nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg admits and boasts about nato provoking Putin to invade

[ImmortalFlame]

It appears that it is up to the neocons in Washington when to make peace.

No, right now it is up to Russia. They invaded and are now refusing peace negotiations. The power to end this war unilaterally lies with Russia. It alone has the power to end this war. All Ukraine and its allies can do is continue to defend themselves.

Who knows, they might be waiting until every last available fighter in Ukraine is dead. When is Russia and Washington going to come to their senses?

And do what, exactly? What is it that you want them to do?

I cannot stress this enough. Over and over again you insist that they are doing the wrong thing while staunchly refusing to explain, in clear language, what it is that they SHOULD be doing in this scenario.

So tell us. What SHOULD they do?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Dude, you have to look at the bigger picture. Nuclear-armed Russia can bring about a nuclear holocaust which will render all this talk of basic sovereignty and defensive alliances as nonsensical. What's the use of sovereignty when you are living in a radioactive cesspool !

So, you believe countries with nuclear arms can threaten the world with nuclear war and thus do and get away with whatever they want? If America had threatened Russia with nukes, that means America can invade whoever they want and Russia has no recourse?

Emotivity and reactivity will not get anywhere. We need to look at the bigger picture dispassionately and act accordingly so that tiny sparks will not lead to mass annihilations.

I agree, which is why preventing Russian military expansion is good and I support Ukraine. I do not want a country with nuclear weapons that is known for invading its neighbouring states to have more influence, much less to expand westward and threaten even more countries with invasion. Apparently, you don't think that's so bad.

 

[lukethethird]

No, right now it is up to Russia. They invaded and are now refusing peace negotiations. The power to end this was unilaterally lies with Russia. It alone has the power to end this war. All Ukraine and its allies can do is continue to defend themselves.


And do what, exactly? What is it that you want them to do?

I cannot stress this enough. Over and over again you insist that they are doing the wrong thing while staunchly refusing to explain, in clear language, what it is that they SHOULD be doing in this scenario.

So tell us. What SHOULD they do?

Right now Russia is bogged down in a proxy war with the US. The US has the upper hand, it will end when the neocons in Washington say so.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Right now Russia is bogged down in a proxy war with the US.

Once again, you revert back to propaganda.

Right now, Russia is invading Ukraine. It is not a proxy war. Russia is invading a country. It can choose to leave that country whenever it wants.

The US has the upper hand, it will end when the neocons in Washington say so.

Just a bald-faced lie with no acknowledgement of reality.

Russia can leave Ukraine. It can do that. It is within its power. They are not being kept there by magic. There are no US troops behind them with guns to their head. Russia's military leaders haven't had their children kidnapped by the pentagon.

They. Can. Just. Leave.

 

[lukethethird]

Once again, you revert back to propaganda.

Right now, Russia is invading Ukraine. It is not a proxy war. Russia is invading a country. It can choose to leave that country whenever it wants.


Just a bald-faced lie with no acknowledgement of reality.

Russia can leave Ukraine. It can do that. It is within its power. They are not being kept there by magic. There are no US troops behind them with guns to their head. Russia's military leaders haven't had their children kidnapped by the pentagon.

They. Can. Just. Leave.

Maybe that's how it works on Mars, I don't know.

 

[Glaurung]

Dude, you have to look at the bigger picture. Nuclear-armed Russia can bring about a nuclear holocaust which will render all this talk of basic sovereignty and defensive alliances as nonsensical. What's the use of sovereignty when you are living in a radioactive cesspool !

Appeasing Russia increases the chance of a nuclear war down the road. Say the west withdraws all support from Ukraine. Russia annexes the Donbas and installs a puppet government in Kiev. Great, you've avoided nuclear war for ten years. Ten years later, knowing it can flash its nukes to get what it wants, Moscow demands the Baltic states withdraw from NATO otherwise the nukes will fly. Should NATO comply? What if Putin threatens Poland and Moldova? Russia has nukes so leave the Moldovans and the Poles to Russian control?

At what point does the world stand up to Russia? At what point does the world stand up to nuclear blackmail? Do authoritarian regimes with nukes get an infinite pass because they have nukes. That would be a more dangerous state of affairs in my opinion. Think about what you're incentivizing here.

 

[Augustus]

Dude, you have to look at the bigger picture. Nuclear-armed Russia can bring about a nuclear holocaust which will render all this talk of basic sovereignty and defensive alliances as nonsensical. What's the use of sovereignty when you are living in a radioactive cesspool !

Emotivity and reactivity will not get anywhere. We need to look at the bigger picture dispassionately and act accordingly so that tiny sparks will not lead to mass annihilations.

“We have nukes, we want part of Ukraine”
Ok take it
“We have nukes, we want all of Ukraine”
Ok take it
“We have nukes, we want part of Lithuania”
Ok take it
Etc.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Maybe that's how it works on Mars, I don't know.

Are you serious?

You think a country invading another country can't just... STOP invading? They can't just... go back across their own border?

Please tell me, what is stopping them from doing that, exactly? Do you think the only way into Ukraine is by slide?

"And here we see the famous 'Donbas slide', a one-way slide that stretches the entire border between Russia and Ukraine, making exit by Russian troops virtually impossible - although it makes entry very quick, and fun!"

 

[Augustus]

Russia can leave Ukraine. It can do that. It is within its power. They are not being kept there by magic. There are no US troops behind them with guns to their head. Russia's military leaders haven't had their children kidnapped by the pentagon.

When the Russians created an army of peace to defend against the NATO missiles that are amassed at the border, the devious neocons deployed a large vacuum cleaner that deviously sucked the peacenik Russian army towards Kyiv.

That’s why Russia has been targeting the power grid, so they can reduce the suction enough to leave.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

When the Russians created an army of peace to defend against the NATO missiles that are amassed at the border, the devious neocons deployed a large vacuum cleaner that deviously sucked the peacenik Russian army towards Kyiv.

That’s why Russia has been targeting the power grid, so they can reduce the suction enough to leave.

It was perhaps the most rapid, and entertaining, invasion in history. On the plus side, Russia's borders are now lovely and free of dust.

 

[ajay0]

“We have nukes, we want part of Ukraine”
Ok take it
“We have nukes, we want all of Ukraine”
Ok take it
“We have nukes, we want part of Lithuania”
Ok take it
Etc.

Russia never demanded Ukraine, only that neighboring countries like Ukraine and Georgia should be exempt from NATO membership considering the history of conflict Russia has with U.S-NATO.

It was after proposals of membership backed by the US came up that Russia went with the invasion The US threatened USSR with a nuclear war if their wmd was not taken out of Cuba, and talks led to Russians taking wmd out of Cuba, and US similarly doing it with wmd in Turkey.

NATO should keep away from neighboring countries of Russia, and the UN security council can create a committee of neutral nations that can look after the security of neighboring countries.

In this way, all emotional volatility on the subject can come to an end, without any fears of sparks leading to a nuclear holocaust .

Talk of freedom and sovereignty will amount to nothing with everyone dead in a nuclear holocaust, and survivors if any suffering from radioactivity based diseases.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Russia never demanded Ukraine,

It has been meddling with Ukraine and has JUST ANNEXED IT.

only that neighboring countries like Ukraine and Georgia should be exempt from NATO membership considering the history of conflict Russia has with U.S-NATO.

Suuuuure. Meanwhile, Russia's history of invading and annexing it's neighbours is completely irrelevant, apparently.

It was after proposals of membership backed by the US came up that Russia went with the invasion

Right. Because NATO would have prevented them from invading. That's why they did it.

The US threatened USSR with a nuclear war if their wmd was not taken out of Cuba, and talks led to Russians taking wmd out of Cuba, and US similarly doing it with wmd in Turkey.

I am sick and tired of pointing out the obvious differences between the current situation and the Cuban missile crisis. You know the differences, so stop pretending you don't.

NATO should keep away from neighboring countries of Russia, and the UN security council can create a committee of neutral nations that can look after the security of neighboring countries.

And if those countries WANT to join NATO because, I dunno, they're at threat of invasion?

Russia does not get to determine these things through threat of force. Stop capitulating to them.

In this way, all emotional volatility on the subject can come to an end, without any fears of sparks leading to a nuclear holocaust .

Except Russia gets its way, and probably would also not allow Ukraine to enter into any UN pact that would prevent Russia from annexing and meddling with them, which they have been trying to do for decades. You are delusional if you look at the situation and don't believe Russia have imperialist ambitions.

Talk of freedom and sovereignty will amount to nothing with everyone dead in a nuclear holocaust, and survivors if any suffering from radioactivity based diseases.

Once again, your argument is that nuclear powers can get away with whatever they want. They get to threaten and bully other countries, and they get to decide the terms under which sovereign countries on their border get to enter defensive military pacts to protect themselves from invasion.

This is disgusting. It's just pathetic, cowardly capitulation to authoritarian tyrants. Fortunately, the majority of people oppose selling out Ukraine's national security just because Putin threatens to use nukes every Tuesday. Most of us recognise that geopolitics is best when it is not conducted at the barrel of a gun held by a lunatic, and that giving people like that exactly what they want (and no, they do not want a "committee of neutral nations looking after the security of Ukraine") will always, ALWAYS result in them taking it and demanding more.

It's called appeasement. And it's exactly what Putin wants. Stop it.

 

[Estro Felino]

Appeasing Russia increases the chance of a nuclear war down the road. Say the west withdraws all support from Ukraine. Russia annexes the Donbas and installs a puppet government in Kiev. Great, you've avoided nuclear war for ten years. Ten years later, knowing it can flash its nukes to get what it wants, Moscow demands the Baltic states withdraw from NATO otherwise the nukes will fly. Should NATO comply? What if Putin threatens Poland and Moldova? Russia has nukes so leave the Moldovans and the Poles to Russian control?

At what point does the world stand up to Russia? At what point does the world stand up to nuclear blackmail? Do authoritarian regimes with nukes get an infinite pass because they have nukes. That would be a more dangerous state of affairs in my opinion. Think about what you're incentivizing here.

Impossible scenarios.

Ukraine will join the EU and the Ukrainian government will be pro-EU and there will be not the slightest chance to be a "Russian-led" government, because the EU headquarters are in Brussels.