this new 'water' and 'bread.' In fact, although I know there's at least one statement where he says He came for the Jews first, I would not be surprised if actually most of the parables of the NT depict Him teaching/healing/feeding non-Jews.

2 c

 

[ChrisP]

Really? Why?

In answer to all of your post, because God and God's purpose is something men could never perceive and convey in words. Words suck.

 

[Booko]

Thanks. You're right about the puzzle pieces... I'll pray really hard that someone sends the front of the box and maybe it'll turn up

The box turned up in my lap one day. But then, I love puzzles.

If anything turns up for you, it'll probably be designed to suit you, not me. That seems to be the way things work, from what I've seen.

 

[Booko]

Men deciding what a deity means is a BAD thing. For me, the New Testament should just contain the words of Christ as recorded. I'm also a big Paul doubter, but that's just my opinion after reading his work.

I'm notorious for focusing on the "red letters" in the NT.

The commentary can be instructive, but who's the prophet, anyway?

 

[Booko]

In answer to all of your post, because God and God's purpose is something men could never perceive and convey in words. Words suck.

True enough, but isn't it preferable to "see through a glass, darkly" than not to see at all?

The problem seems to happen when we lack humility and begin to think our ideas about God are objective truth.

 

[ChrisP]

True enough, but isn't it preferable to "see through a glass, darkly" than not to see at all?

The problem seems to happen when we lack humility and begin to think our ideas about God are objective truth.

Heh, I don't believe in objective truth so that's not going to happen anytime soon

But the opaque glass is something I see through every day... I just don't put too much stock in what I see. Shapes have a way of getting warped and twisted.

Trust your instincts seems to me the best advice in regard to religion.

 

[Mikey]

Notice that Jesus chose 12 disciples (not 11 or 13). By doing this, by gathering 12 leaders reminiscent of the 12 tribes of Israel, many scholars believe that he was re-defining Israel around himself. It's as if Jesus said, "Israel, you didn't rise to the occasion of being a blessing to the whole world (Isaiah 2:2-4, as one example) so I'll take that job on myself".

Of course, the famous declaration of Peter, "Thou art the Christ (Messiah)..." prompted Jesus to say "upon this rock I will build my church". Now the interesting thing is that word "church". In the original language, the word is "ecclesia".

Now ecclesia is derived from "ek" - meaning "out of" and "caleo" meaning "called". So to translate ecclesia literally would be to say "called-out ones".

So the word "church" literally means "called-out ones". In the context of the New Testament, then, we would say that the called-out ones are a subset of both Jews and Gentiles that are "messianic", that is - they believe that Jesus is the promised Jewish messiah (that was to bless the whole world, by the way) and they follow Jesus as their master.

So no, we're not Jews in the sense that we follow the Jewish traditions - but we have been "grafted in" to one family of God, as Paul put it...

 

[Mike182]

Hey Mikey, welcome to the forum!

if you would like to introduce yourself in our "are you new to RF?" forum, we can give you a better welcoming, as i see this is your first post!

i hope you enjoy your time here, but if you have any problems, please feel free to send any of the forum staff a PM

Thanks!

Mike

 

[Buttons*]

And no one has answered my question yet!

Why is the Old Testament even attatched to the New one?

 

[UnityNow101]

Because the Old Testament contains many prophecies concerning the coming of the Anointed and is an example for all believers of the covenant that God had with the Jewish people. There is substantial wisdom in the Old Testament. Without it, the New Testament would be incomplete. And vice-versa. Could you imagine the whole of the Bible without Psalms or Isaiah or Genesis? It would be severely lacking.

 

[Hope]

Because the Old Testament contains many prophecies concerning the coming of the Anointed and is an example for all believers of the covenant that God had with the Jewish people. There is substantial wisdom in the Old Testament. Without it, the New Testament would be incomplete. And vice-versa. Could you imagine the whole of the Bible without Psalms or Isaiah or Genesis? It would be severely lacking.

Exactly. The New Testament is one facet, and the Old Testament is one facet. They are certainly valuable on their own, but it's only when you put them together that you see the true beauty of the whole.

 

[Random]

If Yeshua's God was the God of the Jews, then why aren't Christians Jewish?

I never can get over this theological indiscrepancy I percieve in Christianity: was it not the case that plainly Yeshua (Jesus Christ) is and was meant to be the one and only Incarnation of the GOD Yahweh? Is this not part of the Mystery of the Incarnation Christians are told to meditate upon?

If Yahweh God is the only ONE TRUE GOD in the Judaic tradition, and Jesus was GOD Incarnate in the same tradition, does this not make Jesus equal to Yahweh in the Flesh?

I once stumped a Catholic scholar by asking this question: perhaps someone here on RF has a more rewarding answer than "Er...no...um...possibly...I don't...eh..."

I feel it is essentially the same question Buttons is asking in the OP, in that the answer to one relates in a very significant way to the other.

 

[Buttons*]

Because the Old Testament contains many prophecies concerning the coming of the Anointed and is an example for all believers of the covenant that God had with the Jewish people. There is substantial wisdom in the Old Testament. Without it, the New Testament would be incomplete. And vice-versa. Could you imagine the whole of the Bible without Psalms or Isaiah or Genesis? It would be severely lacking.

Well let me ask you this... I KNOW that there were books rejected from the Old and New Testaments.... so why didn't they just cut out the irrelevant "law" bits?

 

[Buttons*]

I never can get over this theological indiscrepancy I percieve in Christianity: was it not the case that plainly Yeshua (Jesus Christ) is and was meant to be the one and only Incarnation of the GOD Yahweh? Is this not part of the Mystery of the Incarnation Christians are told to meditate upon?

If Yahweh God is the only ONE TRUE GOD in the Judaic tradition, and Jesus was GOD Incarnate in the same tradition, does this not make Jesus equal to Yahweh in the Flesh?

I once stumped a Catholic scholar by asking this question: perhaps someone here on RF has a more rewarding answer than "Er...no...um...possibly...I don't...eh..."

I feel it is essentially the same question Buttons is asking in the OP, in that the answer to one relates in a very significant way to the other.

This is part of the same subject, and definately relates.

I still don't know why people who are Christian do not, instead, identify themselves as Jews... or "annointed" Jews... but Jews nontheless.

I'm also having the greatest difficulty in getting a "good" answer to why the Old Testament is still even attatched to the New one. If there are certian stories that help one understand the other... then why not cut out the ones that dont? Such as all teh laws of moses that Christians (and for the most part - American Jews) don't follow whatsoever!

This interests me, because I know that the Bible was very a selectively chosen bit of scripture. I dont feel in my heart that the people responsible for the modern Bible had the true message of Love at heart.

 

[Buttons*]

Why don't Christians ever claim to be following the God of the Jews? Most ofthe time, Christians claim to be following the God of the Christians! It just boggles my mind! In my understanding, I suppose this is one of the reasons why it was so easy to persecute the jews back in the day. If we all knew and believed that we were following the same diety, you'd think that we wouldn't feel it necessary to treat our "brothers" so poorly.

Yeshua claims the Abrahamic God is his father. He wanted us to follow his father. His father was God of the Jews.... So I think that he wanted us to be good Jews. Yeshua never says, "be good christians... and murder Jews when you feel like it"

 

[Random]

This is part of the same subject, and definately relates.

I still don't know why people who are Christian do not, instead, identify themselves as Jews... or "annointed" Jews... but Jews nontheless.

I'm also having the greatest difficulty in getting a "good" answer to why the Old Testament is still even attatched to the New one. If there are certian stories that help one understand the other... then why not cut out the ones that dont? Such as all teh laws of moses that Christians (and for the most part - American Jews) don't follow whatsoever!

This interests me, because I know that the Bible was very a selectively chosen bit of scripture. I dont feel in my heart that the people responsible for the modern Bible had the true message of Love at heart.

Your tendency to be suspicious and dismissive of the OT is a consequece of the strength of Gnostic thought in you, Ash. Do you believe the God of the Jews is the Demiurge? It's plausible...many say Yeshua rejected the OT and the Jewish GOD. Or are we on too-dangerous territory here..? :flirt: