nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg admits and boasts about nato provoking Putin to invade

[Estro Felino]

The war didn't start in February last year.
The war started in 2014.
And since 2014 NATO allies have provided support to Ukraine, with training, with equipment.
So that the Ukrainian forces would be much stronger in 2022 than they were in 2014.

Jens Stoltenberg.

I have a video, and many international lawyers have that too.

 

[Flankerl]

This is the sort of rhetoric I have come to expect. Your baseless rant leaves me with nothing to respond to.

Sure sure.

You know you could just deny any sort of associations.
Pretty easy, watch: I am not a fascist, neither do I like Trump or would vote for him, also the last US presidential election was valid.

Now you.

Angela Merkel admitted that the Minsk agreements were a stalling technique giving Ukraine time to build up its arsenal. I suppose they were somehow expecting the invasion that was to come. Zelenski was elected on a platform promise of making peace with Donbas and Russia because peace is what the vast majority of Ukraines want. He did a 180 once elected, and at the eleventh hour refused to sign the peace treaty. I don't think all Europeans wanted peace otherwise Merkel would not have admitted to the Minsk agreements being written up in bad faith.

Funny.
In the mind of the fascist aligned the Minsk treaties are seen as NATO war rumblings.
Meanwhile in Ukraine they were seen as treason towards Ukraine.
Also Merkel has lost all credibility since then.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No change, I have said this all along.

In reality it is a matter of might, not saying that it is right, it is the way it is, tribal, nothing civil about it.

Finally, you admit it. You believe powerful countries should have the right to boss around smaller countries.

Totally an anti-imperialist position.

 

[lukethethird]

The war didn't start in February last year.
The war started in 2014.
And since 2014 NATO allies have provided support to Ukraine, with training, with equipment.
So that the Ukrainian forces would be much stronger in 2022 than they were in 2014.

Jens Stoltenberg.

I have a video, and many international lawyers have that too.

You quoted Jens Stoltenberg who lets things slip by saying these things out loud. Expect accusations of being a Putin apologist to follow.

 

[Estro Felino]

Finally, you admit it. You believe powerful countries should have the right to boss around smaller countries.

Totally an anti-imperialist position.

As the United States does with the Americas.
Monroe doctrine.

 

[lukethethird]

Finally, you admit it. You believe powerful countries should have the right to boss around smaller countries.

Totally an anti-imperialist position.

You have a serious comprehension disadvantage. Comprehension challenged as it were.

 

[Estro Felino]

You quoted Jens Stoltenberg who lets things slip by saying these things out loud. Expect accusations of being a Putin apologist to follow.

I got the video. Authenticated.
They will say it wasn't him...but an impersonator.

Or God knows what they will invent.

 

[Watchmen]

This thread of lies is still around? Shocking.

 

[Augustus]

No change, I have said this all along.

In reality it is a matter of might, not saying that it is right, it is the way it is, tribal, nothing civil about it.

So if Russia chose to use force “because it can” not because it is right, why defend their actions?

Do you personally think it is wrong for powerful countries unilaterally nominate other countries as their vassal states?

 

[Estro Felino]

You have a serious comprehension disadvantage. Comprehension challenged as it were.

Some of those who want Ukraine to fight against Russians, don't even want Ukraine to join the EU and NATO.

They probably want Ukraine to remain in a limbo of uncertainty, so Ukrainians can be used as cannon fodder against Putin.
That's horrendous.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You have a serious comprehension disadvantage. Comprehension challenged as it were.

It's literally what you're saying. Russia should have the right to determine, by threat of force, what alliances countries on their borders make, with no recourse or repercussion.

Do you or do you not believe that Ukraine has a right to defend itself against invasion, and countries threatening violence against other countries in order to keep those countries weak and under their influence is bad?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You quoted Jens Stoltenberg who lets things slip by saying these things out loud. Expect accusations of being a Putin apologist to follow.

Nothing they said even remotely has the implications you claim it does. And yet, you have the audacity to accuse me of having difficulties in comprehension.

Do you want me to explain this to you?

Again?

 

[lukethethird]

So if Russia chose to use force “because it can” not because it is right, why defend their actions?

Do you personally think it is wrong for powerful countries unilaterally nominate other countries as their vassal states?

No one is defending their actions, they are criminal.

I said it wasn't right, do I have to repeat myself?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No one is defending their actions, they are criminal.

You have repeatedly blamed NATO for Russia's actions, said it was a trap, said it was provoked, said it was a plot to weaken Russia for invasion, said that Russia genuinely feared invasion, claimed that Russia was preventing war crimes in Ukraine, made statements like "Who WOULD want an army on their border?", claimed Ukraine was manipulated by the US into rejecting close relations with Russia and installed an anti-Russia government, and have constantly deflected any criticism of Russia by pointing to other countries having done similar things.

I said it wasn't right, do I have to repeat myself?

So you agree that it's not right. So, what should be done about it? Should we just allow Ukraine to be rolled over by Russia or not?

 

[lukethethird]

It's literally what you're saying. Russia should have the right to determine, by threat of force, what alliances countries on their borders make, with no recourse or repercussion.

Do you or do you not believe that Ukraine has a right to defend itself against invasion, and countries threatening violence against other countries in order to keep those countries weak and under their influence is bad?

Again I said it wasn't right, this is where you have a serious problem with comprehension. We have seen these sorts of behaviours from nation states since their inceptions, not condoning them.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Again I said it wasn't right, this is where you have a serious problem with comprehension.

You said "it is the way it is", suggesting there is nothing that can be done about it. But something CAN be done about it. Ukraine can defend itself and its allies can support it.

Apparently, you are against that.

We have seen these sorts of behaviours from nation states since their inceptions, not condoning them.

Then what do you think SHOULD be done when a country like Russia - one known for threatening and annexing territory along its border if it cannot install a puppet government - threatens a country if it tries to join a military alliance to prevent Russia from invading it? Should that threat mean that said country should not be granted the basic sovereignty of being allowed to try and join international organisations it wants to, or do you think belligerent, imperialist, authoritarian regimes should not get a say in what countries under threat of their invasion get to do with regards to their international relations?

Time to nut up or shut up.

 

[lukethethird]

You have repeatedly blamed NATO for Russia's actions, said it was a trap, said it was provoked, said it was a plot to weaken Russia for invasion, said that Russia genuinely feared invasion, claimed that Russia was preventing war crimes in Ukraine, made statements like "Who WOULD want an army on their border?", claimed Ukraine was manipulated by the US into rejecting close relations with Russia and installed an anti-Russia government, and have constantly deflected any criticism of Russia by pointing to other countries having done similar things.


So you agree that it's not right. So, what should be done about it? Should we just allow Ukraine to be rolled over by Russia or not?

It appears that it is up to the neocons in Washington when to make peace. Who knows, they might be waiting until every last available fighter in Ukraine is dead. When is Russia and Washington going to come to their senses?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

This whole ridiculous ordeal reminds me of the Aesop fable, "The Scorpion and the Frog". As I remember it:

Once upon a time in a forest, a frog was happily sitting near the edge of a river and enjoying the sun coming through the leaves in the trees. Suddenly, he heard a faint, slightly sinister voice call to him;
"Excuse me, Mr Frog."
The frog looked to the bank of the river and saw, with some small degree of alarm, a scorpion.
"I am terribly sorry to bother you," said the scorpion, "But I need to get to the other side of this river, and I am unable to swim. Is there a chance, Mr Frog, that you might carry me on your back across to the other side?"
"But, aren't you a scorpion?" asked the frog, trembling slightly.
"That's correct." responded the scorpion, politely.
"So, won't you sting me with your tail while I carry you?" asked the frog.
The scorpion chuckled slightly.
"Why, of course not! If I were to do that, then we would both drown in the lake!" he assured.
The frog thought about this for a moment, but seeing the logic in the scorpion's position, eventually agreed to allow the scorpion onto his back. So up he went, and the frog began carrying him over the river to the other side.
When halfway across, however, the scorpion stung the frog.
As the venom coursed through the frog's body and they both began to sink into the rushing water, the frog weakly cried out;
"Why did you do that?? Now, we shall both perish!"
The scorpion tutted.
"Don't blame me," he said, "You knew I was a scorpion when you met me."

 

[ajay0]

Apparently, you are against that.


Then what do you think SHOULD be done when a country like Russia - one known for threatening and annexing territory along its border if it cannot install a puppet government - threatens a country if it tries to join a military alliance to prevent Russia from invading it? Should that threat mean that said country should not be granted the basic sovereignty of being allowed to try and join international organisations it wants to, or do you think belligerent, imperialist, authoritarian regimes should not get a say in what countries under threat of their invasion get to do with regards to their international relations?

Dude, you have to look at the bigger picture. Nuclear-armed Russia can bring about a nuclear holocaust which will render all this talk of basic sovereignty and defensive alliances as nonsensical. What's the use of sovereignty when you are living in a radioactive cesspool !

Emotivity and reactivity will not get anywhere. We need to look at the bigger picture dispassionately and act accordingly so that tiny sparks will not lead to mass annihilations.

 

[ajay0]

Putin got played like a fiddle, Nato sucked Russia into a proxy war with the US, and Ukraine is paying the price because Ukraine is the battlefield. I don't expect you to understand, it doesn't follow the narrative that corporate media feeds you.

This is what the whole thing is all about. Weapons sales and profits is the name of the game. American intellectuals have warned about this numerous times to no avail...

In a capitalist society the mass media are capitalist institutions. The fact that these institutions reflect the ideology of dominant economic interests is hardly surprising. ~ Noam Chomsky


“In actual fact it would seem that during the Cold War, if not during World War II, this country has become frankly a warfare state built on affluence, a power structure in which the interests of big business, the obsessions of the military, and the phobias of political extremists both dominate and dictate our national policy.

It also seems that the people of the country are by and large reduced to passivity, confusion, resentment, frustration, thoughtlessness and ignorance, so that they blindly follow any line that is unraveled for them by the mass media.” ~ Thomas Merton, Cold War Letters


“The media's the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. Because they control the minds of the masses.” ~ Malcolm X