My first post

[sayak83]

Peace and Blessings to all that follow the guidance.

This forum is new to me, and I hope to find individuals that demonstrate intellectual integrity and can provide a civil and fruitful discussion.

That being said, I would like to see if there is anyone that has contentions about Islam. I don't have all the answers and I'm a student of knowledge myself, however, I promise I'll do my best to provide the questioner with a satisfactory response, or the response can open the door to the exchange of ideas in a constructive manner.

I'm not here to convince anyone, because it is my belief that only God that can turn people's hearts. I'm simply here to view your contentions and hopefully, together we can clear them up.

Please name one major contention you have about Islam and we can discuss it.

Are you born into a Muslim family or did you convert?
It is my sense that many Muslim majority countries do not allow other religions to freely preach their religion or allow Muslims to convert to other religions (or become atheists). In your view is this in accordance with Islam? Why or why not?
Many Muslims seem to oppose very established scientific theories like the theory of evolution etc.? What is position regarding science and Islam?
Regards

 

[icehorse]

Yes, there are some who want this and there are a lot that do not want this. In terms of what Islam teaches, the world will be a better place if governed by the law of God. The term sharia just means way. Everything a Muslim should do in life is based upon God's way. These recommendations are taught down to the detail, which was given to us by the Prophet (saw)

Okay, we're agreed about what Muslims want, that's a start. But I see at least two HUGE problems with this:
1 - Billions of people - including me - believe in the separation of church and state. We don't want to be ruled by ANY religion.
2 - Islam is frequently misogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic, and anti-other-faiths. Again, these tendencies divide people, and we need to be united, not divided.

How is this an insult? And how is this all non-Muslims?

You asked about insults in both Surah 1 and Surah 2. I suppose if you're a Muslim, you're not personally insulted by these verses. But for the rest of us, this is very insulting indeed. It seems quite logical for me to conclude that Muslims will conclude that I am somehow "less" than they are because I don't believe in Islam's messages. Not only is this insulting, but again, this is divisive.

Like many religions, Islam's history is quite violent. And this violence is apparent to this day. There are many examples, but I think one that is most revealing is the violence that Shia and Sunni commit against each other. Islam is SO divisive that Muslims kill each other over slight differences.

That's not true in the slightest, rather, it is good to question so that one can get clarity. To think that we can't ask questions is completely absurd.

This was in response to my conclusion that the 2nd Surah informs us that non-believers are doomed by Allah, for the sin of being the way he created us. Okay, tell me how I got this wrong.

@Come2thelight - From what I can tell, you're a sincere person. But defending Islam's claims puts you in an impossible position, because these claims simply do not hold up to thoughtful scrutiny.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam @InvestigateTruth

The number twelve is easier to see with respect to Mohammad's (s) successors in Quran only after accepting Ulil-Amr (4:59) and Al-Qurba (42:23) to be about Ahlulbayt of Mohammad (s).

We should go to what is clearer and more manifest. However, I just want to note that later on the covenant is explained to be about sending Messengers, not about tribal leaders.

Also, the hadiths (Sunni and Shiite) have Rasool (s) alluding to Twelve Captains of Bani-Israel after Musa (a) with respect to how many successors he has.

Also, Ibn Abbas says regarding the Captains per Sunni sources, they became Prophets.


Here let me quote Al-Suyuti Daral Manthur:



وأخرج الطستي عن ابن عباس. أن نافع بن الأزرق قال له: أخبرني عن قوله عز وجل { اثني عشر نقيباً }. قال: اثني عشر وزيراً وصاروا أنبياء بعد ذلك.

وأخرج ابن أبي حاتم عن أبي هريرة قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم " لو صدقني وآمن بي واتبعني عشرة من اليهود لأسلم كل يهودي " كان قال كعب اثني عشر، وتصديق ذلك في المائدة { وبعثنا منهم اثني عشر نقيباً }.

وأخرج أحمد والحاكم " عن ابن مسعود. أنه سئل كم يملك هذه الأمة من خليفة؟ فقال: سألنا عنها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: " اثنا عشر كعدة بني إسرائيل "



Ibn Abbas was asked by Nafa' son of Alzraq, inform me about God's words "Twelve Captains", they were twelve vicegerents (same word used for Haroun wazir) and they became Prophets after that.

Abu Huraira said Rasool (s) said "If they verified and believed in and followed ten from the Jews the Jews would have all submitted", it was said by Kaab "Twelve" (rather then ten) and the verification of that is in Maeeda "and he rose from them Twelve Captains"

Abu Masud was asked how many will have authority/rule from the successors/rulers/caliphs?, he said we asked Rasool (s) so he said "Twelve like the number for the children of Israel".



As for the verse that shows again, the covenant was respect to Messengers and not tribal leaders


لَقَدْ أَخَذْنَا مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ رُسُلًا ۖ كُلَّمَا جَاءَهُمْ رَسُولٌ بِمَا لَا تَهْوَىٰ أَنْفُسُهُمْ فَرِيقًا كَذَّبُوا وَفَرِيقًا يَقْتُلُونَ | Certainly We took a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We sent apostles to them. Whenever an apostle brought them that which was not to their liking, they would deny a part of them, and a part they would slay. | Al-Maaida : 70


The twelve Tribes is actually a myth, and Muslims only accept it to not see the truth about successors of Mohammad (s) in Quran. The Quran says "offspring of those who we carried with Nuh" regarding bani-Israel, and so it's metaphorical.

Asbat is about branches of Musa (a) in the other verses, which refers to his successors as ways after him.

Salam,

The Jews believe God is One. They believe in Torah. They also believe in the leaders who came after Moses.

So, according to Quran, why believing in all these, is still not enough? What was the need for another Messenger (Muhammad), and another Book?

 

[Sheldon]

..including the religion of communism and other "isms"..

What was asked is that do you think that people are really killing others due to what people say they believe, or would it be more about tribal power and wealth?

Communism is an economic system, and a political ideology, not strictly a religion. Though it certainly has quasi religious aspects, the cult of hero worship of some of its leaders being a more obvious one.

 

[Sheldon]

Thinking that encouraging people to turn away from G-d will fix mankind's tendency towards evil is deeply flawed.
We only have to look at historical leaders like Napolean to figure that one out .. but we never learn.

"Napoleon was not irreligious in the ordinary sense of the word. He would not admit that there had ever existed a genuine atheist; he condemned Deism as the result of rash speculation. A Christian and a Catholic, he recognized in religion alone the right to govern human societies. He looked on Christianity as the basis of all real civilization; and considered Catholicism as the form of worship most favorable to the maintenance of order and the true tranquility of the moral world; Protestantism as a source of trouble and disagreements. Personally indifferent to religious practices, he respected them too much to permit the slightest ridicule of those who followed them. It is possible that religion was, with him, more the result of an enlightened policy than an affair of sentiment; but whatever might have been the secret of his heart, he took care never to betray it."

 

[Sheldon]

G-d knows who is lying and who is not.

Well that's just an an unevidenced assertion, but it doesn't really answer the question, which was "did it ever occur to you that when people say they are religious, that they are not lying?

By and large, people act for political reasons. It is not always easy to know, but G-d knows.

Two more sweeping unevidenced assertions.

It seems as if everything is coming home to roost. It seems that Russia and China have decided that they have had enough of being controlled by "the west". It's not going away.. What's to blame?

Both countries have totalitarian leaders, when did they ever respect anyone's rights, foreign or domestic?

Is it religion?..or is it political ideologies?

They're not mutually exclusive, but Putin has been responsible for a massive resurgence in religion, and religious intolerance. Perhaps inevitably given the nature of his leadership, and the fact that he is a despot. It seems less likely that the Chinese leaders are motivated by any religious considerations.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hello Tony, I hope you're well. Are you saying that Islam is in need of being renewed?

Come2thelight. I also hope.you are well and happy. I personally see Allah did renew Islam in Persia in the 19th Century.

I see we now have the capacity to submit to Allah as a united human race. There should be no barriers on Names anymore, as all Religion is from Allah.

May peace be with you always, regards Tony

 

[YoursTrue]

No one can ever say who is going to heaven and who isn't. This is a major misconception. Every human being has a personal account with their Lord.

So would you say there is a spiritual definitive difference between the various sects of any religion? just wondering what you think. Thank for your answer. I mean would you say that any religion is ok with whatever a person aligns himself with?

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm just a Muslim. I only follow the Quran and the Sunnah.

So if I understand you correctly, do you go to a mosque that is not considered a particular unique sect of Islam? After looking into this before, it seems that various sets of teachings differ from other Muslim teachings? Thanks by the way for a considerable explanatory answer from you.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Wars?
Wars are a disgrace.
Peace is a reward to those who seek it, and wars are the result of greed, hatred and domination .... Nothing Godly about them.

That is a tricky one OB.

A lot of times wars are started becauser of greed, hatred and domination against a people that do not want war, in some cases genocide is the intent.

Do defend, or be eliminated?

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The twelve successors of Musa (a) in Quran are:

1. Haroun
2. Samuel
3. Talut
4. Dawood
5. Sulaiman
6. Elyas
7. Alyasa
8. Dul-Kifl
9. Imran
10. Zakariya
11. Yahya
12. Isa

The covenant pertained to these Twelve holy souls who were the Captains to sail the ship of salvation by the name of God! They are the twelve branches (asbat) as ways (umma can be translated as way/course) that God said were a way (collectively) who guided by truth from another perspective.

How about Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Caleb?

According to Jews these were Prophets.

I am not sure I would include Jesus as one of the 12 Leaders of Jews. He was a Messenger with a new Revelation, like Muhammad, or Abraham, so, He was independent of Moses. He had new teachings that was different from Torah.
None of the Jewish Prophets reduced Any of the Laws of Moses, but Jesus with Permission of Allah reduced some of the ordinances, as it is described in the Quran.

 

[Link]

Salam,

The Jews believe God is One. They believe in Torah. They also believe in the leaders who came after Moses.

So, according to Quran, why believing in all these, is still not enough? What was the need for another Messenger (Muhammad), and another Book?

Salam

To end Nubuwa is not an easy task, but the world is coming to an end. All good things must come to an end, and this trial of humanity is coming to a finality.


You ask a good question. Musa (a) prays in the Torah "for the one who you will send", God get's angry at him and says "You have your brother Aaron". What does this mean?

It means two things. One that God doesn't want Musa (a) thinking about the future, but the now. And make his people enlightened and relieve his knot from his tongue through Aaron (a) as opposed to the one you will send.

But did God relieve the knot on Moses' (a) tongue at the end? No, because people didn't honor Aaron (a) and so they didn't become enlightened.

To this day, the Torah both praises Aaron (a) and his family (a), but also condemns Aaron (a) and disconnects the chosen ones from his family. Later books there are praises to Aaron's (a) family as well.

The Tanakh praises some chosen ones like David (a) while condemning others like Talut (a) and Sulaiman (a).

It also tells tall tales of slavery being allowed by God from the get go like Ibrahim's (a) slave and later slaves are allowed as well. This is to do with also corrupting the clear Prophecy in Ismail (a) and chosen king to be followed up by Twelve princes (who would become Kings) in his offspring.

But from the get go, we see Torah talks about exalted ones Adam (a) wants to be of. These exalted ones and tree of life, to me, are obviously the ones alluded to by "the one who you will send". That means, there will be a time, when knowledge of Prophets (a) is spread and their knot on tongues opened.

So according to Torah, there is a universal one to be sent who will relieve the knot on all tongues of Prophets including his. Now, really Musa (a) was looking all the way to the Mahdi (a). But God said, prepare your people now and make them come to your knowledge through Aaron (a). If there is a knot on your tongue because of the ignorant propaganda, he can teach them the secret knowledge that won't be effected by that propaganda.

Thus Aaron (a) was more conveying in tongue and more eloquent, only due, to the situation he was in. Moses (a) being the founder, had to speak things simply.

Now, Allah (swt) wants knowledge to spread. And things are now reaching a climax.

Quran says Mohammad (s) is sent to all mankind, present and future to come. His Ahlulbayt (a) are also sent to all mankind.

Although Musa's (a) prayer was pertaining to the Mahdi (a), Allah (swt) guaranteed the relief of the knot of the Tongue with Imam Mohammad Al-Baqir (a). That at that point, the knowledge, will no longer be hidden and it will be spread.

If you see hadiths of Imam Mohammad Al-Baqir (a), he heavily taught about the light of God. He swears, that the Imam is the light of God in heavens and earth, and that the Imams are the light revealed with Mohammad (s), and that the light is brighter in a believer's heart than sun on midday.

This is showing there is more to the leader that meets the eye. Musa (a) couldn't say "I am the light of the world", or people will think he wanted to be worshiped. Same with Mohammad (s), he said to Ali (a), were it not for people doing to Isa (a) what they did, he would have spoken words about Ali (a) that would have truly exalted him.

However, Imam Mohammad Al-Baqir (a) is very explicit in the station of the Imam. The Ziyarat of Imam Zainal Abideen (A) by Mohamad Al-Baqir (a) is very deep.

Ultimately, the light of Imam (a) is the heart and soul of the next world. He is the stream by which all believers drink from, the rivers are about their reality. It's not real honey, not real whine, not real milk, these are metaphors of a higher reality, the reality of the abundance (Al-Kawthar).

And so the Ahlulbayt (a) were successful to a large extent in bringing people to a very strong middle path about recognizing the light of God and Imams. They don't worship them nor do they neglect their exalted status.

The Imam Mahdi (a) is a final test in Quran, for humanity. They all prepared the way for him. The warnings in Quran that not a city will remain but be destroyed or punished severely by God, are there.

The Mahdi (a) is the universal one sent to all, that means, when he is sent, all humanity will witness him. However, we are lucky in that Mohammad Al-Baqir (a) already cleaved the knowledge and untied the knots on Prophets and Messengers. The knowledge from first and last per ahadith he has spread.

And so the knowledge is there. This is not the issue. The issue is application and preparing for the Mahdi (a). The final test. And going back, it's the final test, because the world is coming to an end and this is the climax test from God. He sent the best of the best (Mohammad (s) and his family (a)) and left one last king from them, and so he is the last of God's chosen. How we respond to him and come to him, is the final test. All good things must come to an end, and this trial is coming to an end.

 

[Link]

How about Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Caleb?

According to Jews these were Prophets.

I am not sure I would include Jesus as one of the 12 Leaders of Jews. He was a Messenger with a new Revelation, like Muhammad, or Abraham, so, He was independent of Moses. He had new teachings that was different from Torah.
None of the Jewish Prophets reduced Any of the Laws of Moses, but Jesus with Permission of Allah reduced some of the ordinances, as it is described in the Quran.

Salam

Ezekiel and Daniel are same person I believe, that is why Dul-Kifl is said to be "The one of two folds", meaning he was split into two persons. There's many reasons why I believe this to be the case but one is that believe in one leader at a time, not two leaders in two different places. I believe the Quran and hadiths are clear, Musa (a) had twelve successors and bani-Israel had their Ahlulbayt to hold on to. At the same time the revelations they reveal appear very similar and how they discuss Gog and Magog is very closely tied.

Jews don't have same concept of Ahlulbayt except that Aaron's family is alluded to be similar to Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim, but they twisted all that, and so there is contradictory verses in the Tanakh about all this.

You are mixing their views with ours. Yushua ibn noon is praised in hadiths but not found in Quran. Hagar story of slavery and jealousy of Sarah (a) is found in ahadith, but Quran doesn't confirm that and tells a different reason why Ismail (a) settled.

Isa (a) is a successor, one of twelve, and if you recall what I explained of each leader having twelve Captains with him, well the twelve Captains with Isa (a) is his predecessors. You thinking of a new covenant and what not, but you don't have mental clarity of how God establishes one family of the reminder and replaces it with another.

Part of the problem you think Bible has not been seriously corrupted. You trust the tanakh too much. The Jews have way more Captains then Twelve after Musa (a).

You are confused and mix a lot of things up. For example, you think the Twelve Captains with Isa (A) is his disciples which is not the case. It's his predecessors that includes Musa (a) and Elyas (a). This is why he talks about Yahya (a) being like Elyas (a) to show Elyas (a) came back, but has to be hidden or will be prosecuted like Yahya (a). And Isa (a) is leaving, and so who holds the position of light of the world during that time? IT's Elyas (a). Thus proving he has to have come back and it's not only that disciples and others witness him that is proof, but logically, if Isa (a) ascends, it implies Elyas (A) returns to hold the position of holy spirit till Mohammad (s).

Disciples are more akin to close companions of Imam Mahdi (a) and Simon (a) like the safeers of his. They are trying to build a leadership that will prepare for his return, and disciples were meant to build leadership to await Mohammad (s).

There is always Twelve Successors. Isa (a) is the last of the successors of Musa (a), this is clear in Quran, I can get into more details, but just notice how this is discussed in Surah Baqara. Messengers (a) were sent in his footsteps (Musa (a)) and Isa (a) is the last of these Messengers taken a covenant by Musa (a) regarding.

 

[Link]

How about Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Caleb?

According to Jews these were Prophets.

I am not sure I would include Jesus as one of the 12 Leaders of Jews. He was a Messenger with a new Revelation, like Muhammad, or Abraham, so, He was independent of Moses. He had new teachings that was different from Torah.
None of the Jewish Prophets reduced Any of the Laws of Moses, but Jesus with Permission of Allah reduced some of the ordinances, as it is described in the Quran.

This is how you think of it. For me it's not about teachings being independent or different. It's the covenant. A leader is a leader, whether dependent or independent.

Also, I don't know if laws were or not changed after by other Prophets (a). This is just assumptions.

Also Isa (a) because he is preparing people for Ghayba till Mohammad (s), is going to, annul things that require an Imam. Many of the rituals are meant for an Imam to be there. It get's corrupted the religion without the Imam and so he nullified all that. Simon (a) as great as he maybe, is not to continue that, as he is not chosen by God.

His predecessors including Musa (a) and Haroun (a) are his family with him, along with the two Mariams (a). You again, are not understanding the covenant and an Ahlulbayt being established by God.

You are trying not to see what Quran says. Isa (a) is connected to Imran (a) by blood, Imran (a) to his predecessors going back to Haroun (a), and Haroun (a) is successor of Musa (a).

Zakariya (a) was brother of Imran (a).

 

[QuestioningMind]

Hello and thank you for your comment.

I'm saying that the test would be null if God was a fact like 2+2=4.

And I'm saying that the test is void if anyone believes that there is a god that is watching and judging them. The true test of morality if what a person does if they're convinced that no one is watching or judging them. Thus your god is only able to 'test' non-believers, since believers don't think that there is anything they do that they are not being watched and judged for.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..your god is only able to 'test' non-believers, since believers don't think that there is anything they do that they are not being watched and judged for.

What sort of argument is that?
It is very clear that anybody, regardless of religious persuasion, can behave badly.

 

[Link]

Salam @InvestigateTruth

Agha Khan Ismailis have way more Imams then Twelve for example. But when one of them came back, he made a whole set of Imams in "Ghayba" between him and an Imam.

You keep assuming the Bible and Jews and Christians, are correct in their creed. There's no reason to assume that, they maybe like Ismailis, getting wrong Imams and mixing it with true Imams and neglecting some Imams and even making up some Imams.

 

[QuestioningMind]

What sort of argument is that?
It is very clear that anybody, regardless of religious persuasion, can behave badly.

I'm certainly not arguing that there aren't people who can't behave badly. The OP claimed that god's 'test' would be void if god were to reveal himself as real... like 2 + 2 = 4. That's because someone who thinks they're always being watched and might get punished isn't going to do what's really in their heart.

My response is that then the 'test' is void for anyone who genuinely believes that this god is real and is watching and judging their every move. The only ones that this god can actually test are non-believers who don't have any belief that they're always being watched and judged and simply do or don't do bad things based on what they feel in their heart in the right thing to do.

 

[oldbadger]

I was specifically referring to WWII.

And that was a disgrace as well.
Japan's invasion of parts of China was utterly disgusting, as was it's invasion of Thailand, Burma, all SE Asia. And Germany's attacks on European countries was filth as well.

In China, nationalist and communist forces resumed the civil war in June 1946. Communist forces were victorious and established the People's Republic of China on the mainland, while nationalist forces retreated to Taiwan in 1949. In the Middle East, the Arab rejection of the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine and the creation of Israel marked the escalation of the Arab–Israeli conflict. While European powers attempted to retain some or all of their colonial empires, their losses of prestige and resources during the war rendered this unsuccessful, leading to decolonisation.
World War II - Wikipedia

Who wrote that? What is your point?

..as we all know, USSR disintegrated but China has now become the 2nd. wealthiest nation.

So what? You've just pointed out earlier that Western Nation's powers disintintegrated, but we are all still here, as is Russia.

I believe that the west was granted victory in WWII, but things have changed a lot since then.
People get used to being privileged .. it's human nature. However, it is often our own pride that causes our downfall.
The world belongs to G-d, and He gives sovereignty to whomsoever He wills.

God is too vast to be aware of this tiny planet in a minor solar system amongst billions in this galaxy, of which there are billions in this universe, so humans who actually think that God considers recent mankind to be special...... this has to be some kind of arrogant megalomania,....No?

There resident power here in this who universe is Mother Nature, and everything bows before her, everybody and everything.

 

[muhammad_isa]

My response is that then the 'test' is void for anyone who genuinely believes that this god is real and is watching and judging their every move..

No it's not .. that's the whole point.
One has to consciously think that they are being watched, and even then, one can still think they might "get away with it".

..and so they might. Eventually, however, all that we do catches up with us.