nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg admits and boasts about nato provoking Putin to invade

[lukethethird]

Right.
NATO sucked Muscovy into a war with Ukraine by not admitting Ukraine into NATO for the past 14 years.

How devious.

"So, he [Putin] went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite.” Stoltenberg

I suppose you can't understand plain english either.

It appears that quoting Stoltenberg, the secretary general of nato makes me a Putin apologist.

It's OK though, I have come to expect this kind of rhetoric from those that can't handle the facts.

Cry me a river.

 

[Estro Felino]

"So, he [Putin] went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite.” Stoltenberg

I suppose you can't understand plain english either.

It appears that quoting Stoltenberg, the secretary general of nato makes me a Putin apologist.

It's OK though, I have come to expect this kind of rhetoric from those that can't handle the facts.

Cry me a river.

It often deals with people who think that the US and the NATO can do anything, whereas Russia cannot even do 1/5 of what the NATO has been doing.

We can because we are God. Russia is nothing, so it cannot.

 

[lukethethird]

It often deals with people who think that the US and the NATO can do anything, whereas Russia cannot even do 1/5 of what the NATO has been doing.

We can because we are God. Russia is nothing, so it cannot.

That is the sheer hypocrisy of it all. What Russia did has been routine for western imperialism, Nato bombs are dropped for humanitarian reasons if you listen to the rhetoric. It's quite incredible but not unexpected. Putin is a war criminal as are neocons in Washington DC, but criticizing Washington and or the corporate news media makes one a Putin apologist, again, rather expected.

 

[Estro Felino]

That is the sheer hypocrisy of it all. What Russia did has been routine for western imperialism, Nato bombs are dropped for humanitarian reasons if you listen to the rhetoric. It's quite incredible but not unexpected. Putin is a war criminal as are neocons in Washington DC, but criticizing Washington and or the corporate news media makes one a Putin apologist, again, rather expected.

The NATO destroyed Syria, Libya, and many other countries. With no reason.
So what the NATO did, especially during Obama's administration make Putin look like a saint, in comparison.

We must be impartial and unbiased, and my country is in the NATO

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Putin got played like a fiddle, Nato sucked Russia into a proxy war with the US, and Ukraine is paying the price because Ukraine is the battlefield. I don't expect you to understand, it doesn't follow the narrative that corporate media feeds you.

When you get repeatedly shown your own ***, you run right back to the same tired old well.

You don't have a single novel thought or political opinion that wasn't stamped, word for word, on a bumper sticker sold by the Grayzone.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That is the sheer hypocrisy of it all. What Russia did has been routine for western imperialism,

Irrelevant. You can criticise both.

Nato bombs are dropped for humanitarian reasons if you listen to the rhetoric.

Again, depends. A lot of those bombs were dropped on military and governmental targets that were enacting genocide on their own people. A subtle nuance you have yet to grasp, presumably because you think military alliances between nations are a grave injustice while nations genociding their citizens isn't worth remarking on.

It's quite incredible but not unexpected. Putin is a war criminal as are neocons in Washington DC, but criticizing Washington and or the corporate news media makes one a Putin apologist, again, rather expected.

No, not "criticising Washing and or the corporate news media". Explicitly engaging in Putin apologism and REPEATEDLY lying about world events to paint NATO in the wrong and downplay and or justify Russia's actions is what makes you a Putin apologist.

Do you want me to provide a list of your lies?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

"So, he [Putin] went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite.” Stoltenberg

I suppose you can't understand plain english either.

It appears that quoting Stoltenberg, the secretary general of nato makes me a Putin apologist.

It's OK though, I have come to expect this kind of rhetoric from those that can't handle the facts.

Cry me a river.

Once again:

Very Obvious Nazi: "I am not a Nazi, but I do happen to believe that Jewish people were over-represented in the banking sector in Weimar Germany. So, if you think about it, you can't really blame the German people for genociding them, and actually that was probably a Jewish plot anyway, and I think Germany has a right to expand into Europe due to their superior ancestral lineage, and the allied invasion of Germany was totally unjustified."

Normal Person: "Gee, you sure do sound like a Nazi."

Very Obvious Nazi: "Oh! So I'm a Nazi?! Well here's a quote from a significant Jewish figure who acknowledges that Jewish people WERE over-represented in the banking sector in Weimar Germany! So, since he has said the same thing I have, you must be calling HIM a Nazi, too! Checkmate, idiot!"

 

[lukethethird]

The NATO destroyed Syria, Libya, and many other countries. With no reason.
So what the NATO did, especially during Hussein Obama's administration make Putin look like a saint, in comparison.

We must be impartial and unbiased, and my country is in the NATO

I don't see a nickel's worth of difference between Putin and the neocons in Washington, but I am sure that Putin sits in awe of the western corporate media propaganda machine.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't see a nickel's worth of difference between Putin and the neocons in Washington, but I am sure that Putin sits in awe of the western corporate media propaganda machine.

I detest phoniness.
It disgusts me immensely.

Putin is not a phony. He does what he does, yet he doesn't expect people to consider him a saint.

The Neo-Cons did what they did and demand to be considered saints.
That's absolutely phony.


So, I prefer Putin's behavior, honestly.

 

[lukethethird]

I detest phoniness.
It disgusts me immensely.

Putin is not a phony. He does what he does, yet he doesn't expect people to consider him a saint.

The Neo-Cons and also Dems (including Hillary and Obama) did what they did and demand to be considered saints.
That's absolutely disgusting.


So, I prefer Putin's behavior, honestly.

That's not a deal breaker for me. Propaganda can make anyone or anything look saintly, even nato bombs, unless of course they are a government that sits on resources that western imperialists want, then the demonizing machine kicks in and the obedient citizens respond in kind.

 

[Augustus]

I am trying to play devil's advocate here, what world leader would tolerate their adversaries bringing missiles up to their border? Playing devil's advocate does not make me a Putin apologist for those of you who are intolerant of questions.

Are you aware that part of Russia borders multiple NATO countries, and so Russia has missiles far closer to NATO capitals than NATO missiles are to Moscow?

Kaliningrad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Estro Felino]

That's not a deal breaker for me. Propaganda can make anyone or anything look saintly, even nato bombs, unless of course they are a government that sits on resources that western imperialists want, then the demonizing machine kicks in and the obedient citizens respond in kind.

Please.... let's say how things are..let's play cards face up....please.
Those hidden élites overseas wanted to dethrone Putin...
but didn't know how to do it.

So they started to colonize Ukraine between 2012 and 2014 to provoke the Maidan coup. They wanted to install a proxy government hostile to Moscow and to the Russians.
And they succeeded. The merciless government of Poroshenko started to target Russian-speaking citizens, in Ukraine. Crimeans fortunately escaped this madness, by declaring their independence after a referendum.
The Odessa dissidents were murdered in that fire of 2014.

The Donbas people tried to resist through separatist groups, but the Kiev government was stronger and reacted violently against them.
The separatists tried to beg Moscow for military help.

Moscow refused. Saying that only diplomacy was the way: they used diplomacy through the two Minsk agreements.

The two Minsk agreements were not respected by Ukraine. Never.
We Europeans asked Ukrainians to respect the Minsk agreements, because unlike those despicable élites overseas, we want peace.

Putin gave Zelenskyy an ultimatum: either you respect the Minsk agreements, or we invade.
We sent Macron in February 2022 to convince Zelenskyy to implement the Minsk agreements, and Zelenskyy was persuaded.

But some person overseas probably convinced Zelenskyy not to respect the Minsk agreements.
So he took it back.

Zelenskyy refused to implement the Minsk agreements and Putin invaded as a reaction. After 7 years of diplomatic attempts.

So...I am sorry, I reiterate it: the horrific plans of those élites overseas make Putin look like a saint, in comparison.

What they did was diabolical, devilish, Satanic.

 

[lukethethird]

Are you aware that part of Russia borders multiple NATO countries, and so Russia has missiles far closer to NATO capitals than NATO missiles are to Moscow?

Regardless, Georgia and Ukraine were the red lines according to American and Russian diplomats, if it's fair to call them that.

 

[Flankerl]

"So, he [Putin] went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite.” Stoltenberg

I suppose you can't understand plain english either.

It appears that quoting Stoltenberg, the secretary general of nato makes me a Putin apologist.

It's OK though, I have come to expect this kind of rhetoric from those that can't handle the facts.

Cry me a river.

Prior to 2022 and the full Muscovite invasion of independent Ukraine after the partial invasion in 2014 the topic of NATO membership in countries like Finland or Sweden was dead.
Ukrainian membership was also not seen as something possible or really desirable from prominent NATO countries POV.
It was all dead. NATO itself was questioned by the likes of you.

And so NATO did nothing. Absolutely nothing.

And by doing nothing the Vatniks, Orcs and Tankies reckon NATO forced Muscovy to fully invade Ukraine.
Because apparently doing nothing and not seeking new members close to Muscovy was somehow and attack on Muscovy.

Because that makes sense.

Everyone here apart from the fascists and fascist apologists understands Stoltenbergs quote, because it's really not hard not understand.
But since fascists and fascist apologists aren't really that smart they fail to even understand such a simple sentence.
Fascism really has lost much of its (albeit questionable) intellectual capacity since the 1940s.

But let me guess, you vote for Trump, like Qanon and think "the election" was stolen but somehow you are okay with sham elections at gunpoint in occupied Ukraine.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Regardless, Georgia and Ukraine were the red lines according to American and Russian diplomats, if it's fair to call them that.

There were never any treaties to that effect, and even if there were those treaties would be thoroughly unjustified since it would be denying Ukraine their natural sovereignty to deny them membership on the grounds of a more powerful country wanting to exert control on them.

Russia's signed agreements not to invade or threaten the sovereignty of Ukraine, however...

 

[Augustus]

Regardless, Georgia and Ukraine were the red lines according to American and Russian diplomats, if it's fair to call them that.

Quickly changed your tune there I see…

Do you believe powerful countries should have the right to unilaterally nominate other countries as their vassal states?

 

[lukethethird]

Please.... let's say how things are..let's play cards face up....please.
the immoral élites overseas wanted to dethrone Putin...
but didn't know how to do it.

So they started colonize Ukraine between 2012 and 2014 to provoke the Maidan coup. They wanted to install a proxy government hostile to Moscow and to the Russians.
And they succeeded. The merciless government of Poroshenko started to target Russian-speaking citizens, in Ukraine. Crimeans fortunately escaped this madness, by declaring their independence after a referendum.
The Odessa dissidents were murdered in that fire of 2014.

The Donbas people tried to resist through separatist groups, but the Kiev government was stronger and reacted violently against Donbas people.
The separatists tried to beg Moscow for military help.

Moscow refused. Saying that only diplomacy was the way: they used diplomacy through the two Minsk agreements.

The two Minsk agreements were not respected by Ukraine. Never.
We Europeans asked Ukrainians to respect the Minsk agreements, because unlike those horrific and despicable élites overseas, we want peace.

Putin gave Zelenskyy an ultimatum: either you respect the Minsk agreements, or we invade.
We sent Macron in February 2022 to convince Zelenskyy to implement the Minsk agreements, and Zelenskyy persuaded.

But some godless person overseas probably convinced Zelenskyy not to respect the Minsk agreements.
So he took it back.

Zelenskyy refused to implement the Minsk agreements and Putin invaded as a reaction. After 7 years of diplomatic attempts.

So...I am sorry, I reiterate it: the horrific plans of those élites overseas make Putin look like a saint, in comparison.

What they did was diabolical, devilish, Satanic.

Angela Merkel admitted that the Minsk agreements were a stalling technique giving Ukraine time to build up its arsenal. I suppose they were somehow expecting the invasion that was to come. Zelenski was elected on a platform promise of making peace with Donbas and Russia because peace is what the vast majority of Ukraines want. He did a 180 once elected, and at the eleventh hour refused to sign the peace treaty. I don't think all Europeans wanted peace otherwise Merkel would not have admitted to the Minsk agreements being written up in bad faith.

 

[lukethethird]

Prior to 2022 and the full Muscovite invasion of independent Ukraine after the partial invasion in 2014 the topic of NATO membership in countries like Finland or Sweden was dead.
Ukrainian membership was also not seen as something possible or really desirable from prominent NATO countries POV.
It was all dead. NATO itself was questioned by the likes of you.

And so NATO did nothing. Absolutely nothing.

And by doing nothing the Vatniks, Orcs and Tankies reckon NATO forced Muscovy to fully invade Ukraine.
Because apparently doing nothing and not seeking new members close to Muscovy was somehow and attack on Muscovy.

Because that makes sense.

Everyone here apart from the fascists and fascist apologists understands Stoltenbergs quote, because it's really not hard not understand.
But since fascists and fascist apologists aren't really that smart they fail to even understand such a simple sentence.
Fascism really has lost much of its (albeit questionable) intellectual capacity since the 1940s.

But let me guess, you vote for Trump, like Qanon and think "the election" was stolen but somehow you are okay with sham elections at gunpoint in occupied Ukraine.

This is the sort of rhetoric I have come to expect. Your baseless rant leaves me with nothing to respond to.

 

[Estro Felino]

Angela Merkel admitted that the Minsk agreements were a stalling technique giving Ukraine time to build up its arsenal.

We still have videos.
But the they will say it wasn't her. But an impersonator.
So that's the level of the discussion, here.

I suppose they were somehow expecting the invasion that was to come. Zekenski was elected on a platform promise of making peace with Donbas and Russia because peace is what the vast majority of Ukraines want.

I know. They swarm into Germany and Italy and they tell us they escape a horrific regime that forces them to fight.
Against their will.

I don't think all Europeans wanted peace otherwise Merkel would not have admitted to the Minsk agreements being written up in bad faith.

Merkel is not "Europeans".
Europe is mostly made by countries who would never okay a war on the European borders.
For instance... in France there are anti-NATO protests every other day.
So... European leaders know the people's sentiment and don't want demonstrations.

 

[lukethethird]

Quickly changed your tune there I see…

Do you believe powerful countries should have the right to unilaterally nominate other countries as their vassal states?

No change, I have said this all along.

In reality it is a matter of might, not saying that it is right, it is the way it is, tribal, nothing civil about it.