My thoughts about why people say that Jesus is not God

[Soapy]

Also . . .

Jewish views on Jesus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Jewish theology​

Oneness and indivisibility of God​

See also: God in Judaism, Godhead in Judaism, Shema Yisrael, and ****uf
In Judaism, the idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical — it is even considered by some polytheistic.[8] According to Judaic beliefs, the Torah rules out a trinitarian God in Deuteronomy (6:4): "Hear Israel, the LORD is our God, the LORD is one."

Judaism teaches that it is heretical for any man to claim to be God, part of God, or the literal son of God. The Jerusalem Talmud states explicitly: "if a man claims to be God, he is a liar."[9]

Paul Johnson, in his book A History of the Jews, describes the schism between Jews and Christians caused by a divergence from this principle:

Note foolish anal editing of the word ****uf by Wiki.

It is surprising that anyone calling themselves ‘Jew’ or ‘Christian’ should ever be making any kind of claim of a multiplicity in or of God.

Only a pagan view could make such a claim and we already know that TRUE Christianity is not pagan. We can therefore acknowledge that FALSE Christianity is… well, FALSE DOCTRINE.

In other words, there are TRUE Christians and there are FALSE Christians … which is exactly what Jesus Christ said would happen.

But Jesus also said that it would be a problem to tell the true Christians (The Wheat) from the false Christians (The Tares) until both show their fruits … that we would know them by their fruits… their doings, their minds and their acts - only God would know them by their heart which is a fail safe (Man can misjudge the minds and acts!).

So, we have pagan (false) Christians who are UNIVERSAL, teaching that Almighty God:YHWH - the Father, is THREE PERSONS…… !!! These false Christians are also what Jesus describes the mass of ‘believers’ as ‘travelling the broad and straight road’. And that, ‘it is the few who travel the tortuous rugged and winding road to peace and sanctuary’ (paraphrased).

But what do you see… the MASSES do not pay heed to the warning. In fact, they revel in the fact that their false teaching has captivated THE MASSES of believers…..

Can anyone show any greater proof of “God will send them a powerful spirit such that they will deliver the lie!”???:

• “For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)

 

[Soapy]

This is what triggered my thread about the teachings of the Trinitarian churches:

I didn't see anyone objecting to that. That's why I started the thread about the teachings of the Trinitarian churches.

Where were you looking?

At trinity based churches or forums or posts?
Why would a believer of such a fallacy by objecting to what they are told to believe.

But I’m glad that you saw enough to ask the questions that got you here - now you can learn the truth.

 

[Niatero]

You need to look at the Trinity triangle more carefully. It clearly says that the Father IS the Son.

You are contradicting the teachings of all the Trinitarian churches. They all say that the Father is NOT the son.

 

[Niatero]

Niatero, I’m not sure about your thought process as one moment you post FOR trinity, and the next you post AGAINST trinity.

I"m not sure what the question is. If the question is whether or not I agree with the teachings of Trinitarian churches about the Trinity, the answer is that I can agree with them if some of the words don't mean what everyone thinks they mean. I'm thinking now that it probably won't do anything for anyone to say that. If If the question is whether or not I agree with what people say in online discussions when they are defending Trinity beliefs, the answer is no.

 

[Niatero]

Where were you looking?

At trinity based churches or forums or posts?
Why would a believer of such a fallacy by objecting to what they are told to believe.

But I’m glad that you saw enough to ask the questions that got you here - now you can learn the truth.

Thank you. You might be smarter than I thought you were.

I'm not thinking that you'll understand this, but it might help move us closer to an understanding between us. Saying "Jesus is God." might mean different things to different people. I disagree with what I think most people mean by it, but I see a possible meaning in it that I agree with. That's why I can't say that I disagree with it without knowing what a person means by it.

(later) It's more complicated than that. If a person says "Jesus is God," I won't say that I disagree with that without knowing what they mean by it, but I can and do say that I disagree with saying it, because it creates confusion, misunderstanding and divisions, and it isn't even part of the official teachings of Trinitarian churches, so why say it?

(later) I'm reconsidering. I see a possible meaning in "Jesus is God" that I agree with, but I don't think that anyone who argues and debates about it, insisting that it's true, means it that way, so I might as well just say that I disagree with it. Thanks. I couldn't have done it without you.

 

[jimb]

You are contradicting the teachings of all the Trinitarian churches. They all say that the Father is NOT the son.

You wrote "You need to look at the Trinity triangle more carefully. It clearly says that the Father IS NOT the Son" and I wrote "You need to look at the Trinity triangle more carefully. It clearly says that the Father IS the Son."

a) Why are you changing the subject?
b) Jesus said, "The Father and I are one” John 10:30 and Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me" John 14:9-11a

If you and others contradict what the Bible clearly says, guess which I believe!

 

[Niatero]

You wrote "You need to look at the Trinity triangle more carefully. It clearly says that the Father IS NOT the Son" and I wrote "You need to look at the Trinity triangle more carefully. It clearly says that the Father IS the Son."

a) Why are you changing the subject?
b) Jesus said, "The Father and I are one” John 10:30 and Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me" John 14:9-11a

If you and others contradict what the Bible clearly says, guess which I believe!

Okay, so it doesn't matter to you if you are contradicting the teachings of all the Trinitarian churches?

 

[jimb]

Thank you. You might be smarter than I thought you were.

I'm not thinking that you'll understand this, but it might help move us closer to an understanding between us. Saying "Jesus is God." might mean different things to different people. I disagree with what I think most people mean by it, but I see a possible meaning in it that I agree with. That's why I can't say that I disagree with it without knowing what a person means by it.

(later) It's more complicated than that. If a person says "Jesus is God," I won't say that I disagree with that without knowing what they mean by it, but I can and do say that I disagree with saying it, because it creates confusion, misunderstanding and divisions, and it isn't even part of the official teachings of Trinitarian churches, so why say it?

(later) I'm reconsidering. I see a possible meaning in "Jesus is God" that I agree with, but I don't think that anyone who argues and debates about it, insisting that it's true, means it that way, so I might as well just say that I disagree with it. Thanks. I couldn't have done it without you.

Because it is true!

Here are some other verses that explain the same principle...

1 Corinthians 12:14-16, "Indeed, the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot would say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear would say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body."

 

[Niatero]

Because it is true!

Here are some other verses that explain the same principle...

1 Corinthians 12:14-16, "Indeed, the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot would say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear would say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body."

Okay I think that answers my question. You have your own beliefs that you are calling “the Trinity” even though they contradict the official teachings of Trinitarian churches. That might be true of most or all of what everyone is doing here when they’re promoting Trinity beliefs: promoting their own beliefs contrary to what Trinitarian churches teach, and calling them “the Trinity.”

(later) Sorry for the unfriendliness in some of my posts.

 

[Niatero]

Where were you looking?

At trinity based churches or forums or posts?
Why would a believer of such a fallacy by objecting to what they are told to believe.

But I’m glad that you saw enough to ask the questions that got you here - now you can learn the truth.

All this time I mistakenly thought that the Trinity people were debating about was the Trinity of the mainstream churches.

 

[jimb]

Okay I think that answers my question. You have your own beliefs that you are calling “the Trinity” even though they contradict the official teachings of Trinitarian churches. That might be true of most or all of what everyone is doing here when they’re promoting Trinity beliefs: promoting their own beliefs contrary to what Trinitarian churches teach, and calling them “the Trinity.”

(later) Sorry for the unfriendliness in some of my posts.

I don't subscribe to the "official teachings of Trinitarian churches". The Bible has all the information that I need.

BTW, I don't think that you have been unfriendly. Debates sometimes become conflicts, and we're all guilty of being too harsh at times. Some are aware of it, others are not.

 

[InChrist]

NOTE: To avoid misunderstandings, I think I should say that I am not a Christian and I don't believe in any Christian doctrines about salvation and the Triniity.

I'm posting this in a debate forum not because I want to debate about it, but because I don't want to try to stop people from debating about it if they want to.

(edited) Please ignore everything below the line. I was making it too complicated. I'm thinking that when people say that Jesus is not God, what they mean is that Jesus and God are not the same person, which maybe everybody already knows. (end edit)

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Sometimes when the Bible says "God," it means the Father and sometimes it means Jesus. Maybe also sometimes it means the Holy Spirit and sometimes it means all three of them together, but that doesn't matter for my purpose here. I'm thinking that most often it means the Father, or at least people think it does., One way or another, sometimes people think that "God" can only mean the Father, so when you say that Jesus is God, they think that you're saying that Jesus is the Father. That's why they think it's wrong to say that Jesus is God. I also disagree with saying that Jesus is God, because of the confusion and controversy that it creates, without any good reason for substituting those words in the place of the words of the Bible.

(later) I take that back. Some of the reasons for saying that Jesus is God don't look that bad to me, but I still say that it isn't necessary, that it doesn't do any good to say it in those words, all it does is create a lot of confusion, divide Christians from each other and repel other people away from learning about Jesus and what He wants for us.

(later) Actually, I don't disagree with saying that Jesus is God, between people who agree to say it that way. What I disagree with is arguing and debating about it, and insisting that people are wrong when they say Jesus is not God, because all they are really saying is that the Son is not the Father, just saying "Jesus" instead of "the Son" and "God" instead of "the Father." Wouldn't you agree that's an easy mistake to make?

I believe Jesus is God, but the Son is not the Father.

 

[jimb]

The graphic shows that the Son is not the Father, but it also shows that both the Son and the Father are God (as is the Holy Spirit). It takes true understanding to resolve this (seeming) dilemma. However, if a person reads the Bible and asks God for understanding, s/he will receive the explanation.

 

[Niatero]

The graphic shows that the Son is not the Father, but it also shows that both the Son and the Father are God (as is the Holy Spirit). It takes true understanding to resolve this (seeming) dilemma. However, if a person reads the Bible and asks God for understanding, s/he will receive the explanation.

It’s resolved for me. That diagram can be a different way of saying what the Bible says if the word “is” has two different meanings, and the word “God” doesn’t mean what people think it means.

 

[InChrist]

The graphic shows that the Son is not the Father, but it also shows that both the Son and the Father are God (as is the Holy Spirit). It takes true understanding to resolve this (seeming) dilemma. However, if a person reads the Bible and asks God for understanding, s/he will receive the explanation.

I definitely did not understand until I was saved, born again to new life in Christ. Then what I previously thought was nonsense became clear; Father, Son and Holy Spirit- One God / three eternal Persons.

 

[Niatero]

I'll remind people that I am not a Christian and that I disagree with Christian beliefs about salvation and the Trinity. I'm not sure that anyone is interested in what I think, but maybe some are, so I'll say some things about it. I think that what Jesus wants people to know most of all is that the best way to live our lives is to recognize and accept Him as a person to serve and obey above all others, which includes conscious efforts to learn to live the way He says to live. I think that "Jesus is God" and the statements in Trinity doctrines agree with the Bible or not, according to what a person means by "God," "is," "esssence," "consubstantial," "person," and "distinct," but that's purely hypothetical. I don't see any reason to think that anyone on any side of the debates is actually agreeing with what the Bible says what God says in the Bible or even really trying to, and even if they are, they are might be disobeying Jesus acting contrary to the words of Jesus, or be poorly informed about His purposes and prescriptions.

(I don't have much hope that anyone will ask about my reasons, but I would like it if somebody would.

 

[Spice]

I'll remind people that I am not a Christian and that I disagree with Christian beliefs about salvation and the Trinity. I'm not sure that anyone is interested in what I think, but maybe some are, so I'll say some things about it. I think that what Jesus wants people to know most of all is that the best way to live our lives is to recognize and accept Him as a person to serve and obey above all others, which includes conscious efforts to learn to live the way He says to live. I think that "Jesus is God" and the statements in Trinity doctrines agree with the Bible or not, according to what a person means by "God," "is," "esssence," "consubstantial," "person," and "distinct," but that's purely hypothetical. I don't see any reason to think that anyone on any side of the debates is actually agreeing with what the Bible says, and even if they are, they are disobeying Jesus.

I don't think Jesus was meant to be "obeyed", but rather to be "believed." He was wise and good and worthy of emulation and adoration -- but not worship. He said himself he could do nothing without the Father, and those to come would do greater things than he.

 

[Soapy]

I"m not sure what the question is. If the question is whether or not I agree with the teachings of Trinitarian churches about the Trinity, the answer is that I can agree with them if some of the words don't mean what everyone thinks they mean. I'm thinking now that it probably won't do anything for anyone to say that. If If the question is whether or not I agree with what people say in online discussions when they are defending Trinity beliefs, the answer is no.

So you’re a tight rope Walker?
Thus is what Jesus preached against:

• “Be Hot, or be Cold. But to be both Hot and Cold (Tepid) is disgusting… I spit you out!!”

 

[jimb]

It’s resolved for me. That diagram can be a different way of saying what the Bible says if the word “is” has two different meanings, and the word “God” doesn’t mean what people think it means.

Okay, it's resolved for you. That in itself means nothing. "God" means "God" and "is" means "is"!

 

[Soapy]

I definitely did not understand until I was saved, born again to new life in Christ. Then what I previously thought was nonsense became clear; Father, Son and Holy Spirit- One God / three eternal Persons.

So the delusion got to you… how sad!! Better you had stayed innocent (or is it, ignorant) rather than adopt the fallacy.