My first post

[Come2thelight]

@Link

Not sure how you have arrived at all these different conclusions. There seem to be a lot of assumptions going on.

Yesterday you said the Quranic words weren't changed, so how do you explain all the ayahs that talk about submission? Submission is the end result and the defining position.

 

[Link]

@Link

Not sure how you have arrived at all these different conclusions. There seem to be a lot of assumptions going on.

Yesterday you said the Quranic words weren't changed, so how do you explain all the ayahs that talk about submission? Submission is the end result and the defining position.

Salam

They are defensive explanations. The Quran comes from the viewpoint it understands doubts of people. This is saying, yes you have to obey Mohammad (s), but that's not the goal of Mohammad (s) to just power himself over you, it's actually to get you to submit to God.

For example "No reward do I ask for it", is all under this theme. That disbelievers say, Mohammad (s) is power hungry, say no wealth, still, he get's reputation, get's to control people, etc....

So Quran is saying I understand your doubts, but at the end, I establish such authority because submission to me through the guidance I appoint is the way.

The religion is submission is addressing their doubts about Mohammad (s) and the reward he is accused of seeking. It's saying, this is the way to submit to God, so it might me selfish from viewpoint he is false, but it's the way towards God if he is true.

So for example 25:57 is saying all that he is accused of power, obedience to him, control, is but a way towards God.

42:23 is saying what is all that but just submitting to God while just loving and recognizing the chosen kin for who they are since they are the means to God and submitting to him.

Mohammad (s) directly submits to God but others have to submit to God through him. This may cause a lot of doubts, why can't God talk directly to us is an example of such a doubt raised in Quran. Why not Angels manifested to us in real life instead?

All these were doubts, so submission, is discussed in this context.

 

[Come2thelight]

Hello and thank you for the welcoming.

Isn't the Quran complete already? Why do you need Hadith as complementary when the Quran is a complete revelation from God?

What do you mean by complete?

The problem Muslims have with Hadith is, they dont know for sure if a Hadith is authentic or correct with absolute certainty.

Hadith means narration or a talk or sayings. The Quran also calls itself a Hadith because it is the proposed narrations of God to the Prophet, (18:6) and all humanity.

When we are referring to Hadith Al Nabawi it means the narrations of the Prophet. Which are a compilation of sayings and teachings of Muhammad that were compiled by Muslims years after Muhammad.

Hadith definitely has its merits. People use to say whatever they want about the Prophet for personal gain, for example, if a person was selling something they'd say "I heard the Prophet once say that buying such and such brings you blessings" and thus people would buy it from them. Or even some could say some horrible things and attribute it to the Prophet.

So for the Muslims (like Bukhari) to take the difficult task to go through all possible narrations and verify each one is definitely something that has benefited us today.

The way they verify it is by going through all the chains of people that narrated this. This chain has to go back to the Prophet, and if one chain was in question, then that hadith wouldn't be considered authentic. When I say in question, I mean a few things; if the individual was ever known to be a liar or even just lied once, or if the individual wasn't just, or if the individual wasn't God-fearing, and last but not least, if the narration lacked precision based on what others have said.

Some Muslims in the past created something called Elim Al Rijaal, (Knowledge or Science of People) in other words, Biographical evaluation. This is where they set a bunch of criteria that need to be met in order for the person's testimony to count or a way they grade a particular narration. Feel free to read up on it more here if you'd like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biographical_evaluation

I must note that when Muslims & Non-Muslims take one Hadith and claim its truth without considering the overall message of Islam are not being fair in their conclusion and thus we shouldn't consider their claim to be true. For example, the hadiths about the apostasy contention.

A major reason why doing such an act is incorrect, is because no one knows what happened before or after that incident, nor do we not always know the context of a particular Hadith. It's similar to reading one random page about a novel and claiming we know what the novel is all about. Or watching a scene from an episode and knowing what the whole show is about. This is clearly an issue that some Muslims are guilty of all the time, and it is one of the biggest catalysts on why Muslims are still divided. As for the non-Muslims, some think they have piercing ammo, but it turns out to be water.

Hadith gives us another dimension of Islam. Yes, the Quran according to us is the only living miracle from God and the Quran's recitation brings us blessings.

However, the hadith gives us an idea as to how this man lived and dealt with people and how others dealt with him, and so forth. We as Muslims try to reenact these teachings to the best of our abilities. As it was the customs since the start.

So, how do you decide if a Hadith is authentic?

Can you give an example of a Hadith that you believe is authentic and how can you tell it is authentic.

Check these videos out...

 

[Come2thelight]

@Link Walai brother, you type a lot, and so much is worthy of scrutiny, but it's so much that I tend to result in simple questions because I don't want to go on tangents.

You still haven't explained why this idea of submission isn't the identity of people. Are you not aware that Islam could have four major definitions? The definition of the word in itself befits this religion. Not sure why you are arguing otherwise.

 

[Link]

Worship of God (sincerely) is also a full description of the religion.
Giving Allah's (swt) Welayah it's proper due it also a full description of the religion.
Holding on to human nature is also a full description of the religion.
Tawhid is also a full desciption.
Believing in Allah (swt) is full description (whoever believes in Allah, Allah will guide his heart).
Going straight.
Fleeing to God.
Taking refuge in God.
Striving for God.
Making God your goal.

All these are described as the religion as well.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

They are defensive explanations. The Quran comes from the viewpoint it understands doubts of people. This is saying, yes you have to obey Mohammad (s), but that's not the goal of Mohammad (s) to just power himself over you, it's actually to get you to submit to God.

For example "No reward do I ask for it", is all under this theme. That disbelievers say, Mohammad (s) is power hungry, say no wealth, still, he get's reputation, get's to control people, etc....

So Quran is saying I understand your doubts, but at the end, I establish such authority because submission to me through the guidance I appoint is the way.

The religion is submission is addressing their doubts about Mohammad (s) and the reward he is accused of seeking. It's saying, this is the way to submit to God, so it might me selfish from viewpoint he is false, but it's the way towards God if he is true.

So for example 25:57 is saying all that he is accused of power, obedience to him, control, is but a way towards God.

42:23 is saying what is all that but just submitting to God while just loving and recognizing the chosen kin for who they are since they are the means to God and submitting to him.

Mohammad (s) directly submits to God but others have to submit to God through him. This may cause a lot of doubts, why can't God talk directly to us is an example of such a doubt raised in Quran. Why not Angels manifested to us in real life instead?

All these were doubts, so submission, is discussed in this context.

Thanks for the reply. I would say the issue of Hadith is a topic that is better to have a separate thread to discuss more details.
I might make a thread specifically for that, and let you know if you like to participate.

So, I have another question.

According to Quran, after Moses Allah sent 12 prophets or leaders:

"And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, “I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakāh and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allah a goodly loan, I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way.” } [Qur’an, Surah 5:12]

In Islamic view, Moses had already had the Torah with Laws of God. So, the Revelations was complete. What was the need for these twelve leaders?
Why do you believe Allah did not need to give twelve leaders to Muslims?
I mean why the twelve leaders were needed for Jews, but not for Muslims?
Mind you Allah also had asked Apostles to help God as described in the Quran, and they said we submit. So, it seems Allah in previous Revelation always had 12 leaders, but majority of Muslims do not believe this was the case for Islam.

 

[Come2thelight]

@Link Bro, none of those can be classified as a person's identity to the world. This is the description based on all the individuals that come to God.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Witness the hate between Sunni and Shia as seen today with Yemen, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iran and Syria.

Witness the hate between Republicans and Democrats..

You confuse religion with politics.
US is the richest nation in the world.
Take away the wealth, and what would you be left with?
The west has been practicing "divide and rule" for centuries.
It won't last for ever.

Being victorious in wars is a reward from G-d, but I think yu'll find that the west is slipping .. as the generations come and go they become complacent .. they even turn their backs on G-d.

 

[Link]

@Link Bro, none of those can be classified as a person's identity to the world. This is the description based on all the individuals that come to God.

We'll agree to disagree.

 

[Come2thelight]

My pleasure and I can't promise that I'll join, but send do let me know and we will see what happens

In Islamic view, Moses had already had the Torah with Laws of God. So, the Revelations was complete. What was the need for these twelve leaders?

Each leader was the head of the 12 tribes. This would be easier to manage.

Why do you believe Allah did not need to give twelve leaders to Muslims?

What do you mean by 12 leaders?

I mean why the twelve leaders were needed for Jews, but not for Muslims?

Because Islam is a multicultural way of life, while in their case back then, it was because of the tribes.

Mind you Allah also had asked Apostles to help God as described in the Quran, and they said we submit. So, it seems Allah in previous Revelation always had 12 leaders, but majority of Muslims do not believe this was the case for Islam.

There is no mention that they were 12 in number in the Quran. Why are to think that Jesus was only limited to 12 disciples?

 

[oldbadger]

Being victorious in wars is a reward from G-d, but I think yu'll find that the west is slipping .. as the generations come and go they become complacent .. they even turn their backs on G-d.

Wars?
Wars are a disgrace.
Peace is a reward to those who seek it, and wars are the result of greed, hatred and domination .... Nothing Godly about them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

My pleasure and I can't promise that I'll join, but send do let me know and we will see what happens




Each leader was the head of the 12 tribes. This would be easier to manage.




What do you mean by 12 leaders?




Because Islam is a multicultural way of life, while in their case back then, it was because of the tribes.



There is no mention that they were 12 in number in the Quran. Why are to think that Jesus was only limited to 12 disciples?

How do you know the Number of Apostles were not 12 when Christians traditions all agree and say, there were 12?
Is there a Hadith that tells us, the apostles were more than 12?


I mean, you are saying that Quran and Hadith are complementery.
So, Now if one wants to know why Allah sent 12 leaders to Jews, one should be able to know that from Hadith and Quran. Right?
So, does Quran and Hadith tell us that the reason that Allah gave them 12 leaders was because there were 12 Tribes so, it was easier to manage them?


Islam is multicultural now, but at the time of Prophet, there were several Arabic Tribes, so, by your logic, Allah must have give them leaders too, in the same way that He gave leaded to Jews to manage them after passing of Muhammad.
Allah had asked apostles to help Jesus, but how come He did not ask anyone else to help with Muhammad in the same way as He did before in case of other Messengers?

Even if you think the numbers could be more or less. But still, the Question remains, why Allah did not give some leaders to Muslims in addition to Muhammad?

 

[Come2thelight]

How do you know the Number of Apostles were not 12 when Christians traditions all agree and say, there were 12?

Why are we considering the Bible as a reliable source of information?

Is there a Hadith that tells us, the apostles were more than 12?

No, it doesn't, but I guess it would make more sense that we define the word disciple. For me, a disciple is a student of a teacher or a follower of an individual. Do you have a different definition?

So, does Quran and Hadith tell us that the reason that Allah gave them 12 leaders was because there were 12 Tribes so, it was easier to manage them?

Remember when Moses prayed for water for his people and We said to him, ‘Strike the rock with your staff.’ Twelve springs gushed out, and each group knew its drinking place. ‘Eat and drink the sustenance God has provided and do not cause corruption in the land.’ 2:60

They were 12 groups and no it doesn't blatantly say it would be easier to manage, rather this is quite logical.

Islam is multicultural now, but at the time of Prophet, there were several Arabic Tribes, so, by your logic, Allah must have give them leaders too, in the same way that He gave leaded to Jews to manage them after passing of Muhammad.

The chief of each tribe was already the leader and was already responsible for the tribe. When a chief accepted Islam, the whole tribe would follow. So this method of assigning leadership isn't distributed this way in Islam.

Allah had asked apostles to help Jesus, bit how come He did not ask anyone else to help with Muhammad in the same way as He did before in case of other Messengers?

Muhammad had a lot of companions. A lot more than Jesus had during his life.

 

[Link]

Salam @InvestigateTruth

The number twelve is easier to see with respect to Mohammad's (s) successors in Quran only after accepting Ulil-Amr (4:59) and Al-Qurba (42:23) to be about Ahlulbayt of Mohammad (s).

We should go to what is clearer and more manifest. However, I just want to note that later on the covenant is explained to be about sending Messengers, not about tribal leaders.

Also, the hadiths (Sunni and Shiite) have Rasool (s) alluding to Twelve Captains of Bani-Israel after Musa (a) with respect to how many successors he has.

Also, Ibn Abbas says regarding the Captains per Sunni sources, they became Prophets.


Here let me quote Al-Suyuti Daral Manthur:



وأخرج الطستي عن ابن عباس. أن نافع بن الأزرق قال له: أخبرني عن قوله عز وجل { اثني عشر نقيباً }. قال: اثني عشر وزيراً وصاروا أنبياء بعد ذلك.

وأخرج ابن أبي حاتم عن أبي هريرة قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم " لو صدقني وآمن بي واتبعني عشرة من اليهود لأسلم كل يهودي " كان قال كعب اثني عشر، وتصديق ذلك في المائدة { وبعثنا منهم اثني عشر نقيباً }.

وأخرج أحمد والحاكم " عن ابن مسعود. أنه سئل كم يملك هذه الأمة من خليفة؟ فقال: سألنا عنها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: " اثنا عشر كعدة بني إسرائيل "



Ibn Abbas was asked by Nafa' son of Alzraq, inform me about God's words "Twelve Captains", they were twelve vicegerents (same word used for Haroun wazir) and they became Prophets after that.

Abu Huraira said Rasool (s) said "If they verified and believed in and followed ten from the Jews the Jews would have all submitted", it was said by Kaab "Twelve" (rather then ten) and the verification of that is in Maeeda "and he rose from them Twelve Captains"

Abu Masud was asked how many will have authority/rule from the successors/rulers/caliphs?, he said we asked Rasool (s) so he said "Twelve like the number for the children of Israel".



As for the verse that shows again, the covenant was respect to Messengers and not tribal leaders


لَقَدْ أَخَذْنَا مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ رُسُلًا ۖ كُلَّمَا جَاءَهُمْ رَسُولٌ بِمَا لَا تَهْوَىٰ أَنْفُسُهُمْ فَرِيقًا كَذَّبُوا وَفَرِيقًا يَقْتُلُونَ | Certainly We took a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We sent apostles to them. Whenever an apostle brought them that which was not to their liking, they would deny a part of them, and a part they would slay. | Al-Maaida : 70


The twelve Tribes is actually a myth, and Muslims only accept it to not see the truth about successors of Mohammad (s) in Quran. The Quran says "offspring of those who we carried with Nuh" regarding bani-Israel, and so it's metaphorical.

Asbat is about branches of Musa (a) in the other verses, which refers to his successors as ways after him.

 

[Link]

The twelve successors of Musa (a) in Quran are:

1. Haroun
2. Samuel
3. Talut
4. Dawood
5. Sulaiman
6. Elyas
7. Alyasa
8. Dul-Kifl
9. Imran
10. Zakariya
11. Yahya
12. Isa

The covenant pertained to these Twelve holy souls who were the Captains to sail the ship of salvation by the name of God! They are the twelve branches (asbat) as ways (umma can be translated as way/course) that God said were a way (collectively) who guided by truth from another perspective.

 

[Link]

This is just showing how drastically different the Quran appears to people. I never understood people who just make stories of the past into just stories of the past. At the end, one interpretation is light, the other darkness. Day and night.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why are we considering the Bible as a reliable source of information?

According to the Quran, the ultimate purpose of God is to determine who will end up in Heaven and who will end up in Hell.
Allah determines that, by knowing who is following God's commands and who is not following His commands.
So, then Allah sends down Holy Books to each Ummah, so, by the Book, the people know what they are forbidden and what they are commanded to do.
Correct?
If the Gospel of Jesus was not reliable and somehow became corrupted or was never written properly, how could the Christians know what was forbidden and what was commanded? I am talking about before revelation of the Quran. Those who lived before the Quran, according to you did not have a proper and reliable source of guidance, so, my question is, then how could God determine for them, who would go to hell and who would go to Heaven?

No, it doesn't, but I guess it would make more sense that we define the word disciple. For me, a disciple is a student of a teacher or a follower of an individual. Do you have a different definition?

I am just referring to Quran:

"And when I inspired the apostles to believe in Me and in My messenger, they said, ‘We believe. Bear witness that we are submitters.’ 5:111

So, the term used here for apostles is Hawwarioun in the Quran. It is the same term that the Christians use specifically referring to the 12 apostles of Jesus.
So, according to this verse, God specifically had a known people as helpers. But how could in Islam Allah was not specific as who are the truly inspired helpers or companions?

In verse 3:7, it refers to a specific group of people who are called well-grounded in knowledge (راسخون في العلم). Can you name some who are such?

Remember when Moses prayed for water for his people and We said to him, ‘Strike the rock with your staff.’ Twelve springs gushed out, and each group knew its drinking place. ‘Eat and drink the sustenance God has provided and do not cause corruption in the land.’ 2:60

They were 12 groups and no it doesn't blatantly say it would be easier to manage, rather this is quite logical.

In the verse 2:60, it says Moses prayed for His Tribe (لقومه). Within this Tribe, there were groups.

The chief of each tribe was already the leader and was already responsible for the tribe. When a chief accepted Islam, the whole tribe would follow. So this method of assigning leadership isn't distributed this way in Islam.




Muhammad had a lot of companions. A lot more than Jesus had during his life.

What I am saying is, the leaders in previous Revelations were specifically chosen by God, and were inspired. For example the Leaders for Jews were Nabi or Prophets so, they were inspired by God. They were not just ordinary men. Likewise for Christians, the apostles were inspired by God, as Quran says, God inspired them. But according to majority of Muslims, no such leaders, helpers appeared with or after Muhammad. Don't you see this is a major difference?

 

[Link]

Salam

Simon Peter (a) is more like the four Safeers of Imam Mahdi (a). Simon (a) succeeded Isa (a) but is no where to be compared to the chosen ones per verses in Gospels themselves, saying, for disciples not to compare themselves to the chosen ones. He is not chosen by God though and disciples are not chosen by God, they are volatile and can go astray. The proof of that is the tone of God to them:

قَالَ اللَّهُ إِنِّي مُنَزِّلُهَا عَلَيْكُمْ ۖ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بَعْدُ مِنْكُمْ فَإِنِّي أُعَذِّبُهُ عَذَابًا لَا أُعَذِّبُهُ أَحَدًا مِنَ الْعَالَمِينَ | Allah said, ‘I will indeed send it down to you. But should any of you disbelieve after this, I will indeed punish him with a punishment such as I do not punish anyone in all creation.’ | Al-Maaida : 115



This means they were given extra signs and tasted heaven, but God is warning them not to disbelieve.

You got to compare right things with right things.

And I agree we don't know their number per Quran.

The Church was supposed to be transitional of Isa (a) outward leadership to Mohammad's (s) but they went astray when they were not put to check.

Same way "narrators of our ahadith", that are to be proofs of Imam Mahdi (a), can go astray, if we don't put them to check.

Imam Mahdi (a) is going to work with narrators of ahadith of Ahlulbayt (a) but that is not to guarantee scholars are all guided.

But we have to look towards them and inshallah, if we are sincere, can sort out the discrepancy among them.

Simon (a) was not meant to be same position as Prophets (A) though. He meant to semi lead, but Elyas (a) was the Guide during that time between Isa (a) and Mohammad (s).

 

[muhammad_isa]

Wars?
Wars are a disgrace.
Peace is a reward to those who seek it, and wars are the result of greed, hatred and domination .... Nothing Godly about them.

I was specifically referring to WWII.

In China, nationalist and communist forces resumed the civil war in June 1946. Communist forces were victorious and established the People's Republic of China on the mainland, while nationalist forces retreated to Taiwan in 1949. In the Middle East, the Arab rejection of the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine and the creation of Israel marked the escalation of the Arab–Israeli conflict. While European powers attempted to retain some or all of their colonial empires, their losses of prestige and resources during the war rendered this unsuccessful, leading to decolonisation.
World War II - Wikipedia

..as we all know, USSR disintegrated but China has now become the 2nd. wealthiest nation.
I believe that the west was granted victory in WWII, but things have changed a lot since then.
People get used to being privileged .. it's human nature. However, it is often our own pride that causes our downfall.
The world belongs to G-d, and He gives sovereignty to whomsoever He wills.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The twelve successors of Musa (a) in Quran are:

1. Haroun
2. Samuel
3. Talut
4. Dawood
5. Sulaiman
6. Elyas
7. Alyasa
8. Dul-Kifl
9. Imran
10. Zakariya
11. Yahya
12. Isa

The covenant pertained to these Twelve holy souls who were the Captains to sail the ship of salvation by the name of God! They are the twelve branches (asbat) as ways (umma can be translated as way/course) that God said were a way (collectively) who guided by truth from another perspective.

@Come2thelight,

Link has provided the list of the Twelve.

These leaders did not live at the same time. Usually When a leader died Allah raised another leader. So, I mean it is not like 12 leaders were sent at the same time to 12 tribes.


Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prohet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number. ”The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship." [Volume 4, Book 56, Number 661: (Sahih Bukhari)]


Also according to this Hadith, Muslims were to obey a Caliph who will be a given pledge of allegiance First!

So, who is this first Caliph? Did Allah give any hints who this Person is?

But if the intention was as your explanation, for example if a leader was sent to a tribe, the other 11 tribes were left without a leader.
So, how could that be the logical reason behind number 12?


And according to this Hadith, the number of Caliphs are twelve:

The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs, all of them from Quraysh." Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) said: "This matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs." He then whispered a sentence

Sahih Muslim