My favourite scientific contradiction in the Quran

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes you are - totally so - that is exactly my point - scriptures only mention what came before - proof that they are not from an all knowing god who would deign to predict the future - which is why I am so harsh on the gobbledegook peddled by the likes of @Tony Bristow-Stagg and @Trailblazer

I see you are free to see it that way, but I see in all scripture given by God, the past and the future is written. I see they are all embracing.

It appears we should leave it at that, I wish you all the best in life. May peace be with you.

Regards Tony

 

[Limo]

Background: In another thread @Limo has proposed that the Quran never contradicts science.

Sky can Fall Down on People
The Quran's author thought that the sky/heaven is like a ceiling held up by Allah that can fall to earth or fragments break off and fall on someone. This is obviously impossible as the earth's atmosphere is simply made of gas and outer space is not a solid object.

Please discuss

Hi danieldemol,
Once started reading, I found many interesting points. The start is from being a native Arabic and fluent English speaking, I found inaccurate in Quran translation. I've faced this issue several times but I didn't know how harmful till I started studying this issue.
I put the response in an organized form as I used several sections for linguistic study, scientific references.

Note : Blue color is used for inaccurate translation words​

The answer is in n parts

Part 1 of n
Fragments Kisfan from Sky/Heaven Asamaa​

1. Methodology
I’ve added the following sections:

· Answering the issue
· Scientific references
· Verses used
· Inaccurate translations of sky/heaven, fragment/portion/pie/lump, and ceiling/canopy
· Islamic methodology in explaining Quran​

2. Answer the issue
The beginning is from inaccurate translations (detailed in separate section) in verses 52:44, 34:9:

· It’s inaccurate to translate “Assamaa السماء” to sky or heaven as “Assamaa السماء” is defined in Arabic and Islam is atmosphere including clouds, plans and stars
· It’s inaccurate to translate the falling things in verses “Kisfan كسفاً” to position of sky/heaven, dark lump, pie of) as it’s a huge type of clouds that can eclipse the sun for example Cumulonimbus
· It’s inaccurate to translate “Saqfan سقفاً” to ceiling or canopy as it’s all of them (ceiling/canopy/roof)​

You’ve shared 52:44, 34:9, and 22:45. As explained in section Islamic methodology to explain Quraan, the first choice is Quran itself. So, we need to consult verses 22:65 which explains verses 52:44, 34:9 and verse 22:65 that helps to understand verse 22:45.

30:48
- اللَّهُ الَّذِي يُرْسِلُ الرِّيَاحَ فَتُثِيرُ سَحَابًا فَيَبْسُطُهُ فِي السَّمَاء كَيْفَ يَشَاء وَيَجْعَلُهُ كِسَفًا فَتَرَى الْوَدْقَ يَخْرُجُ مِنْ خِلَالِهِ فَإِذَا أَصَابَ بِهِ مَن يَشَاء مِنْ عِبَادِهِ إِذَا هُمْ يَسْتَبْشِرُونَ
TRANSLITERATION: Allahu allathee yursilu arriyahafatutheeru sahaban fayabsutuhu fee Assamaa -ikayfa yashao wayajAAaluhu Kisafan fatara alwadqayakhruju min khilalihi fa-itha asaba bihiman yashao min AAibadihi itha humyastabshiroon
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: It is Allah who sends the winds, and they stir the clouds and spread them in the sky Assamaa however He wills, and He makes them fragments Kisafan so you see the rain emerge from within them. And when He causes it to fall upon whom He wills of His servants, immediately they rejoice.

Therefore, the thing that is known as fragments Kisafan is in fact a certain type of cloud for example Cumulonimbus. It’s huge cloud enough to eclipse the sun. It’s well known to Arabs at that time. However, what they didn’t know how it’s too heavy.

Explanation of verse 30:48:

· Allah sends winds, winds stir the cloud, Allah spreads the cloud in sky Assamaa however, he wills, and makes them fragments Kisafan so you see the rain emerge from within them. And when He causes it to fall upon whom He wills of His servants, immediately they rejoice
· So Allah makes cloud in a form of fragments Kisafan
· fragments Kisafan is a shape of the cloud. fragments Kisafan is a form of the cloud or a piece of cloud​

Therefore, we use the understanding of fragments Kisafan from verse 30:48 understand other verses:

52:44- وَإِن يَرَوْا كِسْفًا مِّنَ السَّمَاء سَاقِطًا يَقُولُوا سَحَابٌ مَّرْكُومٌ

TRANSLITERATION: Wa-in yaraw Kisafan mina Assama -isaqitan yaqooloo sahabun markoom
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: And if they were to see a fragments Kisafan from the sky Asamaa falling, they would say, "[It is merely] stacked/ a pile of / a heap of clouds heaped up."

Unfortunately, the Arabic word مَّرْكُومٌ markoom should be translated to stacked/ a pile of but the translator mistranslated to heaped up. Other translators translated to “a cumulated” or “Just a heap of clouds” or “a pile of” I can add stacked clouds.

Explanation: If they see fragments Kisafan (huge clouds that eclipse the sun) falling, they’ll under estimate it and say "[It is merely] stacked/ a pile of/ a heap of clouds” will not harm us It’s like any other verse but it’s not true as this is a very heavy cloud

Now, let us see the other verse

34:9- أَفَلَمْ يَرَوْا إِلَى مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُم مِّنَ السَّمَاء وَالْأَرْضِ إِن نَّشَأْ نَخْسِفْ بِهِمُ الْأَرْضَ أَوْ نُسْقِطْ عَلَيْهِمْ كِسَفًا مِّنَ السَّمَاء إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَآيَةً لِّكُلِّ عَبْدٍ مُّنِيبٍ

TRANSLITERATION: Afalam yaraw ila ma baynaaydeehim wama khalfahum mina Assama-i wal-ardiin nasha/ nakhsif bihimu al-arda aw nusqitAAalayhim Kisafan mina Assama-i inna fee thalikalaayatan likulli AAabdin muneeb
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: Then, do they not look at what is before them and what is behind them of the heaven Asamaa and earth? If We should will, We could cause the earth to swallow them or [could] let fall upon them fragments Kisafan from the sky Assama. Indeed in that is a sign for every servant turning back [to Allah ].

Explanation: If “…If We should will, [could] let fall upon them fragments Kisafan from the sky Assama.

Final answer for the issue:

· So, Allah in 34:9 threaten them by dropping fragments Kisafan (type of cloud can eclipse the sun for example Cumulonimbus) from the sky Assama but they will underestimate it as in 52:44 will say "[It is merely] stacked/ a pile of/ a heap of clouds will not harm us but this is not true. The modern science proofed that fragments Kisafan is very heavy and huge
· 21st century science tells us there are many forms of clouds; the biggest form of cloud is Cumulonimbus. A cube of 1 KM X 1 KM X 1 KM weights 500 ton kilograms. The Cumulonimbus can weight from 300.000 ton to 1 million ton kilograms.
· 14 centuries ago, Arabs didn’t know how heavy the fragments Kisafan of cloud, it’s just 21st century or 20th century discovery but Allah knows
​

End of part 1 of n

 

[Limo]

Background: In another thread @Limo has proposed that the Quran never contradicts science.

Sky can Fall Down on People
The Quran's author thought that the sky/heaven is like a ceiling held up by Allah that can fall to earth or fragments break off and fall on someone. This is obviously impossible as the earth's atmosphere is simply made of gas and outer space is not a solid object.

Please discuss

Hi danieldemol,

Part 2 of n​

Second issue : the ceiling

Now, what about verse 22:65 which states that only Allah who restrains the Asamaa from falling upon the earth.

- أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُمْ مَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَالْفُلْكَ تَجْرِي فِي الْبَحْرِ بِأَمْرِهِ وَيُمْسِكُ السَّمَاءَ أَنْ تَقَعَ عَلَى الْأَرْضِ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِالنَّاسِ لَرَءُوفٌ رَحِيمٌ

TRANSLITERATION: Alam tara anna Allaha sakhkhara lakumma fee al-ardi walfulka tajree fee albahribi-amrihi wayumsiku Asamaa an taqaAAa AAalaal-ardi illa bi-ithnihi inna Allahabinnasi laraoofun raheem
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: Do you not see that Allah has subjected to you whatever is on the earth and the ships which run through the sea by His command? And He restrains the sky Asamaa from falling upon the earth, unless by His permission. Indeed Allah, to the people, is Kind and Merciful.

As we proofed, sky/heaven Asamaa is atmosphere including cloud, stars and planets, the whole universe, It’s fair enough for me to refer to the fragments Kisafan to explain this verse as Allah holds these fragments Kisafan which is part of the ceiling/canopy/roof from falling upon the earth. But I’ll stick to the literal definition of the issue:

Let us consult another verse

21:32 - وَجَعَلْنَا السَّمَاءَ سَقْفًا مَّحْفُوظًا ۖ وَهُمْ عَنْ آيَاتِهَا مُعْرِضُونَ

TRANSLITERATION: WajaAAalna Assamaa Saqfan mahfoothan wahum AAan ayatihamuAAridoon
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: And We made the sky Assamaa a protected ceiling, but they, from its signs, are turning away.

We proofed in inaccurate translation section that Saqfan includes all these meanings ceiling/canopy/roof.

What if Saqfan ceiling/canopy/roof fall? Can it fall ?

The “What-If” scenario has been studied and found that it has a very destructive effect on earth as every square meter of earth will have 10 tons of molecules that composes the atmosphere without calculating the weight of clouds.

Therefore, Allah is saying the creator and only the Creator is who keeps this Saqfan ceiling/canopy/roof from dropping on people on earth. ? LiveScience: What If the Sky Fell?

Only Allah can fall the sky:

We believe that Allah the creator can do this anytime. Because he the Merciful he keeps us safe, he created the universe which is in balance but Allah can influence anytime without physical laws and force something to happen like atmosphere changes from gassing state to solid or even liquid state.



3. Scientific References

There are 100 types of clouds can be grouped into one of 10 basic types depending on their general shape and height in the sky. The biggest one is called - It can starts with lowest types of clouds (Low-level clouds) below 6,500 feet (1,981 m) to the heist type (High-level clouds) more than 6000 m 20,000 feet (6,096 m) Their bottoms are often hazy and dark. can easily reach 39,000 feet (12,000 meters) or higher. Atmos.uiuc.edu

If we take a cloud of 1000 meter X 1000 meter X 1000 meter it’s weight will be 500 ton kilograms. Cumulonimbus can weight 1 million tonnes. ThoughtCo

The highest clouds in our atmosphere almost kiss the official boundary of space – 100 kilometres above the ground. These are the Polar Mesospheric Clouds, which exist only at 80-85 kilometres of altitude. They are made of water ice, and exist only for some 60-80 days, a little after the summer solstice. Dr Karl Kruszelnicki's science conundrums: How much does a cloud weigh?

A typical cumulus cloud (Law level) carries about 0.50 grams of water (the weight of a big garden pea) in each cubic metre. (Surprisingly, that's a lot less than the weight of the air in a cubic metre – about 1250 grams) The whole cloud might be one kilometre by one kilometre by one kilometre. So it could carry up to about 500 tonnes of water. (A big fat dark cumulonimbus cloud can carry six times more.) . Dr Karl Kruszelnicki's science conundrums: How much does a cloud weigh?

Paradoxically, this is no airy affair. All the oxygen, nitrogen and other stuff in Earth's atmosphere has a whopping combined mass of 5 quadrillion tons, so a falling sky would mean that nearly 10 tons of molecules — roughly the heft of a school bus — would drop on every square meter of Earth's surface. Pancakes, everyone? LiveScience: What If the Sky Fell?

Vaclav Smil, distinguished professor in the faculty of environment at the University of Manitoba in Canada, said three things would kill us: oxygen deprivation, a severe drop in temperature, and exposure to a full dose of UV radiation from the sun, most of which the atmosphere currently blocks. "But the lack of oxygen comes first and it could not be survived," Smil told Life's Little Mysteries. LiveScience: What If the Sky Fell? Skies cleared

 

[Limo]

Background: In another thread @Limo has proposed that the Quran never contradicts science.

When I posted the list of scientific errors in the Quran available at Scientific Errors in the Qur'an - WikiIslam Limo suggested to me that these lists are not new, and that I should pick one from the list for Muslims to discuss.


Sky can Fall Down on People
The Quran's author thought that the sky/heaven is like a ceiling held up by Allah that can fall to earth or fragments break off and fall on someone. This is obviously impossible as the earth's atmosphere is simply made of gas and outer space is not a solid object.


Please discuss

Hi danieldemol,

Part 3 of n​

4. Verses

52:44- وَإِن يَرَوْا كِسْفًا مِّنَ السَّمَاء سَاقِطًا يَقُولُوا سَحَابٌ مَّرْكُومٌ
TRANSLITERATION: Wa-in yaraw Kisafan mina Assama -isaqitan yaqooloo sahabun markoom
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: And if they were to see a fragments Kisafan from the sky Asamaa falling, they would say, "[It is merely] clouds heaped up."
----------------------------
34:9- أَفَلَمْ يَرَوْا إِلَى مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُم مِّنَ السَّمَاء وَالْأَرْضِ إِن نَّشَأْ نَخْسِفْ بِهِمُ الْأَرْضَ أَوْ نُسْقِطْ عَلَيْهِمْ كِسَفًا مِّنَ السَّمَاء إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَآيَةً لِّكُلِّ عَبْدٍ مُّنِيبٍ
TRANSLITERATION: Afalam yaraw ila ma baynaaydeehim wama khalfahum mina Assama-i wal-ardiin nasha/ nakhsif bihimu al-arda aw nusqitAAalayhim Kisafan mina assama-i inna fee thalikalaayatan likulli AAabdin muneeb
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: Then, do they not look at what is before them and what is behind them of the heaven Asamaa and earth? If We should will, We could cause the earth to swallow them or [could] let fall upon them fragments Kisafan from the sky. Indeed in that is a sign for every servant turning back [to Allah ].
----------------------------
22:65- أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُمْ مَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَالْفُلْكَ تَجْرِي فِي الْبَحْرِ بِأَمْرِهِ وَيُمْسِكُ السَّمَاءَ أَنْ تَقَعَ عَلَى الْأَرْضِ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِالنَّاسِ لَرَءُوفٌ رَحِيمٌ
TRANSLITERATION: Alam tara anna Allaha sakhkhara lakumma fee al-ardi walfulka tajree fee albahribi-amrihi wayumsiku Asamaa an taqaAAa AAalaal-ardi illa bi-ithnihi inna Allahabinnasi laraoofun raheem
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: Do you not see that Allah has subjected to you whatever is on the earth and the ships which run through the sea by His command? And He restrains the sky Asamaa from falling upon the earth, unless by His permission. Indeed Allah, to the people, is Kind and Merciful.
----------------------------
30:48- اللَّهُ الَّذِي يُرْسِلُ الرِّيَاحَ فَتُثِيرُ سَحَابًا فَيَبْسُطُهُ فِي السَّمَاء كَيْفَ يَشَاء وَيَجْعَلُهُ كِسَفًا فَتَرَى الْوَدْقَ يَخْرُجُ مِنْ خِلَالِهِ فَإِذَا أَصَابَ بِهِ مَن يَشَاء مِنْ عِبَادِهِ إِذَا هُمْ يَسْتَبْشِرُونَ
TRANSLITERATION: Allahu allathee yursilu arriyahafatutheeru sahaban fayabsutuhu fee Assamaa -ikayfa yashao wayajAAaluhu Kisafan fatara alwadqayakhruju min khilalihi fa-itha asaba bihiman yashao min AAibadihi itha humyastabshiroon
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: It is Allah who sends the winds, and they stir the clouds and spread them in the sky Assamaa however He wills, and He makes them fragments Kisafan so you see the rain emerge from within them. And when He causes it to fall upon whom He wills of His servants, immediately they rejoice
----------------------------
17:92- أَوْ تُسْقِطَ السَّمَاء كَمَا زَعَمْتَ عَلَيْنَا كِسَفًا أَوْ تَأْتِيَ بِاللّهِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةِ قَبِيلاً
TRANSLITERATION: Aw tusqita Assamaa kamazaAAamta AAalayna Kisafan aw ta/tiya billahiwalmala-ikati qabeela
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL:Or you make the heaven Asamaa fall upon us in fragments Kisafan as you have claimed or you bring Allah and the angels before [us]
----------------------------
26:187- فَأَسْقِطْ عَلَيْنَا كِسَفًا مِّنَ السَّمَاء إِن كُنتَ مِنَ الصَّادِقِينَ
TRANSLITERATION: Faasqit AAalayna Kisafan mina Asamaa -i in kunta mina assadiqeen
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL : So cause to fall upon us fragments Kisafan of the sky Asamaa, if you should be of the truthful."
----------------------------

 

[Limo]

Background: In another thread @Limo has proposed that the Quran never contradicts science.

When I posted the list of scientific errors in the Quran available at Scientific Errors in the Qur'an - WikiIslam Limo suggested to me that these lists are not new, and that I should pick one from the list for Muslims to discuss.


Sky can Fall Down on People
The Quran's author thought that the sky/heaven is like a ceiling held up by Allah that can fall to earth or fragments break off and fall on someone. This is obviously impossible as the earth's atmosphere is simply made of gas and outer space is not a solid object.


Please discuss

Hi danieldemol,

Part 4 of n​

5. Inaccurate Translation:
Important Note: As you know Quran’s language is Arabic. Scholars don’t consider any translations to any language “Quran” but a meaning of Quran. Regardless of Moslem native language, he should pray in Arabic. This is to emphasize the importance to go back to Arabic language for definition and deep/accurate explanation.

should Asamaa السَّمَاء be translated to Sky or heaven or anther word?

What is the meaning for both English words Sky and Heaven in English?

· Heaven in English dictionary:

o A place regarded in various religions as the abode of God (or the gods) and the angels, and of the good after death, often traditionally depicted as being above the sky.
o LITERARY the sky, especially perceived as a vault in which the sun, moon, stars, and planets are situated.
o the abode of God, the angels, and the spirits of the righteous after death; the place or state of existence of the blessed after the mortal life.
· Sky in English dictionary:
o The region of the atmosphere and outer space seen from the earth.
o The area above the earth, in which clouds, the sun, etc. can be seen
o the region of the clouds or the upper air; the upper atmosphere of the earth
o the supernal or celestial heaven
​

What is the meaning of the word Asamaa السَّمَاء in Arabic ?

· From Arabic Language perspective:

o Asamaa: opponent of earth (السَّماءُ : ما يقابلُ الأرض.) i.e. anything over the earth (atmosphere, cloud, space, stars, galaxies….) to the end of the universe
o Asamaa is anything above you and can cover/shadow/screen you( السَّماءُ: كلُّ ما علاكَ فأَظَلَّك) it includes (atmosphere, cloud)
o Asamaa for something is its upper side ( السَّماءُ من كل شيءٍ: أَعْلاه)
o Asamaa: space outside earth (و السَّماءُ الفلك.)
o Asamaa: rain (السَّماءُ: السَّحابُ)
o Asamaa: cloud (السَّماءُ: المطُر
​

· Usage in Quran:

o Allah created 7 skies
o The first one is “The Life Sky” Asmaa Aldunya السماء الدنيا is everything you see in the sky starting from atmosphere, cloud, space. Stars. Till end of universe
o The other 6 are used by angels​

As we can see neither Sky nor Heaven can represent the word Sky in Quran.

o Sky can be used in some verses but should be understood as atmosphere, cloud, space, stars, and anything till end of universe (Opinion of native English speaker is needed: What do you think)
o Sky can be used in some verses when the materialized universe is meant
o Skies shouldn’t be used when Asamaa is plueral as the other 6 skies can’t be included under the meaning of Sky in English
o Heaven shouldn’t be used by any because heaven in English is used for the place of god, angels, saints, good people which is not the case in Islam. The 6 skies are used by angels only however Almaseeh is an exception till he comes back near end of life on earth
o So, neither the word skies nor the word heaven can be used to represent the 7 ASamaway السموات (pleural of Asamaa السماء)​

What the word Kisafan should be translated?

If we look to all English translation of the word Kisafan we’ll find the following:

o A dark lump falling down from the heaven
o Lump from dictionary: a compact mass of a substance, especially one without a definite or regular shape
o A piece of the heaven
o A fragment of the heaven
o A fragment from the sky
o A piece of the sky
o A piece from the sky
o some fragments of the sky
o A ˹deadly˺ piece of the sky​

Kisafen كسفا in Arabic:

· The verb “Ksfكسف “ means to Eclipse. Like: Allah eclipsed the sun كَسَفَ اللَّهُ الشَّمْسَ : حَجَبَهَا
· The noun “Kisf كِسْف” means something eclipses the sun the plural is "Kisafan كِسِفاً​

What in the sky Asamaa can eclipse the sun other than a huge cloud like Cumulonimbus? Cumulonimbus is a very big cloud. So we can say that the Kisafan is the cloud of type Cumulonimbus.

Ceiling in dictionary:

· The upper interior surface of a room or other similar compartment.
· The inside surface of a room that you can see when you look above you
· A ceiling is also an upper limit put on something that varies​

This definition is good especially when it says you’re looking above you.

Some translators uses Canopy

Canopy in dictionary:

· an ornamental cloth covering hung or held up over something, especially a throne or bed.
· a covering, usually of fabric, supported on poles or suspended above a bed, throne, exalted personage, or sacred object.​

It’s not accurate as I understand it’s a thin and most properly not strong

Roof in dictionary:

· The structure forming the upper covering of a building or vehicle.
· The cover of a building
· The external upper covering of a house or other building.​

The Saqfan includes inner and outer or canopy.

As discussed the atmosphere is part of the sky Assamaa in Quran.

The question is:

· How atmosphere can be considered Saqfan ceiling/canopy/roof?

The Saqfan ceiling/canopy/roof function is to protect the earth: How the Atmosphere Protects the Earth

· It acts as a huge blanket, keeping the Earth warmer than it would be without the atmosphere (Canopy, Screening)
· The atmosphere also protects living things on Earth from the sun's harmful ultraviolet radiation (Roof, Ceiling)
· Most meteors are small and will burn up when they pass through the Earth’s atmosphere (roof, protection)​

· The atmosphere also prevents water from vaporizing into space.(Ceiling)

So, atmosphere including clouds is considered Saqfan ceiling/canopy/roof because it does protection, screening, roofing, ceiling, protection, and canaopy.


6. Islamic methodology for explaining Quran
We need to state the Islamic methodology to explain/comment Quran:

o First: by Quran itself. We search in Quran about other verses having the same subject or word(s) and use it to explain the verse that we’re discussing

o Second: Prophet Mohamed’s Hadeethes sayings as he is the best person understands Quran

o Third: companions and ancestors as they either learnt from prophet Mohamed or from companions or from students of companions

o Forth: understanding of the Bedouin or poems especially before Islam or early days of Islam because Quran was addressing these people. They should have understood the meaning of all words and expression, they didn’t ask a lot​

Finished
Regards

 

[ManSinha]

@Limo

I appreciate the trouble you took to create those posts - however for me they prove my point

The Qu'ran was composed and written by people and not any god or Allah no matter how you spin it or claim otherwise

Here is the reasoning:

"Allah" should have known there would be more languages in the world than ancient Arabic
Most muslims today (at least in India) do not speak the original arabic and are dependent on imams and mullahs to provide translation and understanding
A corpus of content meant for humanity should be understood by all sane individuals without any intermediaries
It should not take three posts to provide "translation" and "assamaa" may be the originator of the hindi / urdu word "aasmaan" meaning sky
Also "Allah" cannot "fall the sky" no matter what you want to believe - anymore than your breakfast tomorrow will be delivered by a pink unicorn with a rainbow tail - there are certain laws of physics which supersede any religious beliefs / assertions

There are certainly portions of the content that are relevant - but there are other pieces whose time has passed or is passing by like Surah 3:85 which to me speaks more of intolerance than anything else.

The sooner you acknowledge that the better it will be

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Background: In another thread @Limo has proposed that the Quran never contradicts science.

When I posted the list of scientific errors in the Quran available at Scientific Errors in the Qur'an - WikiIslam Limo suggested to me that these lists are not new, and that I should pick one from the list for Muslims to discuss.

My response was essentially that although a point by point refutation would be in order since even one scientific error would be enough to disprove that the Quran is authored by an omniscient God, nontheless I do have a favourite scientific contradiction so I will put it here for discussion.

Of relevance here will be an extract from the intro to Scientific errors in the Quran followed by my favourite contradiction.

Extract: ‘Some will contest these numerous errors in the Qur'an by appealing to metaphor, alternative meanings, or phenomenological interpretations of the text.

Even supposing alternative explanations were possible in every case, the problem would remain that the Qur’an contains no obvious attempts to differentiate its understanding of the natural world and historical events from the common folklore and unscientific misconceptions of the people living in 7th century Arabia.

An all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect communicator would have been able to foresee how such misleading statements would be understood by future generations and the doubts and confusions they would cause.

Such overwhelming weakness in the Qur'an when we should expect perfection is already reason enough to reject any claims to its divine authorship.’

Now to my favourite contradiction open to all Muslims:

Sky can Fall Down on People
The Quran's author thought that the sky/heaven is like a ceiling held up by Allah that can fall to earth or fragments break off and fall on someone. This is obviously impossible as the earth's atmosphere is simply made of gas and outer space is not a solid object.

And if they were to see a fragment of the heaven falling, they would say: A heap of clouds.
Quran 52:44
See they not what is before them and behind them, of the sky and the earth? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).
Quran 34:9
Hast thou not seen how Allah hath made all that is in the earth subservient unto you? And the ship runneth upon the sea by His command, and He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.
Quran 34:9

Please discuss

I think it's possible these refer to (large numbers of) meteorites/pieces of rock falling from the sky. 52:44 then refers to the people not believing that there could be anything above the clouds that could fall from the sky in this way (and in fact believing that the clouds were weighty things).

 

[danieldemol]

Hi danieldemol,
Once started reading, I found many interesting points. The start is from being a native Arabic and fluent English speaking, I found inaccurate in Quran translation. I've faced this issue several times but I didn't know how harmful till I started studying this issue.
I put the response in an organized form as I used several sections for linguistic study, scientific references.

Note : Blue color is used for inaccurate translation words​

The answer is in n parts

Part 1 of n
Fragments Kisfan from Sky/Heaven Asamaa​

1. Methodology
I’ve added the following sections:

· Answering the issue
· Scientific references
· Verses used
· Inaccurate translations of sky/heaven, fragment/portion/pie/lump, and ceiling/canopy
· Islamic methodology in explaining Quran​

2. Answer the issue
The beginning is from inaccurate translations (detailed in separate section) in verses 52:44, 34:9:

· It’s inaccurate to translate “Assamaa السماء” to sky or heaven as “Assamaa السماء” is defined in Arabic and Islam is atmosphere including clouds, plans and stars
· It’s inaccurate to translate the falling things in verses “Kisfan كسفاً” to position of sky/heaven, dark lump, pie of) as it’s a huge type of clouds that can eclipse the sun for example Cumulonimbus
· It’s inaccurate to translate “Saqfan سقفاً” to ceiling or canopy as it’s all of them (ceiling/canopy/roof)​

You’ve shared 52:44, 34:9, and 22:45. As explained in section Islamic methodology to explain Quraan, the first choice is Quran itself. So, we need to consult verses 22:65 which explains verses 52:44, 34:9 and verse 22:65 that helps to understand verse 22:45.

30:48
- اللَّهُ الَّذِي يُرْسِلُ الرِّيَاحَ فَتُثِيرُ سَحَابًا فَيَبْسُطُهُ فِي السَّمَاء كَيْفَ يَشَاء وَيَجْعَلُهُ كِسَفًا فَتَرَى الْوَدْقَ يَخْرُجُ مِنْ خِلَالِهِ فَإِذَا أَصَابَ بِهِ مَن يَشَاء مِنْ عِبَادِهِ إِذَا هُمْ يَسْتَبْشِرُونَ
TRANSLITERATION: Allahu allathee yursilu arriyahafatutheeru sahaban fayabsutuhu fee Assamaa -ikayfa yashao wayajAAaluhu Kisafan fatara alwadqayakhruju min khilalihi fa-itha asaba bihiman yashao min AAibadihi itha humyastabshiroon
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: It is Allah who sends the winds, and they stir the clouds and spread them in the sky Assamaa however He wills, and He makes them fragments Kisafan so you see the rain emerge from within them. And when He causes it to fall upon whom He wills of His servants, immediately they rejoice.

Therefore, the thing that is known as fragments Kisafan is in fact a certain type of cloud for example Cumulonimbus. It’s huge cloud enough to eclipse the sun. It’s well known to Arabs at that time. However, what they didn’t know how it’s too heavy.

Explanation of verse 30:48:

· Allah sends winds, winds stir the cloud, Allah spreads the cloud in sky Assamaa however, he wills, and makes them fragments Kisafan so you see the rain emerge from within them. And when He causes it to fall upon whom He wills of His servants, immediately they rejoice
· So Allah makes cloud in a form of fragments Kisafan
· fragments Kisafan is a shape of the cloud. fragments Kisafan is a form of the cloud or a piece of cloud​

Therefore, we use the understanding of fragments Kisafan from verse 30:48 understand other verses:

52:44- وَإِن يَرَوْا كِسْفًا مِّنَ السَّمَاء سَاقِطًا يَقُولُوا سَحَابٌ مَّرْكُومٌ

TRANSLITERATION: Wa-in yaraw Kisafan mina Assama -isaqitan yaqooloo sahabun markoom
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: And if they were to see a fragments Kisafan from the sky Asamaa falling, they would say, "[It is merely] stacked/ a pile of / a heap of clouds heaped up."

Unfortunately, the Arabic word مَّرْكُومٌ markoom should be translated to stacked/ a pile of but the translator mistranslated to heaped up. Other translators translated to “a cumulated” or “Just a heap of clouds” or “a pile of” I can add stacked clouds.

Explanation: If they see fragments Kisafan (huge clouds that eclipse the sun) falling, they’ll under estimate it and say "[It is merely] stacked/ a pile of/ a heap of clouds” will not harm us It’s like any other verse but it’s not true as this is a very heavy cloud

Now, let us see the other verse

34:9- أَفَلَمْ يَرَوْا إِلَى مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُم مِّنَ السَّمَاء وَالْأَرْضِ إِن نَّشَأْ نَخْسِفْ بِهِمُ الْأَرْضَ أَوْ نُسْقِطْ عَلَيْهِمْ كِسَفًا مِّنَ السَّمَاء إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَآيَةً لِّكُلِّ عَبْدٍ مُّنِيبٍ

TRANSLITERATION: Afalam yaraw ila ma baynaaydeehim wama khalfahum mina Assama-i wal-ardiin nasha/ nakhsif bihimu al-arda aw nusqitAAalayhim Kisafan mina Assama-i inna fee thalikalaayatan likulli AAabdin muneeb
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: Then, do they not look at what is before them and what is behind them of the heaven Asamaa and earth? If We should will, We could cause the earth to swallow them or [could] let fall upon them fragments Kisafan from the sky Assama. Indeed in that is a sign for every servant turning back [to Allah ].

Explanation: If “…If We should will, [could] let fall upon them fragments Kisafan from the sky Assama.

Final answer for the issue:

· So, Allah in 34:9 threaten them by dropping fragments Kisafan (type of cloud can eclipse the sun for example Cumulonimbus) from the sky Assama but they will underestimate it as in 52:44 will say "[It is merely] stacked/ a pile of/ a heap of clouds will not harm us but this is not true. The modern science proofed that fragments Kisafan is very heavy and huge
· 21st century science tells us there are many forms of clouds; the biggest form of cloud is Cumulonimbus. A cube of 1 KM X 1 KM X 1 KM weights 500 ton kilograms. The Cumulonimbus can weight from 300.000 ton to 1 million ton kilograms.
· 14 centuries ago, Arabs didn’t know how heavy the fragments Kisafan of cloud, it’s just 21st century or 20th century discovery but Allah knows
​

End of part 1 of n

Thanks for sharing with us your research. I would like to share some thoughts on it with you, but first I think a close examination of verse 30:48 would be useful. Could you please highlight the word translated as cloud/s in verse 30:48? Is it a different word to "assama" (sky)?

 

[Limo]

Thanks for sharing with us your research. I would like to share some thoughts on it with you, but first I think a close examination of verse 30:48 would be useful. Could you please highlight the word translated as cloud/s in verse 30:48? Is it a different word to "assama" (sky)?

- اللَّهُ الَّذِي يُرْسِلُ الرِّيَاحَ فَتُثِيرُ سَحَابًا فَيَبْسُطُهُ فِي السَّمَاء كَيْفَ يَشَاء وَيَجْعَلُهُ كِسَفًا فَتَرَى الْوَدْقَ يَخْرُجُ مِنْ خِلَالِهِ فَإِذَا أَصَابَ بِهِ مَن يَشَاء مِنْ عِبَادِهِ إِذَا هُمْ يَسْتَبْشِرُونَ

TRANSLITERATION: Allahu allathee yursilu arriyahafatutheeru sahaban fayabsutuhu fee Assamaa -ikayfa yashao wayajAAaluhu Kisafan fatara alwadqayakhruju min khilalihi fa-itha asaba bihiman yashao min AAibadihi itha humyastabshiroon
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: It is Allah who sends the winds, and they stir the clouds and spread them in the sky Assamaa however He wills, and He makes them fragments Kisafan so you see the rain emerge from within them. And when He causes it to fall upon whom He wills of His servants, immediately they rejoice.

There are 2 words representing Clouds. one word means general cloud and another one means big one that can eclipse the sun

Arabic--TRANSLITERATION--SAHIH INTERNATIONAL--Comment
سَحَابًا------sahaban----------------Clouds-------------------------This word presents all types of clouds
كِسَفًا--------Kisafan-----------------fragments-------------------The Arabic word Kisafan means in Arabic
"Big Cloud that eclipses the sun"
Instead of translating it to fragment or
portion or any misleading word, It should be
kept literally as is and added to a Quran dictionary

Regards

 

[danieldemol]

- اللَّهُ الَّذِي يُرْسِلُ الرِّيَاحَ فَتُثِيرُ سَحَابًا فَيَبْسُطُهُ فِي السَّمَاء كَيْفَ يَشَاء وَيَجْعَلُهُ كِسَفًا فَتَرَى الْوَدْقَ يَخْرُجُ مِنْ خِلَالِهِ فَإِذَا أَصَابَ بِهِ مَن يَشَاء مِنْ عِبَادِهِ إِذَا هُمْ يَسْتَبْشِرُونَ

TRANSLITERATION: Allahu allathee yursilu arriyahafatutheeru sahaban fayabsutuhu fee Assamaa -ikayfa yashao wayajAAaluhu Kisafan fatara alwadqayakhruju min khilalihi fa-itha asaba bihiman yashao min AAibadihi itha humyastabshiroon
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: It is Allah who sends the winds, and they stir the clouds and spread them in the sky Assamaa however He wills, and He makes them fragments Kisafan so you see the rain emerge from within them. And when He causes it to fall upon whom He wills of His servants, immediately they rejoice.

There are 2 words representing Clouds. one word means general cloud and another one means big one that can eclipse the sun

Arabic--TRANSLITERATION--SAHIH INTERNATIONAL--Comment
سَحَابًا------sahaban----------------Clouds-------------------------This word presents all types of clouds
كِسَفًا--------Kisafan-----------------fragments-------------------The Arabic word Kisafan means in Arabic
"Big Cloud that eclipses the sun"
Instead of translating it to fragment or
portion or any misleading word, It should be
kept literally as is and added to a Quran dictionary

Regards

Ok, so my thoughts are as follows.

I think you have latched onto some poor word choice by scientists to give the impression that the sky is suspended like a ceiling (as the Quran seems to suggest in 21:32) and that it can as such catastrophically fall down on us. I would have to check with @Polymath257 that my understanding is correct, however my understanding of the (livescience) article's meaning is that if the atmosphere where converted into a weight per square metre (such as a lump of steel), and then dropped on us in a vacuum, we would be flattened like pancakes.

The reason this can't happen as the article hypothetically suggests, is that at all times this weight pressure of the atmosphere is actually rested upon us, but it is countered by the internal pressure of the air/blood etc inside of us canceling the forces out. So for example a person standing at sea level has 1 atmosphere of pressure on them. 1 atmosphere = 10332.27 kg/m2 which is approximately equal to (but a bit over) 10 tonnes per square metre.

It would be interesting to hear from the experts who wrote the Quran dictionaries why they considered it as "fragment" and not "Big cloud that eclipses the sun", unfortunately I don't think RF has any of those. So we are simply left with the dictionaries the experts have provided which leave room for a lot more ambiguity in interpretation. And it is precisely that ambiguity in the Quran which has led some faithful Muslims to interpret it as a piece of the heaven falling upon the people.

Suppose hypothetically that Muhammad authored the Quran, and that Muhammad considered the sky/heaven to be one like a ceiling as was not uncommon amongst the people of that time and place. Would this not be a most likely explanation for why there is no seperate words introduced and explained in the Quran for the difference between the Earth's atmosphere, and space? After all to avoid confusion when talking about these concepts, modern man was intelligent enough to introduce such seperate concepts as the atmosphere, space, the universe etc, shouldn't the All Knowing be wise enough to avoid such confusion by introducing and explaining these concepts? Why is there only one word "Assama" for sky and heaven and the universe etc?

 

[danieldemol]

I think it's possible these refer to (large numbers of) meteorites/pieces of rock falling from the sky. 52:44 then refers to the people not believing that there could be anything above the clouds that could fall from the sky in this way (and in fact believing that the clouds were weighty things).

I think your interpretation relies upon the ancients not having any experience with meteorites. In reality they have been a repeated occurrence on Earth since it's formation and occurred in the lifetime of Muhammad. In fact the hadith even refer to beliefs the ancients had about the meteorites;

'Abdullah. Ibn 'Abbas reported: A person from the Ansar who was amongst the Companions of Allah's Messenger (pbuh reported to me: As we were sitting during the night with Allah's Messenger (pbuh), a meteor shot gave a dazzling light. Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: What did you say in the pre-Islamic days when there was such a shot (of meteor)? They said: Allah and His Messenger know best (the actual position), but we, however, used to say that that very night a great man had been born and a great man had died, whereupon Allah's Messenger pbuh) said: (These meteors) are shot neither at the death of anyone nor on the birth of anyone. Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, issues Command when He decides to do a thing. Then (the Angels) supporting the Throne sing His glory, then sing the dwellers of heaven who are near to them until this glory of God reaches them who are in the heaven of this world. Then those who are near the supporters of the Throne ask these supporters of the Throne: What your Lord has said? And they accordingly inform them what He says. Then the dwellers of heaven seek information from them until this information reaches the heaven of the world. In this process of transmission (the jinn snatches) what he manages to overhear and he carries it to his friends. And when the Angels see the jinn they attack them with meteors. If they narrate only which they manage to snatch that is correct but they alloy it with lies and make additions to it.
Sahih Muslim 26:5538

 

[Link]

وَلَوْ فَتَحْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ بَابًا مِنَ السَّمَاءِ فَظَلُّوا فِيهِ يَعْرُجُونَ {14}
[Shakir 15:14] And even if We open to them a gateway of heaven, so that they ascend into it all the while,
لَقَالُوا إِنَّمَا سُكِّرَتْ أَبْصَارُنَا بَلْ نَحْنُ قَوْمٌ مَسْحُورُونَ {15}
[Shakir 15:15] They would certainly say: Only our eyes have been covered over, rather we are an enchanted people.
وَلَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا فِي السَّمَاءِ بُرُوجًا وَزَيَّنَّاهَا لِلنَّاظِرِينَ {16}
[Shakir 15:16] And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to the beholders.
وَحَفِظْنَاهَا مِنْ كُلِّ شَيْطَانٍ رَجِيمٍ {17}
[Shakir 15:17] And We guard it against every accursed Shaitan,
إِلَّا مَنِ اسْتَرَقَ السَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُبِينٌ {18}
[Shakir 15:18] But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible flame.


The word used for heaven there is sky (Samaa).

This is one the places it contextualizes what it means by Sky. Also noteworthy, flame, here refers to light from God, and so Jinn are created more from that reality, and this is why Iblis said he is created from fire and Adam from clay.

Ahlulbayt with respect to the sky are lights from God and in earth, they are like mountains, here to firmly establish believers and like river ways towards God as well.

Angels are a subset of Jinn and are referred to as God's soldiers of the sky in another verse:

وَمَا أَنْزَلْنَا عَلَىٰ قَوْمِهِ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ مِنْ جُنْدٍ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ وَمَا كُنَّا مُنْزِلِينَ {28}
[Shakir 36:28] And We did not send down upon his people after him any hosts from heaven, nor do We ever send down.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I think your interpretation relies upon the ancients not having any experience with meteorites. In reality they have been a repeated occurrence on Earth since it's formation and occurred in the lifetime of Muhammad. In fact the hadith even refer to beliefs the ancients had about the meteorites;

'Abdullah. Ibn 'Abbas reported: A person from the Ansar who was amongst the Companions of Allah's Messenger (pbuh reported to me: As we were sitting during the night with Allah's Messenger (pbuh), a meteor shot gave a dazzling light. Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: What did you say in the pre-Islamic days when there was such a shot (of meteor)? They said: Allah and His Messenger know best (the actual position), but we, however, used to say that that very night a great man had been born and a great man had died, whereupon Allah's Messenger pbuh) said: (These meteors) are shot neither at the death of anyone nor on the birth of anyone. Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, issues Command when He decides to do a thing. Then (the Angels) supporting the Throne sing His glory, then sing the dwellers of heaven who are near to them until this glory of God reaches them who are in the heaven of this world. Then those who are near the supporters of the Throne ask these supporters of the Throne: What your Lord has said? And they accordingly inform them what He says. Then the dwellers of heaven seek information from them until this information reaches the heaven of the world. In this process of transmission (the jinn snatches) what he manages to overhear and he carries it to his friends. And when the Angels see the jinn they attack them with meteors. If they narrate only which they manage to snatch that is correct but they alloy it with lies and make additions to it.
Sahih Muslim 26:5538

Which is why I think it could refer to large numbers of meteorites and rocks falling from the skies to the Earth, so many in fact that it would be as if the skies had broken up and a fragment of the sky were falling on the Earth. Indeed, I believe that this will happen in the end times.

 

[Limo]

Ok, so my thoughts are as follows.

I think you have latched onto some poor word choice by scientists to give the impression that the sky is suspended like a ceiling (as the Quran seems to suggest in 21:32) and that it can as such catastrophically fall down on us. I would have to check with @Polymath257 that my understanding is correct, however my understanding of the (livescience) article's meaning is that if the atmosphere where converted into a weight per square metre (such as a lump of steel), and then dropped on us in a vacuum, we would be flattened like pancakes.

The reason this can't happen as the article hypothetically suggests, is that at all times this weight pressure of the atmosphere is actually rested upon us, but it is countered by the internal pressure of the air/blood etc inside of us canceling the forces out. So for example a person standing at sea level has 1 atmosphere of pressure on them. 1 atmosphere = 10332.27 kg/m2 which is approximately equal to (but a bit over) 10 tonnes per square metre.

Allah created the universe in an accurate balanced system and created rules that control the system. We've discovered some of these physical, chemical, astronomical, medical,psychological,,, rules.
Allah breaks the rule anytime if he wills.
We believe that Nooh was ordered to make a ship on land before flood, the fire didn't burn Ibrahim, the water have moved aside to allow Mosa to cross the see, Almaseeh was curing chronicle diseases that modern medicine can't till date,,,,
If Allah wills, he can any time stop the physical rules that keep the atmosphere, keep the sun on the same distance, keep the stars, keep the insects from vanishing people. (this action behind rules are called miracles)
Allah's power is over and bigger from anything He has created.

It would be interesting to hear from the experts who wrote the Quran dictionaries why they considered it as "fragment" and not "Big cloud that eclipses the sun", unfortunately I don't think RF has any of those. So we are simply left with the dictionaries the experts have provided which leave room for a lot more ambiguity in interpretation. And it is precisely that ambiguity in the Quran which has led some faithful Muslims to interpret it as a piece of the heaven falling upon the people.

It's said about Quran "The amazement of it does not diminish.". Always, someone rethink about some verses of Quran and find a new meaning or application. It's acceptable as log as the linguistic and logical reasoning are fine within the rules.
Moslems scientists in medicine, astronomy, geography, history,,, can relate Quran to modern discoveries in their field.

Suppose hypothetically that Muhammad authored the Quran, and that Muhammad considered the sky/heaven to be one like a ceiling as was not uncommon amongst the people of that time and place. Would this not be a most likely explanation for why there is no seperate words introduced and explained in the Quran for the difference between the Earth's atmosphere, and space? After all to avoid confusion when talking about these concepts, modern man was intelligent enough to introduce such seperate concepts as the atmosphere, space, the universe etc, shouldn't the All Knowing be wise enough to avoid such confusion by introducing and explaining these concepts? Why is there only one word "Assama" for sky and heaven and the universe etc?

Assamaa in Arabic is like any word in any other language. ًThe meaning of a word depends on context. Arabs at that time are like Arabs today, understand the word Assamaa from the context. We can distinguish if it means the physical Assamaa or Assamaa(s) that have angels.

Your question can be defined as : Why Allah didn't use new words to distinguish Asamaa with atmosphere from Asamaa of space from Asamaa with Angels to avoid confusion, modern man now understands ?

Good question.
There are many reasons:

• Quran used the existing Arabic language, it's inconvenient to impose new words to people. All inspires all scriptures by the existing language's words of targeted people. Easy to understand. Targeted non believers at the prophet's time should understand the scripture without explanation or translation. Torah is in Hebrew, Injeel was for sure either in Hebrew or Aramaic not by any mean in Greek. Quran is in Arabic
• In any language words are not created. even modern science didn't create words, either reuse existing one or combining 2 or more words together or borrow from other languages
• Quran is for all people all times, It targeted first people of the 7th century (pagan, christian, Jews, Hindus,,,) with the knowledge they've at that time. We also read and understand the meaning of same words in light of modern discoveries and find no contradiction. People will come after will understand the Quran in light of more complicated and accurate science
• Quran has signs for science but not a book of science. For the case we're discussing, Even today the atmosphere is not a simple thing but 6 layers Stratosphere, Mesosphere,,,, Also Modern science says that space is not completely empty but has plasma of hydrogen,helium, and others. Suppose Allah gives more details in Quran, it'll not be understood by ancient people and will be obsoleted by modern people

Regards

​

 

[danieldemol]

Your question can be defined as : Why Allah didn't use new words to distinguish Asamaa with atmosphere from Asamaa of space from Asamaa with Angels to avoid confusion, modern man now understands ?

Good question.
There are many reasons:

• Quran used the existing Arabic language, it's inconvenient to impose new words to people. All inspires all scriptures by the existing language's words of targeted people. Easy to understand. Targeted non believers at the prophet's time should understand the scripture without explanation or translation.

• The Quran contains both explanations and loan words though

• In any language words are not created. even modern science didn't create words, either reuse existing one or combining 2 or more words together or borrow from other languages

• Then what is the correct etymology for “quark” that the experts have missed?

• Quran is for all people all times, It targeted first people of the 7th century (pagan, christian, Jews, Hindus,,,) with the knowledge they've at that time. We also read and understand the meaning of same words in light of modern discoveries and find no contradiction. People will come after will understand the Quran in light of more complicated and accurate science

• This is done by liberally interpreting archaic Arabic ambiguities, stripping them of their historical context, then applying them to modern science after the discovery. Even then you don’t seem to have made much sense in claiming the sky as a ceiling/canopy/roof when it is not suspended like any of these things

• ...Suppose Allah gives more details in Quran, it'll not be understood by ancient people and will be obsoleted by modern people

Provided sufficient explanation was given, and the necessary tools explained, there is no physical difference in learning capacity between a seventh century Arab and a modern human that i’m aware of, we simply have better knowledge due to a longer period of collective aquirement these days. Also much of knowledge will never become obsolete.

Regards

 

[Cooky]

Don't you think that reveling in gotchas is a bit juvenile?

Then science is juvenile.

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

Dhul Qarnayan is Alexander the Great, and that passage is based on the Syriac Alexander Legend/Neshana which also has elements of even older stories like the Epic of Gilgamesh.

NO. Dhul Qarnayan is Cyrus The Great (a Persian monotheistic ruler). This is also supported strongly by the Tanakh ("Old Testament"). Cyrus The Great is considered an Abrahamic Prophet by both the Bible and by Islam.

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

Now to my favourite contradiction open to all Muslims:

Sky can Fall Down on People
The Quran's author thought that the sky/heaven is like a ceiling held up by Allah that can fall to earth or fragments break off and fall on someone. This is obviously impossible as the earth's atmosphere is simply made of gas and outer space is not a solid object.

And if they were to see a fragment of the heaven falling, they would say: A heap of clouds.
Quran 52:44
See they not what is before them and behind them, of the sky and the earth? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).
Quran 34:9
Hast thou not seen how Allah hath made all that is in the earth subservient unto you? And the ship runneth upon the sea by His command, and He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.
Quran 34:9

Please discuss

I find your reading comprehension to be problematic.

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

@Limo

I appreciate the trouble you took to create those posts - however for me they prove my point

The Qu'ran was composed and written by people and not any god or Allah no matter how you spin it or claim otherwise

Here is the reasoning:

"Allah" should have known there would be more languages in the world than ancient Arabic

The Qur'an directly addresses this multiple times:

And if We had made it a Quran in a foreign tongue, they would certainly have said: 'Why have not its communications been made clear? What! a foreign (tongue) and an Arabian!'
Say: 'It is to those who believe a guidance and a healing; and (as for) those who do not believe, there is a heaviness in their ears and it is obscure to them; these shall be called to from a far-off place.'
- (Surah 41:44)

 

[Aupmanyav]

Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, issues Command when He decides to do a thing. Then (the Angels) supporting the Throne sing His glory, then sing the dwellers of heaven who are near to them until this glory of God reaches them who are in the heaven of this world. Then those who are near the supporters of the Throne ask these supporters of the Throne: What your Lord has said? And they accordingly inform them what He says. Then the dwellers of heaven seek information from them until this information reaches the heaven of the world. In this process of transmission (the jinn snatches) what he manages to overhear and he carries it to his friends. And when the Angels see the jinn they attack them with meteors. If they narrate only which they manage to snatch that is correct but they alloy it with lies and make additions to it.
Sahih Muslim 26:5538

Beautiful explanation.