My first post

[joelr]

@joelr

Hello and sorry for the late reply. Got busy past few days.

“So why would you believe a later version of a similar revelatory religion”

My belief doesn’t rely on these stories, but other reasons.

“Paul claimed to speak to Jesus from heaven and Muhammad claimed to speak with the angel Gabrielle.”

Paul’s incident was once, while the revelation came down for 23 years and people witnessed something happening when the revelation would come. So much so, that some orientalists called him epileptic. So it is quite known that these weren’t just a vision like Paul claimed to have.

“We don't believe when people make claims to have spoken with deities so what is special about these?”

Yes, we don’t. I haven’t accepted anyone’s claim but Muhammad’s. There are multiple and overwhelming reasons why I accept.

Nope. Paul spoke with Jesus many times and many conversations. Just because the stories say "he was epileptic" you think that equates to it being actual messages from an angel??That makes no sense, it's like literally when people thought a seizure was a possession? That isn't evidence?

Why would Muhammad's claim be any different (for actual reasons besides epilepsy?) from Paul? Or any other claim about speaking with a divinity?

 

[danieldemol]

@danieldemol

“Why do you say technically they shouldn't fast when the Quran says they should fast, from when "the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast till the night appears" surah 2:187”

Because during those periods, such a distinction isn’t possible. Therefore, technically excused from fasting and as compensation they can feed a needy person or make up the days at a later period as the Quran dictates. However, this isn’t the case today and as stated, the Muslim communities in those locations found it best to follow Mecca timings.

You are making a claim here that it is "as the Quran dictates" but not demonstrating it.

Where in the Quran does it say that a Muslim may feed a needy person or make up the days at a later period due to inability to distinguish those periods.

Also why do you say there is no ability to distinguish those periods when there is, but they occur six months apart. Wouldnt it be more correct to say it is perfectly possible to distinguish those periods, just not possible to fast between them?

In my opinion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The topic is people being held as slaves by other people..

No it isn't.
You are the one who is trying to 'rule' by diversion.

That's what it is all about for you.
You have an agenda of fear-mongering.

Quote this verse .. quote that verse .. browbeat.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I always try to go by facts, not by belief.

Mmm .. what you've been taught .. your education.
..and your culture, too.

The first few years of life have quite an effect on us.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Besides, how many hundreds of times does Allah have to call unbelievers "wicked, evil, perverted, etc." before you get the message. Your god ..... hates us. Period.

It's already been explained to you.
G-d hates lies.
A person who disbelieves, and is not lying, has nothing to fear.

We need to be very careful though. We are complex creatures.
We can even convince ourselves of something, when deep down, we know it to be false.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That is right. None others (of the wives) were nine-year olds when their marriage was consummated..

Yeah .. attack the "leader" and it all comes tumbling down.

It's all pointless. What you have to show, is that the prophet's wives were maltreated against their will.

..and you can't do that, so you're wasting your time.

 

[paarsurrey]

Welcome.
Why does a prophet of God deny what another prophet of God said.
I am speaking of Muhammad denying what Jesus said, that He would be killed and rise from the dead?

Muhammad did not deny any other prophet of G-d, I understand.
It is mentioned in Quran in unequivocal and unambiguous manner:

Quran 2:5
وَالَّذِیۡنَ یُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ بِمَاۤ اُنۡزِلَ اِلَیۡکَ وَمَاۤ اُنۡزِلَ مِنۡ قَبۡلِکَ ۚ وَبِالۡاٰخِرَۃِ ہُمۡ یُوۡقِنُوۡنَ ؕ﴿۵﴾
English - Sher Ali
And who believe in that which has been revealed to thee, and that which was revealed before thee, and they have firm faith in what is yet to come.
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

Right?

Regards

 

[Audie]

No it isn't.
You are the one who is trying to 'rule' by diversion.

That's what it is all about for you.
You have an agenda of fear-mongering.

Quote this verse .. quote that verse .. browbeat.

I dont think we are afraid of "Islam", the word is more like " appalled".

 

[Aupmanyav]

Mmm .. what you've been taught .. your education.
..and your culture, too.
The first few years of life have quite an effect on us.

You are right. Not the first few years, but when I was young (around 18 years of age or so). My grandfather was an orthodox Hindu theist (wrote a 8,000 verse Sanskrit law book in the manner of Manusmriti - VishweshwaraSmriti - lit. the reflections of Vishweshwara, 1947). But he accepted the advances of science, astrophysics, Paleontology, plate tectonics, etc. Those had indelible effect on me.

Brahmanastu samutpannah jagaduktam purātanaih, navyā vidyutakanotpannam manyate tadshamshayam.
In older times, they said the universe arose out of Brahman. People of today, believe that to have arisen certainly from atoms.
Saiva tāpe prakāshe cha chumbake vidyudādishu, bhuvi graheshu sūryeshu cha sarvatrāstīti nishchitam.
That energy certainly exists everywhere in heat, light, magnetism, electricity, etc., and in planets, and Sun.
Nīhārāt sarvamutpannam brahmānde sacharācharam, atou navatitattvāni karanāniha tasya tu.
The eternal universe universe arose from the nebulae, and the ninety elements* are the reason for it.
Panchatattvāmayi vyākhya syātsamkshepakritā pura, yatau bhumau jale vāyou samlīnānyeshu bhūrishah.
In earlier times the universe was taken as composed of five elements, this must have been said for brevity, because Earth, water and air are composed of many elements. etc.
Bishweshwar Nath Reu - Wikipedia

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah .. attack the "leader" and it all comes tumbling down.

What I am writing is history recounted by Muslim historians. Mohammad consummated his marriage with Safiyyah bint Huyayy within three days of the Battle of Khyber, in which her husband was killed. He did not wait for the iddah period to get over.
Safiyya bint Huyayy - Wikipedia

"In Islam, iddah or iddat (Arabic: العدة; period of waiting) is the period a woman must observe after the death of her husband or after a divorce, during which she may not marry another man. .. For a woman whose husband has died, the ‘iddah is four lunar months and ten days after the death of her husband, whether or not the marriage was consummated."
Iddah - Wikipedia

It is mentioned in aḥādīth.

 

[Sheldon]

The feminist agenda is not part of Islam.

Muslim men acknowledge this, and so do Muslim women.
Good Muslim women want to marry a good Muslim man.
etc.

Your sweeping claim about all Muslim women is pretty ludicrous, even before you inserted the word "good" as a caveat, and produced that no true Scotsman fallacy.

 

[Sheldon]

They don't see it as subjugation; rather obedience to Allah's dictate in verse 4:34 that men are in charge of women because of their innate superiority. It's as much a part of Islam as not eating pork.

Yet in other countries and cultures Muslim women have greater autonomy, there is a clash of cultures sometimes, when men resort to egregious violence or even murder, as they don't want to lose the control over women. However many Muslims seem mould their beliefs to these new cultural ideas where women have increasing autonomy over their lives.

Christianity had to be largely neutered and dragged into the 21st century, I think we can have some optimism that Islam can be similarly improved. After all it is unrealistic to think religious beliefs are going anywhere anytime soon, so tackling the more pernicious doctrines and dogma is perhaps the best course.

 

[England my lionheart]

Mmm .. what you've been taught .. your education.
..and your culture, too.

The first few years of life have quite an effect on us.

They do like circumcism and being brainwashed by their parents immams priests rabbis,kind of Hobson’s choice.

 

[Muffled]

I believe I have no contentions. Islam is what God intended it to be: an alternative to Judaism but it does not provide salvation as Christianity does.

 

[Muffled]

Welcome.
Why does a prophet of God deny what another prophet of God said.
I am speaking of Muhammad denying what Jesus said, that He would be killed and rise from the dead?

I believe that is not the case. I had to go back and reread the account in the Bible to discover the truth.

 

[paarsurrey]

Brian2 said: ↑
Welcome.
Why does a prophet of God deny what another prophet of God said.
I am speaking of Muhammad denying what Jesus said, that He would be killed and rise from the dead?

I believe that is not the case. I had to go back and reread the account in the Bible to discover the truth.

Thanks and regards

____________
#887

 

[stevecanuck]

Yet in other countries and cultures Muslim women have greater autonomy, there is a clash of cultures sometimes, when men resort to egregious violence or even murder, as they don't want to lose the control over women. However many Muslims seem mould their beliefs to these new cultural ideas where women have increasing autonomy over their lives.

Right. Nothing in the Qur'an is proof of what Muslims in various parts of the world do. It's only proof of what they are told to do.

Christianity had to be largely neutered and dragged into the 21st century, I think we can have some optimism that Islam can be similarly improved. After all it is unrealistic to think religious beliefs are going anywhere anytime soon, so tackling the more pernicious doctrines and dogma is perhaps the best course.

To improve Islam is to change it, and that can simply not be done. If it's changed, it becomes a different religion.

 

[stevecanuck]

I believe I have no contentions. Islam is what God intended it to be:

Then why aren't you a Muslim? Islam (via the Qur'an) tells you a few times that God does not have a son. It tells you Jesus is merely a prophet and that he did not die on the cross.

it does not provide salvation as Christianity does.

It certainly does. After about 22 years of evolution, the Qur'an settles on a position described by verse 9:111

"Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed".

 

[ppp]

We can even convince ourselves of something, when deep down, we know it to be false.

Such as the position that we have good reason too believe that any god exists.

 

[stevecanuck]

No it isn't.
You are the one who is trying to 'rule' by diversion.

That's what it is all about for you.
You have an agenda of fear-mongering.

Quote this verse .. quote that verse .. browbeat.

When you use ad homs in lieu of arguments, you're advertising the fact that you don't actually have any arguments.

I challenged you to tell me what I have wrong, and I'm still waiting for a real example.